Cops are people too


prisonchaplain
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When trust breaks down people die.  Community stops cooperating--stops talking to police.  Legitimate law enforcement precautions, and preventative measures like "broken windows" policing become perceived as racist harrassment.  In turn, police become extra vigilent, and sudden movements become threats, and escalations become more frequent.  This is all bad.  The problem is that "trust" is a soft, squishy concept--hard to establish, harder to maintain, extremely difficult to restore.  Enter the various activists and commentators, who gin up all sides for show points, and I am afraid more lives will end before a balance is found.  SIGH

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These are not isolated incidents nor are they corner cases.  This is a problem, and the more apologists make excuses, the more we're going to see it.  Cops have authority and equipment to do their job, and they need to be held to a high standard to be worthy of that authority.  I don't know if the solution is better training, better screening of candidates, better non-lethal equipment or what.  But something has to be done or this is going to get worse, not better.

 

Do you disagree?

 

While we're making broad generalizations about groups of people, let me add to the flames with tongue only partially in cheek:

 

There is an entire subculture out there that gets its kicks out of dead or maimed cops.  They fantasize about it; they talk about it in person and online; they write and sing songs about it; and--given the chance--they do it.  This is a problem, and the more apologists make excuses, the more we're going to see it.

 

Now, I agree police need to exercise great restraint.  I agree that no-knock drug raids need to end.  But when some goon--regardless of race--is charging at a cop; I'm not going to be among the Monday-morning quarterbacks insisting that pepper spray and stun guns are just as tactically effective as firearms and that a cop has a moral obligation to deploy a less reliable weapon at the risk of his own safety.  Plenty of people are murdered every day without the use of firearms or knives; and I'm suspicious of any notion that a response to someone who attacks a cop needs to be limited by some ivory-tower construct of "proportionate force".

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I believe there are problems and arguments with all sides in this discussion.  I am inclined to think along with the wisdom in scripture – that is – that there is a time and season for all things.  There is a time to restrain police and there are times for police to be very aggressive and under little restraint.   I believe that as there is a time for different protocol likewise there are places for different protocol.  I realize that some may criticize me for “profiling”.    But that is the essence of law enforcement – that is; an assessment of a situation and a determination of an appropriate response.  I am concerned and suspicious of the efforts to completely compartmentalize and define protocols.

 

In cases of warrants – keep in mind that much of the assessment of a situation is not done by police but by other elements of our legal system.  This would mean that if there are abuses – it is not just the police but must include conspiracies throughout the legal system.  And before we go off about conspiracies on a national scale there needs to be proof that is void of speculation or circumstantial impressions.  Blaming police for being sent on a botched warrant issued by our legal system – even and especially if children are injured is in my mind a sure sign that emotions are running away with reason which adds to the problem rather than to a solution.

 

I believe I can speak with some authority having twice been a suspect in a raid (wrong place at the right time).  One by the FBI and the other by local police.  BTW the police raid was a case of complete misinterpretation of evidence.  When I was picked up by the FBI, I was serving as a missionary and it was my companion’s first night of serving his mission.  We were the prime suspects in a murder, bank robbery and hostage situation for 3 days.  In both cases weapons were drawn and I was personally ruffed up a little.  I have also been involved in more than one debriefing for security breaches while consulting for the defense department.  I am pleased to announce to all concerned that I was cleared by evidence obtained after my being arrested. 

 

It is my belief that of all possibilities of abuses and prejudices occurring in our government it is my opinion and experience that the police are the least of all our government conspiracy problems.  I honestly believe that there is a far more dangerous conspiracy taking place to specifically cause mistrust in the police and weaken their resolve and ability to protect innocent citizens.

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Some one called 911 because someone was waving a rifle around. The cops say they told him to put it down and he didn't. The second the guy put his hand into his waistband and began charging.

Sorry but when those are the cases you have to bring up, it tells me you are scrapping the bottom of the barrel and there isn't a problem.

 

I'm sorry but those statements are not correct.  First, he wasn't waving the rifle around.  This is shown on the security camera.  Second, he was fired on before he had  the chance to drop it.  He never refused.  Think about it.  Why would he?  I mean seriously.  Are you honestly telling us that a man was holding an unloaded BB gun and refused to put it down when ordered to do so by police with guns drawn?   Not only is that illogical, but it is not what was shown on the security tape.

 

Don't take my word for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XYNOTUWfHE

 

No need to scrape the bottom of the barrel.  A 2 minute Google search will give you all the examples you want of similar incidents.  

 

And yes, there's a problem, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.  You can chalk that up to cop hating paranoid people if you want to, but that's really not helping.  I don't hate cops, and I don't regard myself as paranoid, but the problems are obvious, and the longer we keep making excuses and turning a blind eye to it, the worse it will get.  This needs to be addressed and discussed openly, not swept under the rug.

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Right, 'cuz that footage had audio, so you could tell whether the off screen officer was giving commands or not. 911 caller stated waving, officer enters thinking guy has been waving and pointing a rifle at people.

Let me restate

Officer entered a Walmart where (at least the officer believes) a man has been waving and pointing a rifle at people. The video cannot tell you if audible commands were or were not given. If you want to blame some one, blame the 911 caller for giving inaccurate information.

Bottom of the barrel this is.

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Right, 'cuz that footage had audio, so you could tell whether the off screen officer was giving commands or not. 911 caller stated waving, officer enters thinking guy has been waving and pointing a rifle at people.

Let me restate

Officer entered a Walmart where (at least the officer believes) a man has been waving and pointing a rifle at people. The video cannot tell you if audible commands were or were not given. If you want to blame some one, blame the 911 caller for giving inaccurate information.

Bottom of the barrel this is.

 

You're right.  The police have no responsibility whatsoever to assess the situation for themselves.  Much better to take the word of whoever placed that 9-1-1 call and go in guns blazing, just to be safe.

 

And if you feel the lack of audio somehow proves that he ignored commands, that's cool too.  I mean, we can see from the video that the guy goes down in almost the same second the officers arrive, so how you can be so certain he ignored an order to drop the bb gun I don't know.

 

Interestingly, here's a video of the guy who originally called 911 and made all of those claims changed his nonsense story after seeing the video.  If you listen to his story and watch the video, you can see he's completely full of it.  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6eEwBHzKk

 

Still not the bottom of the barrel, but if you feel that repeating it will make it so, go right ahead ;)

Edited by unixknight
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So I've been pondering on this the past few days and I've come to the conclusion that we as a society, if not individuals, love victims. A street thug is worthy of contempt until he is dead. Only then is the good he did mentioned. A cop is praised for dying in the line of duty but is nothing but an annoyance alive. We need to fix crime culture before someone is dead and cops should not be expected to sacrifice their lives in order to be decent.

It seems too many find it easier to hero - worship the dead than prevent disaster.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Backroads, and JAG, I agree that is a good insight.  We do tend to love underdogs.  So I agree--with a small caveat.  Of course there is a caveat, LOL!  

 

Not all the young black men being killed are 'thugs'.  I realize some of these stories are debatable, however, some are not.  Like Akai Gurley and John Crawford III (we can debate the events leading to his death, but he was not a thug).

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I doubt there is a person on this list who does not get sick to the stomach thinking about a young man innocent of any crime being killed by police. In that sense, then, we all agree.

 

The objection is to the stereotyped, cartoonish caricaturization of the Oppressed Black Man being beaten up by the Jackbooted Police. This depiction is not merely false, it is harmful.

 

Unless I'm wrong and the depiction is actually true. But in that case, illustrating the supposed injustices by holding up thugs who were killed while threatening police is hardly convincing.

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My point is this "Praise the dead" mentality does nothing to end the cultures of crime or police brutality. Too many claim to be fine with these cultures until someone dies. Suddenly that victim is a saint and the cultures that led to the death are both cherished and shamed--depending on which side produced the victim.

We can't expect crime culture to exist without consequences and police to die dealing with it.

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Of course, Vort, that is the crux of the whole conversation.  We agree on that.  The thing is many black people don't see this as a stereotyped, cartoonish caricaturization...but rather as the reality that they live with and seek to change.  Many white people see it as you do.  

 

I confess I had to look up the definition of Jackbooted.  :)

 

I do think that black men are stereotyped and oppressed.  But I don't think that (for the most part) this is done intentionally.  I think a lot of it has to do with implicit bias.  I think that bias makes a police officer more likely to feel his life is in danger when in an interaction with a black man than a white man. Here is an example:

 

White cop mistakes black cop for criminal and kills him

 

 I also think there are jackbooted cops too, that misuse their power, but I don't think they are the norm.  

 

The question about holding up thugs is a complicated one.  I don't think Eric Garner, Akai Gurley, John Crawford, or Tamir Rice were thugs.  There are others, but I don't know their names off the top of my head.

Backroads--you said: Too many claim to be fine with these cultures until someone dies.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by that.  I'm not okay with these cultures even when someone doesn't die.  The old policy of "stop and frisk" that was used in New York is a blatant violation of 4th Amendment rights.  And once it was an outright excuse for abuse. 

 

Cop squeezed testicles during stop and frisk

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But in that case, illustrating the supposed injustices by holding up thugs who were killed while threatening police is hardly convincing.

Police over responding is bad. But that does not excuse a crime being committed. And yes, the inverse is true.

Instead of fixing their own shortcomings each side is just whining about the other's issues.

Police: use your best judgment when dealing with people.

Criminals: stop committing crimes and stop accepting crime in your cultures.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

I don't think anyone is trying to excuse crime.  But we have a court system to determine punishment, and capitol punishment is supposed to be reserved for murderers.  Absolutely people should not point guns at police officers.  I'm not defending that.  

 

I don't know why you feel that some communities teach crime as acceptable...where do you get that from?  Sure gangs function that way, but I don't think we can extrapolate that to communities.

 

I just finished reading The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander (highly recommend it, BTW).  She talked about families feeling so ashamed and disappointed when a son goes to prison that it is not discussed at all.  The classic elephant in the room.  

 

If we are going to talk about "community issues"....just yesterday a therapist friend (working in social work you meet a lot of therapists)...told me in dealing with sexual assault the two groups they see most commonly are Vietnamese and Mormons.  I was shocked.  I'm sure we don't encourage that behavior!  But because of the shame, we don't talk about it either.  My point is we can't assume that just because there is a lot of crime in black communities that they are teaching it as acceptable.  I think it has a lot more to do with poverty, than something that is taught.

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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The thing is, gangs are a big part of communities and in many cases a family thing.

It is sad shame prevents discussion and that needs to change. Because a kid who robs and shoots people is not a good kid and it does no good to shrug off that behavior. I suppose I get the impression of this behavior being taught is because we see generational cycles of this behavior with no visible prevention within the family and community. I was actually thinking of poverty, not race.

Edited by Backroads
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I thought gangs as a family issue was an Italian thing...mafia and all.  Drats, that sounds racisist...something I need to work on. In black communities, I imagine brothers and cousins recruiting one another into gangs, but I don't think that constitutes families encouraging it.  I think fathers, mothers, grandmothers...etc (yes mostly the women...now I am sexist, LOL!)  being adamantly against gangs.

 

I'm not saying that a kid who robs and shoots people is a good kid.  Is that how I am coming across to you?

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No, that's just what I see in the media.

As for gangs, in both schools I've taught at we had a surprisingly high number of parents in gangs. In these areas, it is a generational thing. You get old enough, you join Dad's gang.

Edited by Backroads
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Oh!  I'm glad that's clarified (about the media).

 

About the gangs...okay, I can't argue with that.  Such a shame.  What a "legacy" to pass on . . .  Tragic, really.

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 I also think there are jackbooted cops too, that misuse their power, but I don't think they are the norm.  

 

I hope you're right about this, and I'm inclined to agree, but the problem is that even small misuses of power pave the way to larger ones.  We've all seen police cars blowing way past the speed limit when there's no emergency.  It's a fact that when an off duty cop gets pulled over they never get ticketed because of "professional courtesy."  For an example, see my earlier post about my police chief friend who got out of dozens of speeding tickets just by showing his badge.  

 

In the rare case where an officer does take appropriate action against one who's breaking the law, there's harassment and retribution:  http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/florida-trooper-arrested-a-cop

 

There are no consequences for this behavior, so naturally human nature takes over and it increases.  I keep reading articles about cops taking cameras away from people who are (legally) recording their activities in public.  The person with the camera is exonerated and given their stuff back (sometimes weeks later) but the officers face no disciplinary action for their behavior.

 

A recent example:  http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2014/12/florida-man-arrested-recording-cops-wins-settlement/

 

This sort of thing leads to the "us v. them" mentality and that brings my comments full circle.

Edited by unixknight
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Guest LiterateParakeet

I agree Unixknight.  I keep thinking of the Stanford Prison Experiment (you can find videos about it on youtube).  Basically (for anyone who is not familiar) a university Professor conducted an experiment where he created a mock prison in the basement of a university building.  He randomly divided the student volunteers into guards and inmates.  

 

The results were astounding.  The inmates quickly fell into their roles, and even more surprising was the brutality shown by the student guards.  Even the professor was swept up.  He couldn't see how bad the situation had become until his girlfriend tried to point it out to him and said (paraphrasing), "This isn't the you I know, and if this is the real you--I don't anything to do with you."  That brought him back to reality, and the experiment was called off early.

 

Prisons have rules and laws to prevent cruel and unusual punishment of inmates, but during my time as a Correctional Officer (prison guard), I saw first hand what power does to people.  Some of the nicest people turned in to monsters when they put on that uniform.  I can't realistically tell myself that doesn't happen to police officers too.

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