Shaken Faith Syndrome - What brings it on

[The Folk Prophet]

LiterateParakeet, on 24 Nov 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

But shaken-faith can happen to any of us.

 

I'm interested LitPara. You're applying personal experience to ALL the world. That strikes me as a stretch. As much as I accept that any of us can fall away if we do not remain diligent in our obedience, study, faith, prayers, and the like, the context of your post seems to imply that it can hit anyone in spite of these things. I would be interested in hearing more about your experience (if your comfortable sharing) and how you have come to this conclusion, assuiming I'm not reading too much into it.

 

As a broader discussion, I'd like to discuss the causes of shaken faith syndrome and what we can do to avoid or overcome it.

[Anddenex]

1 Nephi 8, is the greatest chapter for shaken faith.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 Nephi 8, is the greatest chapter for shaken faith.

 

What, no link?

 

You lazy...

 

:)  Heheh.

 

So I don't know. Shaken faith syndrome doesn't necessarily mean we let go of the rod of iron. It may mean we're considering it. But...I dunno. Thoughts?

Edited November 26, 2014 by The Folk Prophet

[estradling75]

 

As a broader discussion, I'd like to discuss the causes of shaken faith syndrome and what we can do to avoid or overcome it.

 

 

 

To generalize the cause for shaken faith requires us to be very generic...  I would say it is caused by one of our personally chosen foundational assumptions being proved wrong in our own eyes.

 

For example if we believe that God would never let X happen.  Then X happens. Then by the logical and rational setup the person has created for themselves they suddenly either question the existence of God and/or need to reevaluate everything they thought they knew.  That is the essence of Shaken Faith Syndrome

[Anddenex]

What, no link?

 

You lazy...

 

:)  Heheh.

 

So I don't know. Shaken faith syndrome doesn't necessarily mean we let go of the rod of iron. It may mean we're considering it. But...I dunno. Thoughts?

 

I think it important to note that within this chapter, 1 Nephi 8, (LINKED!) -- is that those who were shaken from the faith "clinged" to the rod.  In other words, they were holding to the rod, but were not "holding fast" to the rod, and were easily persuaded by the "finger of scorn" from the great and spacious building. 

 

Elder Bednar pointed this out in one of his CES devotionals.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Anddenex

[The Folk Prophet]

To generalize the cause for shaken faith requires us to be very generic...  I would say it is caused by one of our personally chosen foundational assumptions being proved wrong in our own eyes.

 

For example if we believe that God would never let X happen.  Then X happens. Then by the logical and rational setup the person has created for themselves they suddenly either question the existence of God and/or need to reevaluate everything they thought they knew.  That is the essence of Shaken Faith Syndrome

 

I read the article on said shaken faith and this was basically what it said too. But I'm not sure I buy it. We ALL learn new things as we go that challenge our foundational assumptions. Some of us it throws. Some of us it does not. So that explanation is not viable in my mind as a root cause.

[The Folk Prophet]

Elder Bednar pointed this out in one of his general conference talks.

 

Aaarrggghhh. Another no-linker!! Anddenex!!

Edited November 26, 2014 by The Folk Prophet

[Anddenex]

Aaarrggghhh. Another no-linker!! Anddenex!!

 

What, check again.

[The Folk Prophet]

What, check again.

 

Do you want me to fix the quote in my post too so no one is the wiser?

[estradling75]

I read the article on said shaken faith and this was basically what it said too. But I'm not sure I buy it. We ALL learn new things as we go that challenge our foundational assumptions. Some of us it throws. Some of us it does not. So that explanation is not viable in my mind as a root cause.

 

Why wouldn't it be?  All you need to add is individual tolerance for foundation shaking.  Some will handle it well and many more will handle it poorly.  

[The Folk Prophet]

Why wouldn't it be?  All you need to add is individual tolerance for foundation shaking.  Some will handle it well and many more will handle it poorly.  

 

Well now we're getting at it. What, indeed, are the variables that define individual tolerance?

[Anddenex]

Do you want me to fix the quote in my post too so no one is the wiser?

 

What fix?

 

In the background:

 

Anddenex, moves his right hand across the horizon while speaking softly, "You will update the quote so no one is the wiser."

 

The Folk Prophet, updates quote.

[Vort]

Do you want me to fix the quote in my post too so no one is the wiser?

Or we can just assume you edited it out to make Anddenex look bad.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

TFP, I have to run right now, but I'll come back and talk to you in more depth later.  

 

The reason I think shaken faith can happen to anyone is not just because of my own experience, but those of many other people in the scriptures, or real life...Judas, many friends of Joseph Smith, many personal friends.

 

I further "submit as evidence"...Pres. Uchtdorf's conference address, "Lord Is It I?"  I just reread that recently, and I was struck by something.  Notice Jesus was not talking about something frivolous, like "tonight someone is going to take the last piece of bread."  No, He said someone would betray Him.  That is even worse than shaken faith...and yet all the apostles had the humility to say, "Lord is it I?"

 

I think to not admit it could happen to you (you general) is prideful.  We need to be like the apostles and humbly ask, "Lord is it I?"  And then do all we can to make sure it isn't.

 

I'll come back later and talk about some of the things I have seen that shake people's faith.  Oh and while you are waiting, you could just read The Crucible of Doubt by Terrell and Fiona Givens.  (I'm teasing of course...take a few days...   :) )

 

Edited to add:  I'll be happy to share my personal experience as well.  The "Jaws of Hell" I call it.  :)

Edited November 26, 2014 by LiterateParakeet

[The Folk Prophet]

What fix?

 

In the background:

 

Anddenex, moves his right hand across the horizon while speaking softly, "You will update the quote so no one is the wiser."

 

The Folk Prophet, updates quote.

 

What...where am I? How did I get here?!

[classylady]

Perhaps, the ability to remain faithful, and not doubt, even through certain trials, is a Spiritual Gift.  It could be an innate spiritual quality that a spirit/person was born with.  I look at it as a blessing.

[The Folk Prophet]

Perhaps, the ability to remain faithful, and not doubt, even through certain trials, is a Spiritual Gift.  It could be an innate spiritual quality that a spirit/person was born with.  I look at it as a blessing.

 

As for me, I vote adamantly no on this idea.

 

Faith is a spiritual gift. But that in no way alleviates our agency in the matter. Having faith is not luck of the draw. It is a choice. It is a gift given because of our choices and actions.

 

I don't buy this naturally more inclined thing. We are all naturally inclined to be enemies to God. We choose to do otherwise in spite of our natural inclinations, or we give in to our natural inclinations. It is the same for all.

 

Those who doubt are not victims.

 

I've been thinking about faith a bit lately and what it actually is and means.

 

If we consider usage of the word in ways other than gospel discussions, I believe, it helps to clarify what faith actually is. The most common understanding of faith is "belief".But it is so much more than that. If, for example, my wife tells me she has faith in me, what is she really saying? That she believes I exist? No. What she means is that she trusts me. Another usage of the word is in the term "faithful". If we are faithful, what does it mean? It means we are loyal.

 

These two meaning combined, rather than belief help us understand what faith actually is. Belief is part of it, sure. But to have faith is to trust in God, and to be loyal to Him. And those things are things we choose, regardless of our capability to understand, which varies widely.

 

Coming across something that challenges our foundational thinking throws some because they are not committed to something else. They do not fully trust in something greater. If we trust in our testimony of the book of Mormon, trust in the spiritual witness we have received, then finding out any fact about the book, it's origin, or any so-called evidence against it would wash over us. Our trust and commitment remains sure.

 

This trust and commitment, of course, should not be blind. We need the assurance of the Spirit. But when that assurance is given, to then maintain commitment and trust in spite of the waves that may come IS what faith is. And that is a choice.

[Crypto]

Per Lectures on Faith, Prepared by the Prophet Joseph Smith [with/and/or his fellow contemporaries]

 

 

3. First, faith itself--what it is.

...

7. The author of the epistle to the Hebrews, in the eleventh chapter of that epistle and first verse, gives the following definition of the word faith:

8. "Now faith is the substance [assurance] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"

9. From this we learn that faith is the assurance which men have of the existence of things which they have not seen, and the principle of action in all intelligent beings.

10. If men were duly to consider themselves, and turn their thoughts and reflections to the operations of their own minds, they would readily discover that it is faith, and faith only, which is the moving cause of all action in them; without it both mind and body would be in a state of inactivity, and all their exertions would cease, both physical and mental.

Both faith and doubt are choices. But I wouldn't go so far as saying "those who doubt are not victims"
 

 

 

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

The very act of being deceived strikes me as becoming a victim. (and I would guess false prophets would be one potential cause of shaking someone's faith)

 

People believe many things, but just because you believe something doesn't mean it will make a difference in how you act. There are people who believe in the church, with opportunity to progress, but never take part. Faith is more than belief, not only do you believe, but you have trust enough that it rises you to action. (somewhat similar to what you said Folk Prophet)

When a preconceived notion of what your faith is based on, what you believe, what is acceptable in the eye of god, turns out to be different that what you expect, faith can be shaken. This depends on how strongly or important the notion seemed to be. It's called in psychology cognitive dissonance.
When someone is unable to resolve this dissonance, we sometimes call it shaken faith syndrome.

For some people that includes questioning whether or not they were really feeling the spirit. Which is tricky, if not impossible to define intellectually. As the foundation crumbles, things begin to get worse. Which is why it is important to build upon a strong foundation

Matthew 7

 

 

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

How can this happen to anyone?
 

 

 

 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

It may not happen to everyone, but it seems according to my own interpretation of this scripture, that it could even possibly be a threat to those who are very elect.


When I graduated high school, a ward member gave each of the graduates a book. I don't remember now what it was called, but one thing I remember from it is that a testimony is composed of three things.

 

Spiritual (Faith, the Spirit),

Intellectual (Knowledge, Logic, Evidence, Understanding), and

Experience (seems to describe itself  )

 

Ever seek to strengthen each component. Seek to strengthen your testimony.

 

This is how I personally see it.
The spirit is the foundation and the most important I think, without it no one would act in faith, convert to it, and achieve growth.

Experience is how we confirm it, learn to recognize it, Doing good works is one way of helping build experience. (It acts as a second witness to the spirit)

Intellectual is one way we can learn about it, and defend it. There is just enough evidence to allow one to act in faith, but not with a perfect knowledge. (It acts as a third witness to the spirit)

[yjacket]

I think the reasons for doubt and shaken faith are probably as varied as the individuals who go through it. But I think a significant reason is the inability to fully comprehend the actions of individuals who acted over 150 years ago in a different time, culture, era, reasoning etc.

 

Joseph Smith is as far from the founding of Charles Town in the 1660s as we are from him.  He could no less conceive of life prior to the Revolution as we can of his life.

 

A simple spark of a spiritual experience can set us on a path where when we choose to believe our eyes are opened and we can see the beauty of God around us.  But I think ultimately it is a choice.  Now I've had many spiritual experiences, but ultimately I believe because I choose to believe.   

[classylady]

As for me, I vote adamantly no on this idea.

 

Faith is a spiritual gift. But that in no way alleviates our agency in the matter. Having faith is not luck of the draw. It is a choice. It is a gift given because of our choices and actions.

 

I don't buy this naturally more inclined thing. We are all naturally inclined to be enemies to God. We choose to do otherwise in spite of our natural inclinations, or we give in to our natural inclinations. It is the same for all.

 

 

 

 

I agree that faith is a choice.  But, I also have seen people who are innately more believing.  From my experience, I have seen new born babies born with their own unique personalities and type of spirituality.  I believe that some spirits that are born on this earth can come with an innate spirituality that is stronger than others.  I believe that in the preexistence, some spirits were more valiant than others.  When those strong spirits  come to earth, I believe that spirit comes with them.  Can their spirituality be added upon?  Yes.  Can they lose it?  Yes.  Look at the parable of the talents.  Some were given more than others.  What we have been given we should strive to add to it, not hide it.  And, I believe that we can be born with certain gifts of the spirit.  And, I also believe that if we seek after other gifts, that we can also be given those gifts.  We can be "added upon".  So, I agree with you in that it can be a choice.  But, I also believe, because I have seen it with my own children and grandchildren, that these sweet little spirits can be born with innate gifts.  Now, whether they add upon it as they become adults, or lose it by the choices they make, then definitely it can be a choice.  Some people are born with the ability to have more faith, and others may be born with a "Doubting Thomas" personality.  Some personalities can just accept, others seem to question everything.

 

My patriarchal blessing points out several of my spiritual gifts that I have been given.  I believe I was born with those gifts, because, I certainly didn't seek after them as a child or young adult.  And, I know I had those gifts even at a young age.  But, now what do I do with them?  I know I need to continue to add upon those spiritual gifts, and seek after others.

Edited November 26, 2014 by classylady

[prisonchaplain]

University is a time that is documented for faith being not only shaken, but left.  I heard a statistic recently that nearly 90% of Christians who go to public or secular universities end up leaving their faith.  Those who attend faith-based schools still shed about one third.  Reasons could vary from discovering that there is a lot more knowledge available than my church exposed me to, to giving in to a hostile anti-Christian campus culture, to finally being out from under parents' watch, and just realizing that I never really believed it for myself--not in a thinking way.

 

As for non-university faith shakings--as has been mentioned--healings that did not come, not 'feeling it' when everyone else seems to, prophecies that do not come to pass, or, sometimes, superior sounding teachings.

 

Solution?  Wrestle as Job did, but do not succumb as Judas did.

[Guest]

Beware the Theologian, lest he ruins your faith.

 

 

I've been through a lot of faith-shaking things.  All of it usually starts with something that I find contradicts a deeply held testimony - or some teaching that tested out "wrong".  But, through it all, I've always held fast to one thing - the intense desire to answer the question of "Why Am I Here?" and that always led me back to God and a re-thinking of my testimony which usually ends up just needing another look from a different perspective.  Through my growing up years, I've stuck to the Catholic faith as it is where I found the answer to the question... until I became LDS...

 

If it wasn't for this process of faith-shaking, I wouldn't know how my testimony would have been established as my personality has always been the - "it needs to make sense" - type, which goes through that shaking.  A lot of people don't learn in the manner that I do.  They have this ability to take things by faith even if it doesn't make sense at the time and stick with it until it does make sense.  So the faith-shaking doesn't really happen much - they hold strong to the rod.

 

Now, of course, I believe that the LDS Church is true... so it could be that this faith-shaking method of learning that I have developed was designed for my specific Spirit that chose to be born a Catholic...

Edited November 26, 2014 by anatess

[The Folk Prophet]

Per Lectures on Faith, Prepared by the Prophet Joseph Smith [with/and/or his fellow contemporaries]

 

Both faith and doubt are choices. But I wouldn't go so far as saying "those who doubt are not victims"

 

The very act of being deceived strikes me as becoming a victim. (and I would guess false prophets would be one potential cause of shaking someone's faith)

 

People believe many things, but just because you believe something doesn't mean it will make a difference in how you act. There are people who believe in the church, with opportunity to progress, but never take part. Faith is more than belief, not only do you believe, but you have trust enough that it rises you to action. (somewhat similar to what you said Folk Prophet)

When a preconceived notion of what your faith is based on, what you believe, what is acceptable in the eye of god, turns out to be different that what you expect, faith can be shaken. This depends on how strongly or important the notion seemed to be. It's called in psychology cognitive dissonance.

When someone is unable to resolve this dissonance, we sometimes call it shaken faith syndrome.

For some people that includes questioning whether or not they were really feeling the spirit. Which is tricky, if not impossible to define intellectually. As the foundation crumbles, things begin to get worse. Which is why it is important to build upon a strong foundation

Matthew 7

How can this happen to anyone?

 

It may not happen to everyone, but it seems according to my own interpretation of this scripture, that it could even possibly be a threat to those who are very elect.

When I graduated high school, a ward member gave each of the graduates a book. I don't remember now what it was called, but one thing I remember from it is that a testimony is composed of three things.

 

Spiritual (Faith, the Spirit),

Intellectual (Knowledge, Logic, Evidence, Understanding), and

Experience (seems to describe itself  )

 

Ever seek to strengthen each component. Seek to strengthen your testimony.

 

This is how I personally see it.

The spirit is the foundation and the most important I think, without it no one would act in faith, convert to it, and achieve growth.

Experience is how we confirm it, learn to recognize it, Doing good works is one way of helping build experience. (It acts as a second witness to the spirit)

Intellectual is one way we can learn about it, and defend it. There is just enough evidence to allow one to act in faith, but not with a perfect knowledge. (It acts as a third witness to the spirit)

 

I like a lot of what you say. But I cannot get on board with the victim thing. It denies agency.

 

No one who loses their salvation will be victims of it. They will choose it.

[The Folk Prophet]

A simple spark of a spiritual experience can set us on a path where when we choose to believe our eyes are opened and we can see the beauty of God around us.  But I think ultimately it is a choice.  Now I've had many spiritual experiences, but ultimately I believe because I choose to believe.   

 

Yes!!!

 

So many people seem to think that we who believe just do so magically or something. Or those antagonistic call us brainwashed. But this is my view exactly -- I believe because I choose to.

[writesong]

Brethren and Sistren:

 

When I was twenty-one years old, as a convert to The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints, I was baptized on Saturday 06 May 1967.

 

Today, there have been so many changes in our Church (as in all other churches), that my personal faith is FREQUENTLY shaken to the very core by the pronouncements and/or actions emanating from Salt Lake City, Utah.

 

Indeed, my faith is further challenged by what has become of our beloved "Promised Land", the United States of America.

 

Unlike so many others, I do NOT separate Church and State, as within our unique religion, the miraculous history of the United States of America, along with our divinely inspired Constitution of the United States of America, and even the State of Israel, are inseparably intertwined with The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints.

 

Thus, when there is corruption in one, there becomes corruption in all of those entities.

 

So, what do I do in this situation?

 

I turn to JOHN 6: 66 - 69, and follow the example of Peter.

 

Thank you.