Ferguson After Action: Do white conservatives need to talk less and listen more?

[jerome1232]

Anatess, you are right that I forgot to take the %'s into consideration.  Thanks JustAGuy.

 

Considering that Blacks make up only 14% of the population, it is even more alarming that they are 21 times more likely to be shot by police than whites.  http://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white

Probably has to do with them committing 49% of the homicides and 54% of the robberies. One would think that's a pretty easy cause effect relationship to see.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

So, I read of their anger, but I see terms like "Whites" "White society," etc., and I feel condemned--because of my race.  My feelings my compounded in the LDS community because a little over a hundred years ago your ancestors were being chased out of places, on threat of serious violence.

 

PC, I'm glad you brought this up.  I have wondered why LDS are not more understanding in this situation precisely because

 

a) we have been unfairly targeted for violence

b  ) we appealed to the Federal Government and received no assistance

c) SOME LDS were apparently pushed beyond their limits and turned to fighting violence with violence resulting in the the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

 

Before someone says, "but we moved on"...we were able to move on because we fled to Utah and escaped the persecution.  In a place free of persecution, we began to grow and thrive.  The problems Black people are angry about today are things that are happening today.  When their persecution stops, they will also be able to begin to grow and thrive as a culture.  I have met many fine Black people that are already making that leap in spite of the odds stacked against them.  I think they are very impressive people.

Edited December 2, 2014 by LiterateParakeet

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Probably has to do with them committing 49% of the homicides and 54% of the robberies. One would think that's a pretty easy cause effect relationship to see.

 

I could accept that--it is a reasonable argument--if there were not so many stories of young, unarmed black men being killed by police.  Here are the ones I know about so far...

 

Dontre Hamilton

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mikehayes/dontre-hamilton-autopsy

 

John Crawford

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/9/25/no_charges_in_ohio_police_killing

 

http://www.inquisitr.com/1464363/walmart-shooting-john-crawford-911/

 

Jonathon Ferrell

http://www.buzzfeed.com/adriancarrasquillo/officer-who-shot-young-black-man-after-he-was-in-car-acciden

 

Tamir Rice

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2854617/Cops-shot-12-year-old-Tamir-Rice-dead-holding-BB-gun-did-not-aid-watched-lie-agony-died-just-hours-later.html

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/26/cleveland-shot-boy/19548827/

 

Eric Garner

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/29/grand-jury-decision-eric-garner_n_6240348.html

 

Some will say, "but those officers were afraid for their lives"...were the officers in the stories below not also afraid for their lives? Yet, these men didn't get killed...

 

Lance Tamayo

http://www.10news.com/news/man-shot-by-police-in-mission-bay-identified-as-lance-tamayo

 

Sandon Sierad

http://thedailybanter.com/2014/08/police-dont-shoot-and-kill-violent-white-man-at-walmart/

 

James Holmes

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/20/us/colorado-theater-shooting/

 

Just to clarify...I'm not against police officers.  I am grateful for them.  I realize they work a very dangerous job, and I could never do what they do.  I'm grateful they are willing.  

 

But I am also well aware of how power can change people.  I saw it first hand when I worked as a Correctional Officer (prison guard....you say prison guard, I say Correctional Officer...LOL)  One of the nicest guys in my academy class turned into an absolute monster on the yard.  All of us, officers, were afraid for him if ever there was a riot.  

 

So while I respect police officers and appreciate the good ones, it's inevitable that some will let that power go to their heads. And when they do, and they are armed...that is a dangerous combination.

 

To be fair, Blacks aren't the only victims of corrupt officers:

[Palerider]

Over the weekend here in St Louis a Serbian man was killed. He was beat to death by 3 teenagers aged 15-17. This took place about 2 in the morning. They have been arrested those responsible. The man was walking to his car and they approached him and got into an argument. The three kids used hammers. This was in South St Louis City.

[prisonchaplain]

Your statistics suggest that African-Americans are over represented in crimes/robberies by between 3 and 4-fold.  Yet LP tells us that they are shot at 21-fold that of Whites.

 

There are likely many reasons for these numbers.  However, it does seem reasonable that the African-American community believes police are too quick to shoot their young men.

Probably has to do with them committing 49% of the homicides and 54% of the robberies. One would think that's a pretty easy cause effect relationship to see.

[Just_A_Guy]

Pale - I believe he was a Bosnian (some people would get mighty offended to have you confuse the two!   )

 

LP - I think we very well may have an issue with police brutality in this country.  But I think Brown is a miserable poster boy for getting the problem addressed.  (History of creepy stalking aside, Utah's own Darrien Hunt is a much better candidate.)  And going over the instances you cite where the perps weren't killed:  Tamayo was shot, and Holmes--for all the monstrosity of his crime--seems not to have resisted arrest.  And while I give kudos to the Greenville PD for having successfully used nonlethal force to subdue Sierad at the risk of their own lives--I don't think cops should be legally required to do so.

 

I expect cops to put themselves in places where they may get hit, or even shot.  But once the fists or bullets actually start flying, I don't expect them to put themselves at extra risk just to avoid killing the person who initiated the altercation.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

  And while I give kudos to the Greenville PD for having successfully used nonlethal force to subdue Sierad at the risk of their own lives--I don't think cops should be legally required to do so.

 

I expect cops to put themselves in places where they may get hit, or even shot.  But once the fists or bullets actually start flying, I don't expect them to put themselves at extra risk just to avoid killing the person who initiated the altercation.

 

I agree that police should not endanger their own lives.  But you can see why Blacks might feel targeted, right?  The thing that gets me with these stories though, is that with Tamayo they reasoned with him before shooting and then they only shoot him once.  Compare that with 12 yr old Tamir Rice, who was shot instantly...and then not given first aid for until another police unit arrived.  Or compare Sierad with John Crawford.  They struggled with Sierad, with John they just shot him on the spot.  

I'm not asking you to agree, only to understand how Black people (and White Allies like me) see it.  

Again, I'm really not saying all police officers are bad.  Perhaps if the same police officers that responded to Tamayo and Sierad had responded to Tamir Rice and John Crawford, the latter would still be alive.

[Guest MormonGator]

I agree that police should not endanger their own lives.  But you can see why Blacks might feel targeted, right?  

Oh, I totally, one hundred precent agree! 

[jerome1232]

Wow prison chaplain, that is eye opening.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

 

My own personal belief is that black people, as a group, are just as intelligent, able, moral, and spiritual as any other racial group. I think that the culture we associate with black America has been infected, twisted, and perverted 

 

I expect my great-grandchildren will speak Spanish. That's probably good news from a societal perspective.

 

Vort, this is our common ground.  (There may be more, but I'll have to mull it over when I'm not seriously sleep deprived.)

About your grand-children speaking Spanish--if they are bilingual, that would be good news.  You know Europeans mock us over the language issue?  I actually love this joke...

 

What do you call someone who speaks three languages?

Tri-lingual

 

What do you call someone who speaks two languages?

Bi-lingual

 

What do you call someone who speaks only one language?

American

 

Bahaha...sorry, but it is funny to me.  

[Vort]

More European superiority blather. I don't find it funny, I find it tiresome.

 

I speak English pretty well, am reasonably fluent in Italian, and get by in Spanish and French. And as poor as my French and Spanish might be, they are as good as or better than (in some cases, much better than) the "English" spoken by many Europeans who consider themselves "bilingual" in English. (With the notable exception of Scandanavians, who seem to all speak English, usually better than many native speakers.)

 

Oh, yes, and I'm American. And in my circle of acquaintances, I'm not that unusual.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Vort, so we can agree that speaking more than one language is a good thing.  :)  

 

Almost everyone I work with is Bilingual but it is a job requirement (with the exception of those Grandfathered in), but other than that and return missionaries....I don't know anyone who is bilingual or more.  

 

Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack the thread or give offense.  I was just having fun with you.  My apologies.  :)

[Vort]

You don't need to apologize. My curmudgeonly response was to the topic and the joke, not to you personally.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Thanks Vort.

 

Okay getting back on topic...  ""From 2006 to 2012 a white police officer killed a black person at least twice a week in this country,"  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/16/melissa-harris-perry-black-men-killed-by-police_n_5684588.html

[Palerider]

Pale - I believe he was a Bosnian (some people would get mighty offended to have you confuse the two!   )

 

LP - I think we very well may have an issue with police brutality in this country.  But I think Brown is a miserable poster boy for getting the problem addressed.  (History of creepy stalking aside, Utah's own Darrien Hunt is a much better candidate.)  And going over the instances you cite where the perps weren't killed:  Tamayo was shot, and Holmes--for all the monstrosity of his crime--seems not to have resisted arrest.  And while I give kudos to the Greenville PD for having successfully used nonlethal force to subdue Sierad at the risk of their own lives--I don't think cops should be legally required to do so.

 

I expect cops to put themselves in places where they may get hit, or even shot.  But once the fists or bullets actually start flying, I don't expect them to put themselves at extra risk just to avoid killing the person who initiated the altercation.

You are correct....no idea why I said Serbian when I meant Bosnian. They had a large group of people gather in the area where this took place on Sunday evening. They believe it was a hate crime. No motive has been given yet. Where all this went down is really around the corner from where my daughter and son in law live.

[Just_A_Guy]

I agree that police should not endanger their own lives.  But you can see why Blacks might feel targeted, right?  The thing that gets me with these stories though, is that with Tamayo they reasoned with him before shooting and then they only shoot him once.  Compare that with 12 yr old Tamir Rice, who was shot instantly...and then not given first aid for until another police unit arrived.  Or compare Sierad with John Crawford.  They struggled with Sierad, with John they just shot him on the spot.  

I'm not asking you to agree, only to understand how Black people (and White Allies like me) see it.  

Again, I'm really not saying all police officers are bad.  Perhaps if the same police officers that responded to Tamayo and Sierad had responded to Tamir Rice and John Crawford, the latter would still be alive.

 

I can understand how black people see it; and PC's numbers are sobering indeed.

 

Nonetheless, I think the cries of "racism! Racism!" on many specific incidents, just aren't well-founded.  For example, with John Crawford--I didn't see precisely what his motions were in that confrontation with the cops; but the injustice of the situation seems to arise from the fact that the cops took at face value the statements of a 911 caller who, as it turned out, was lying.  And with Tamir Rice - you find it outrageous that he wasn't given medical attention until backup arrived.  But the article says that Rice was getting attention within three minutes and forty-nine seconds after being hit.  It's great that the nearby FBI agent was able to render first aid; but I'm not sure--on top of everything else we demand of law enforcment officers--that it's fair to demand they that all cops be trained paramedics as well.

 

By lionizing Brown and Martin (who, while they didn't deserve their fates, were clearly bad eggs), and even kids like Tamir Rice who at minimum acted stupidly; blacks and their "allies" create an impression that they're scraping the bottom of the barrel to find incidents that support their case; and that creates suspicion that maybe there's some other ulterior motive at play.

[paulsifer42]

To the OP, the answer to your question is always yes, and the answer to that question for every group is always yes. :)

"The fool chatters while the wise man listens."

 

-Chun (Remo Williams)

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I can understand how black people see it; and PC's numbers are sobering indeed.

 

Thanks for really listening.  I'm okay with us not agreeing completely.  I just appreciate that you took a moment to see their/my point of view.  

[Vort]

Thanks for really listening.  I'm okay with us not agreeing completely.  I just appreciate that you took a moment to see their/my point of view.  

 

LP, I doubt there is a single reader on this list that fails to understand your point. In fact, I doubt there are any, or at most a tiny handful, that even disagree with that point. We all agree that racism is bad, as much as or moreso in police actions as in the general population.

 

But it is frustrating that you refuse to concede the staggeringly obvious truths that everyone else here is pointing out. You seem utterly to refuse to recognize the elephant in the room pooping all over the couch (and coffee table, and recliner, and ottoman, and half the carpeting).

 

When you and those you agree with refuse to acknowledge the most blatantly obvious of truths, why might you expect that anyone will then concede the truthfulness of your own arguments?

[The Folk Prophet]

But it is frustrating that you refuse to concede the staggeringly obvious truths that everyone else here is pointing out. You seem utterly to refuse to recognize the elephant in the room pooping all over the couch (and coffee table, and recliner, and ottoman, and half the carpeting).

 

The other week my niece, out of nowhere asked, "How do you get out of an elephant?"

 

"How...?" We asked...a bit confused.

 

"You run around until you're all pooped out."

[bytor2112]

Over the weekend here in St Louis a Serbian man was killed. He was beat to death by 3 teenagers aged 15-17. This took place about 2 in the morning. They have been arrested those responsible. The man was walking to his car and they approached him and got into an argument. The three kids used hammers. This was in South St Louis City.

 

He obviously exuded white privilege....and stories like this reaffirm why I leave home with a Ruger LCR .357 magnum tucked neatly in my waist band. A very bad day for those folks had they brought hammers and approached me...

[Palerider]

He obviously exuded white privilege....and stories like this reaffirm why I leave home with a Ruger LCR .357 magnum tucked neatly in my waist band. A very bad day for those folks had they brought hammers and approached me...

I also did not point out that all three teenagers were young African American kids.

[Guest]

Thanks for really listening.  I'm okay with us not agreeing completely.  I just appreciate that you took a moment to see their/my point of view.  

 

I see your point of view.  I agree to it.  But this is you:  "The tree is dead!  It is dead!  You can see there are no leaves, the trunk is brittle, it is dead!"... And this is me:  "Could it be that it is dead because you poured muriatic acid on its root?"... And this is you:  "But, you are not listening to me!  The tree is dead!".

 

 

I also did not point out that all three teenagers were young African American kids.

 

And here is me again... Where are these kids' parents?  I don't care if there's an Asian uprising... my kids will not take a hammer to the non-Asian guy walking down the street's head!  I'll push them back into my stomach and reabsorb their idiot butts!  (Yes, I say this to my kids when they do something stupid.)

Edited December 3, 2014 by anatess

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

 

LP, I doubt there is a single reader on this list that fails to understand your point. In fact, I doubt there are any, or at most a tiny handful, that even disagree with that point. We all agree that racism is bad, as much as or moreso in police actions as in the general population.

 

But it is frustrating that you refuse to concede the staggeringly obvious truths that everyone else here is pointing out. You seem utterly to refuse to recognize the elephant in the room pooping all over the couch (and coffee table, and recliner, and ottoman, and half the carpeting).

 

When you and those you agree with refuse to acknowledge the most blatantly obvious of truths, why might you expect that anyone will then concede the truthfulness of your own arguments?

 

 

Just because I chose not to respond to everything I read here that disagrees with me doesn't mean I'm ignoring the elephant in the room.  I know all about elephants, Vort.  I lived with one most of my life.  I hate those kind of elephants and that is part of the reason I spoke up here.

 

I tried to be conciliatory, and you call that blindness.  What you fail to understand is that I understand your point of view, I either once shared it, or I've considered it when it came up.  I am a pro at "self-doubt", I question myself and my opinions constantly.  

What you call "staggeringly obvious truths" I call opinion, and the truths I share you guys call opinion....this happens in every debate.  Truth can be a slippery fish apparently.  

 

For example, JAG said that Tamir did get first aid about 3.5 minutes after he was shot.  I didn't want to argue about that...but least you think I am ignoring the elephant....I say 3.5 minutes is way too long.  No I don't expect police to be paramedics, but they are trained in basic first aid.  It should not take 3.5 minutes to walk over to Tamir and put pressure on his wounds.  It's not hard any 12 yr old Boy Scout knows how to do that.  Why the police officers didn't we can only speculate.   

 

And there is also the time factor....when you are in the minority opinion, it can take a long time to respond to all the opposing opinions.  My goal here was not to change anyone's mind, but to get people to listen as the OP suggested.  I feel like that happened, and I'm grateful for that.  As I said, I have listened to the opposing views, I don't take a stand that disagrees with most of the people I know lightly.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I see your point of view.  I agree to it.  But this is you:  "The tree is dead!  It is dead!  You can see there are no leaves, the trunk is brittle, it is dead!"... And this is me:  "Could it be that it is dead because you poured muriatic acid on its root?"... And this is you:  "But, you are not listening to me!  The tree is dead!".

 

I think if you reverse that it would come closer to the truth.  I've used many different approaches to try and explain my point of view.  That is not the same as repeating oneself.  If you mean that I am not changing my mind in the light of "staggeringly obvious truths" as Vort puts it, I feel the same about you.