What's brought you to cry

[JimmiGerman]

It's been a while ago, when I watched a tv report about Contergan, which was a popular medicine here in Germany against undesirable pregnancy hurts / troubles at the end of the 1950s and beginning 1960s. Many children of the generation of those women who took this medicine were born in a deformed way and were sentenced for their life to live with crippled hands, arms or legs, or, as a mercy in my opinion - in comparison to the other deformations -, were born mentally deficient and not aware of what had happend / occured to them, and thus not suffering in a concious way.

 

I was absolutely concerned and down when I saw a young girl on that report (don't know if it was only arranged for that report, but the girl was certainly authentic) standing in front of a mirror, only on one leg (she only had one leg), without arms (she had no arms), wearing a wedding dress just to watch herself in that mirror with that clothing on... and I was in a conflict stance with the Allmighty (he certainly knows me and sometimes we are not in total harmony) while my tears were running...

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide

 

 

As I'm of the same age group, and my younger sister, too, I should be glad and grateful that my mother didn't take that medicine at the time she was pregnant.

Edited December 19, 2014 by JimmiGerman

[Guest]

I've heard of those and yes... it is quite a tragedy.

 

But I'm not sure I understand the source of your conflict with the Almighty in this case.  Can you elaborate?

[JimmiGerman]

I've heard of those and yes... it is quite a tragedy.

 

But I'm not sure I understand the source of your conflict with the Almighty in this case.  Can you elaborate?

 

Yes. It's because He let it happen (especially) to those children who were born in that deformed way and who had to suffer for their life time. My next logical question was: is he really allmightyful by letting those things happen? And is He mercyful to those spirits getting sent to Earth in a way like that and being damned in that way from the moment they were born?

 

So now you might understand the source of my conflict.

Edited December 19, 2014 by JimmiGerman

[pam]

Yes. It's because He let it happen (especially) to those children / persons who were born in that deformed way and who had to suffer for their life time. My next logical question was: is he really allmightyful when those things happen? And is He mercyful to those spirits getting sent to Earth in a way like that and being damned in that way from the moment they were born?

 

So you might understand the source of my conflict.

 

God allows so that we are able to use our agency. If not, we would be following Satan's plan that we would have no agency.

[JimmiGerman]

God allows so that we are able to use our agency. If not, we would be following Satan's plan that we would have no agency.Our agency -

 

"Our agency" is, in this context, the agency of the parents / the mother. She could decide wether to take the medicine or not. She had the decision. But the spirits who were sent into this desolate body? They had not any freedom of decision. Or would you say "yes, send me to Earth in a body that's crippled and then let me repent or return"?

 

This is a conflict. And this might be one of the greatest conflicts. I'd like to see what Vort will say...

[unixknight]

Just a few minutes ago I saw this video on YouTube.  It addresses this question better than I could.

[pam]

"Our agency" is, in this context, the agency of the parents / the mother. She could decide wether to take the medicine or not. She had the decision. But the spirits who were sent into this desolate body? They had not any freedom of decision. Or would you say "yes, send me to Earth in a body that's crippled and then let me repent or return"?

 

This is a conflict. And this might be one of the greatest conflicts. I'd like to see what Vort will say...

 

Yeh unfortunately what happens to many is based on the agency of others.

[notquiteperfect]

Yes. It's because He let it happen (especially) to those children who were born in that deformed way and who had to suffer for their life time. My next logical question was: is he really allmightyful by letting those things happen? And is He mercyful to those spirits getting sent to Earth in a way like that and being damned in that way from the moment they were born?

 

Please consider the idea that before each of us was born, we saw what our life experience would be and chose it anyway. Maybe some come to Earth with these deformities as a vehicle to learn what they need to in this life (accept help from others, humility, etc.) OR to help others learn what they need to (compassion, service, etc.).  Furthermore, this life is only a small bit of time in the whole plan and we can be glad for the Resurrection that will occur and for Jesus Christ who made it possible.

To illustrate my point - I'm hard of hearing and have had countless awkward moments because of it (among other things) but when I was first experiencing this, it took me to my knees and I grew closer to my Heavenly Father and I started to really appreciate the Atonement because I knew the Lord understood what I was going through when no one else did.  The knowledge of the Resurrection is very personal to me and something I take great comfort in.  I also have been blessed to witness the patience of my husband who never minds repeating things, speaking up or changing seats so I can hear.  I've learned to find the silver lining as well but I'll leave it at that and hope you get what I'm saying.  

There are unfortunate things that happen in life but it can serve a greater purpose if we let it.

[Leah]

Yes. It's because He let it happen (especially) to those children who were born in that deformed way and who had to suffer for their life time. My next logical question was: is he really allmightyful by letting those things happen? And is He mercyful to those spirits getting sent to Earth in a way like that and being damned in that way from the moment they were born?

 

So now you might understand the source of my conflict.

In what way are people "damned" because they have a physical disability?

[Vort]

The fact is that people suffer for the sins of their parents. That's not a divine decree, it's the nature of reality. People also prosper from the righteousness and hard work of their parents, and that's also simply the nature of reality.

 

It seems so awful to be a thalidomide baby. But in fact, each of us has imperfections, some physical, some mental, some emotional, some spiritual. These imperfections can cause us grief and pain. But that is in large part why we are given this mortal life. I do not know exactly (or, truth be told, even a clear approximation of) what life is like in the eternities, but it clearly requires us to have the strength, fortitude, and character to overcome all sorts of handicaps and "unfairnesses". In that sense, this life is a school to teach us the basic ABC skills we need to navigate and succeed in the eternities.

 

I understand your seeming dilemma (assuming you are sincere and not pulling our leg this time -- your post sounds very sincere, so I take it as such). I guess I would advise that the solution to the dilemma lies not in resolving the apparent conundrum, but in rethinking your viewpoint and biases. When viewed from other positions, the seeming conundrum might vanish.

[JimmiGerman]

In what way are people "damned" because they have a physical disability?ecause

 

I don't mean it in a religious context. I've just used the word more or less by chance and without a deeper meaning, just as a result of my emotions in spite of those physical disabilities.

[Guest]

Yes. It's because He let it happen (especially) to those children who were born in that deformed way and who had to suffer for their life time. My next logical question was: is he really allmightyful by letting those things happen? And is He mercyful to those spirits getting sent to Earth in a way like that and being damned in that way from the moment they were born?

 

So now you might understand the source of my conflict.

 

Jimmi, these kinds of things cannot be comprehended by only looking at the mortal probation.  You have to look at it in an Eternal Progression sense to understand it.

 

Because... when you look at these things in a truly Eternal sense (including pre-mortal and post-mortal lives), you will see that NOT A SINGLE ONE of these souls are damned.  You can ONLY be damned by the wrong choices you make - and only if you had knowledge and still made the wrong choice.  You cannot be damned by the wrong choices of another - in any way possible.

 

So, what are you exactly saying is damnable about being born with physical disabilities?  Are you saying that if you're not born perfect, then you must be damned?  Why?  What is it about their physical disability that prevents them from ever achieving Celestial Glory?

 

When you look at the Eternal Purpose of our Spirits in the prism of the fullness of joy promised by the Plan of Salvation, you will see what God sees as joyful and what God sees as damned.  And you will see - that mortal anguish does not in any way show that God is cruel - and every single one of those children can achieve the fullness of joy if they look at mortality in its proper place in Eternal Life.

[JimmiGerman]

The fact is that people suffer for the sins of their parents. That's not a divine decree, it's the nature of reality. People also prosper from the righteousness and hard work of their parents, and that's also simply the nature of reality.

 

It seems so awful to be a thalidomide baby. But in fact, each of us has imperfections, some physical, some mental, some emotional, some spiritual. These imperfections can cause us grief and pain. But that is in large part why we are given this mortal life. I do not know exactly (or, truth be told, even a clear approximation of) what life is like in the eternities, but it clearly requires us to have the strength, fortitude, and character to overcome all sorts of handicaps and "unfairnesses". In that sense, this life is a school to teach us the basic ABC skills we need to navigate and succeed in the eternities.

 

I understand your seeming dilemma (assuming you are sincere and not pulling our leg this time -- your post sounds very sincere, so I take it as such). I guess I would advise that the solution to the dilemma lies not in resolving the apparent conundrum, but in rethinking your viewpoint and biases. When viewed from other positions, the seeming conundrum might vanish.

 

 

I'm not pulling your legs; it's not my intention or has it ever been. It's only my emotions that sometimes come stronger reflected by my posts than they should or it's intended by me. Even if I was recently speaking about the fears I would have when getting baptized, I'm sure there was a reason for that, maybe from the depths of my subconcious. There is always a reason, and therefore, maybe,  I've already given the answer myself.

 

Yes, maybe the solution to the dilemma doesn't depend on an answer to the conflict seemingly given. Pam says that (unfortunately) what happens to many is based on the agency of others. That's true, undoubtly. But what remains is the suffering of the innocent. You call it a conundrum, and maybe you are right that it might vanish by rethinking my viewpoint and biases. Let's see.

[JimmiGerman]

Jimmi, these kinds of things cannot be comprehended by only looking at the mortal probation.  You have to look at it in an Eternal Progression sense to understand it.

 

Because... when you look at these things in a truly Eternal sense (including pre-mortal and post-mortal lives), you will see that NOT A SINGLE ONE of these souls are damned.  You can ONLY be damned by the wrong choices you make - and only if you had knowledge and still made the wrong choice.  You cannot be damned by the wrong choices of another - in any way possible.

 

So, what are you exactly saying is damnable about being born with physical disabilities?  Are you saying that if you're not born perfect, then you must be damned?  Why?  What is it about their physical disability that prevents them from ever achieving Celestial Glory?

 

When you look at the Eternal Purpose of our Spirits in the prism of the fullness of joy promised by the Plan of Salvation, you will see what God sees as joyful and what God sees as damned.  And you will see - that mortal anguish does not in any way show that God is cruel - and every single one of those children can achieve the fullness of joy if they look at mortality in its proper place in Eternal Life.

 

I will have to think about it, but, as I said before, there remains the suffering (of the innocent) in their life or mortal existence. Can the girl in the wedding dress, of which I spoke, ever make her dreams come true? Will she ever be married? What remains are her wishes and the cruel reality of her disabled body. Even if I look at these things in a truly eternal sense, I would say, honestly, that this life - in spite of all its common deficits - seems to me not quite insignificant, even if I saw it in a greater context.

[JimmiGerman]

Just a few minutes ago I saw this video on YouTube.  It addresses this question better than I could.

 

Interesting video. I'm going to watch it later again, because the loudspeakers of my notebook don't work.

 

[Leah]

I don't mean it in a religious context. I've just used the word more or less by chance and without a deeper meaning, just as a result of my emotions in spite of those physical disabilities.

You still haven't answered the question.

In what way are they "damned"?

[Guest]

I will have to think about it, but, as I said before, there remains the suffering (of the innocent) in their life or mortal existence. Can the girl in the wedding dress, of which I spoke, ever make her dreams come true? Will she ever be married? What remains are her wishes and the cruel reality of her disabled body. Even if I look at these things in a truly eternal sense, I would say, honestly, that this life - in spite of all its common deficits - seems to me not quite insignificant, even if I saw it in a greater context.

 

Why couldn't she get married?  Do you know that not only is Nick Vujucic married, he has a kid?  It's not about what you don't have, Jimmi... it is what you DO have!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKTg_INHgpc

[JimmiGerman]

You still haven't answered the question.

In what way are they "damned"?

 

As I said, I don't mean it in a religious context; just a word to describe a fatal situation. For me it's obviously that they are damned in some way, in the meaning of condemned, to live with those physical disabilities. You can play it down, and you can see it from a bright side, but I was sorry for that young girl I've described at the beginning, and I'm afraid nothing will change my mind. Maybe I mean "damned" more in a philosophical way, in the sense of Kantian ethics and its categorical imperative.

 

But to make it less complicated: I mean, what one doesn't wish himself and it happens to another, shouldn't it cause compassion? And the word "damned" I chose maybe sprang more from a status of compassion than anything else.  Nevertheless, compassion is a very human quality, and if I think of the girl I've described at the beginning, I do have compassion. Who likes to see in it something good, that should see it in such a way, but it's not my way of looking at those things.

 

Not that I would ignore a greater context, or, as Vort says, that it is in large part why we are given this mortal life, but it's simply the cruel fact of a person with feelings and wishes imprisoned in her disabled body.

[CaleB]

A death in the family, severely tragic events on the news and animal cruelty.

[skalenfehl]

An account of a vision of our Savior's suffering in Gethsemane.

[Vort]

This.

[JimmiGerman]

This.

 

"This"? You're posing a conundrum.    Is it skalenfehl's post of an account of a vision of the Savior's suffering in Gethsemane...?

[Vort]

"This"? You're posing a conundrum.    Is it skalenfehl's post of an account of a vision of the Savior's suffering in Gethsemane...?

Sorry for the confusion. I was responding literally to the thread title with a link. No intention to dismiss your thoughtful question or analysis.

[JimmiGerman]

Sorry for the confusion. I was responding literally to the thread title with a link. No intention to dismiss your thoughtful question or analysis.

 

I see. I didn't recognize it as a link, but now I've seen It's a video.  Well, I don't think my analysis results in the most brilliant insights, and I wouldn't even call it an analysis. In principal it bases only upon the old question known as the theodicy - but I just wanted to point out that there is a concrete suffering in spite of all those religious conceptions, and beside all our firm faith in a great divine plan my thoughts were that we should not forget that compassion is one of the most essential human characteristics, which should never be sacrified on the altar of a religious understanding or experience.

Edited December 20, 2014 by JimmiGerman

[paulsifer42]

Honestly, I cry every time I read "I'll Love you Forever" (throughout.  Seriously, pretty much the whole way through), "The Gift of the Magi" (when she hopes he'll think she's still pretty, and "Horton Hears a Who" (when they say they'll protect them with Horton).