Spying on Kids


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(Book of Mormon | Alma 5:59)

59  For what shepherd (parent) is there among you having many sheep (children) doth not watch over them, that the wolves enter not and devour his flock (family)?  And behold, if a wolf enter his flock doth he not drive him out?  Yea, and at the last, if he can, he will destroy him.

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I agree with you here.  Spying is when the party you're spying on does not know that you are watching.  THAT, is a breach of trust and I don't think it is necessary. 

 

The reference to "putting on a mustache and crashing the dance" - I strongly disagree with.  Because... the problem exists BEFORE the dance and crashing the dance does not make anything better.  The problem is that you felt the need to crash the dance in the first place... and THAT is what needs to be addressed - not whatever it is the kid will be caught doing in the dance.  Do you see what I'm saying?

 

I don't spy on my kids.  They know I'm paying attention to whatever it is they're doing.  The moment they feel the need to hide or be secretive about what they are doing - the problem flag is raised... so the need to spy is not necessary.

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And I'm going to extend this to my husband.  I know of women who sneak behind their husband's backs to see their texts/emails/etc... constantly worried and anxious and stressed because their husbands might be cheating on them...

 

If you're suspecting your husband of cheating on you, the problem is already present.  Sneaking and worrying and expending all that extra negative energy to spy on the husband just makes you crazy and unnecessary.  I don't need to do any of that.  This is a marriage - not a lawsuit - where evidence is needed to validate your suspicions.  The problem that you are suspecting your husband of ill-doings is the problem to address that needs to be solved.  And with that, you should be able to ask your husband to show you all his texts/emails/etc. without having to spy on him... if he doesn't cooperate, then the problem will not be resolved.

 

Make sense?

Edited by anatess
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And I'm going to extend this to my husband.  I know of women who sneak behind their husband's backs to see their texts/emails/etc... constantly worried and anxious and stressed because their husbands might be cheating on them...

 

If you're suspecting your husband of cheating on you, the problem is already present.  Sneaking and worrying and expending all that extra negative energy to spy on the husband just makes you crazy and unnecessary.  I don't need to do any of that.  This is a marriage - not a lawsuit - where evidence is needed to validate your suspicions.  The problem that you are suspecting your husband of ill-doings is the problem to address that needs to be solved.  And with that, you should be able to ask your husband to show you all his texts/emails/etc. without having to spy on him... if he doesn't cooperate, then the problem will not be resolved.

 

Make sense?

I would say yes it does.
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Have some friends with a 18 yr old son. Good family and good people. The son is still in high school and told his parents that he was 18 now and can do what he wants. Whoa....time for tough love

 

The appropriate response is, "Yes, you can do whatever you want. But not in my house. The condition for living here is that you follow my rules. I hope you choose to stay, because we love you and want your company. But if you need to go off and live somewhere else because you want to do things we won't allow, I understand."

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The appropriate response is, "Yes, you can do whatever you want. But not in my house. The condition for living here is that you follow my rules. I hope you choose to stay, because we love you and want your company. But if you need to go off and live somewhere else because you want to do things we won't allow, I understand."

I agree.....I have seen several Mormon families at a loss when their kids rebell like that. My Dad was not a active member but I can tell you his response to that....This is my house and you will do as I say or you can get the blankety blank out. Seen him say this to one of my older brothers. As I said sometimes tough love.

Another time right after I was first called as a Bishop a family was having a hard time with a son. I felt they should take away his driving privelage....the school councilor told them not to do that. We always told our kids driving was a privelage and there was no law that said I had to let you drive any car.

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I agree.....I have seen several Mormon families at a loss when their kids rebell like that. My Dad was not a active member but I can tell you his response to that....This is my house and you will do as I say or you can get the blankety blank out. Seen him say this to one of my older brothers. As I said sometimes tough love.

Another time right after I was first called as a Bishop a family was having a hard time with a son. I felt they should take away his driving privelage....the school councilor told them not to do that. We always told our kids driving was a privelage and there was no law that said I had to let you drive any car.

 

Everything is a privilege when your 18 and living at home with your parents. Phone, computer, shelter, food.  You're 18. Get a job! :)

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Have some friends with a 18 yr old son. Good family and good people. The son is still in high school and told his parents that he was 18 now and can do what he wants. Whoa....time for tough love

 

This is why I don't understand the "age" requirement on parenting.

 

For example... my mother-in-law has a list of rules for her granddaughter (mom died so she's being raised by grandmother) on the wall... One of the rules was - no dating until 16 years old.  She said it's a Church rule.

 

My son asked me - is that our house rule too?  I told him nope.  Our rule is - you date when I think you're mature enough to handle it.  If that means you can't date until you're 25, so be it.

 

I mean, what's the difference between 15 years and 363 days old to 16 years old?  Not much.  This is the same with driving - just because you turn 15 doesn't mean I'm going to let you drive the car...

 

Same thing with 18 years old... so, my kid can't pull the - "I'm 18 now I can do what I want now"... because he knows I'd just say, "not in this family".

Edited by anatess
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This is why I don't understand the "age" requirement on parenting.

 

For example... my mother-in-law has a list of rules for her granddaughter (mom died so she's being raised by grandmother) on the wall... One of the rules was - no dating until 16 years old.  She said it's a Church rule.

 

My son asked me - is that our house rule too?  I told him nope.  Our rule is - you date when I think you're mature enough to handle it.  If that means you can't date until you're 25, so be it.

 

I mean, what's the difference between 15 years and 363 days old to 16 years old?  Not much.  This is the same with driving - just because you turn 15 doesn't mean I'm going to let you drive the car...

 

Same thing with 18 years old... so, my kid can't pull the - "I'm 18 now I can do what I want now"... because he knows I'd just say, "not in this family".

I agree....amen
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I think the account of the parent reading her child's journal is truly a betrayal and can be very damaging. I would never secretly or openly demand the right to read my child's personal journal. Saying that, I have no problem with informing children that parents will be monitoring certain activities to certain extents, such as, having access to all passwords for electronic devices. 

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And I'm going to extend this to my husband.  I know of women who sneak behind their husband's backs to see their texts/emails/etc... constantly worried and anxious and stressed because their husbands might be cheating on them...

 

The bigger problem is that it often becomes a case of not looking to see what's going on, but twisting the observations to support a predetermined hypothesis.  At that point, you're determined to find something, and you will find something whether it's actually there or not.

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The bigger problem is that it often becomes a case of not looking to see what's going on, but twisting the observations to support a predetermined hypothesis. At that point, you're determined to find something, and you will find something whether it's actually there or not.

I don't see that as the bigger problem but a result of the bigger problem. The bigger... and main... problem is the unhealthy condition of the marriage/individual that causes the lack of trust.

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  • 9 months later...

When my children told me they were going to be at a certain place, my husband and I went and checked to see if they were indeed there. It wasn't a secret that we would do this, it also set the precedence that they had better be where they said they would be.

 

My parents were extremely lax with me and my siblings and I resented it as I got older. I wanted my children to get through their teenage years without looking back on major transgressions. And they did. They knew we cared and were looking out for their welfare. A parent has stewardship over their children. I would never read a diary or journal unless given permission.

I did not twist observations nor was determined to find something. I simply looked out for the welfare of my children.

 

My son was reading an article about tent city in Arizona one day. He made this observation. " If I ever got arrested and went to tent city, I would tell them I need to be behind bars, because when my Mother gets here, there's gonna be trouble. haha

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When my children told me they were going to be at a certain place, my husband and I went and checked to see if they were indeed there. It wasn't a secret that we would do this, it also set the precedence that they had better be where they said they would be.

 

My parents were extremely lax with me and my siblings and I resented it as I got older. I wanted my children to get through their teenage years without looking back on major transgressions. And they did. They knew we cared and were looking out for their welfare. A parent has stewardship over their children. I would never read a diary or journal unless given permission.

I did not twist observations nor was determined to find something. I simply looked out for the welfare of my children.

 

My son was reading an article about tent city in Arizona one day. He made this observation. " If I ever got arrested and went to tent city, I would tell them I need to be behind bars, because when my Mother gets here, there's gonna be trouble. haha

I love it ...thanks for sharing that. I always thought if I got arrested as a teenager or taken down to the police station and they old have to call my parents .....I would be like ...please let me stay here ...because my Dad will be coming and it won't be pretty. Lol
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A few years ago I was in the audience at a stake event; I don't remember if it was stake conference or stake priesthood meeting.

One of the speakers told the audience to go ahead and remove the doors from their children's bedrooms.

His logic?

As minors living in [the parents'] house, they have no right to expect any privacy. Thus, you, the parent, have the right to look in on them at any minute of any day.

I had to leave the stake center or else I'd have burst out yelling at him.

edit - he said that all parents should do this, regardless of whether or not their kids have been causing problems. In his eyes, kids don't deserve one whit of privacy.

Edited by Ironhold
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A few years ago I was in the audience at a stake event; I don't remember if it was stake conference or stake priesthood meeting.

One of the speakers told the audience to go ahead and remove the doors from their children's bedrooms.

His logic?

As minors living in [the parents'] house, they have no right to expect any privacy. Thus, you, the parent, have the right to look in on them at any minute of any day.

I had to leave the stake center or else I'd have burst out yelling at him.

edit - he said that all parents should do this, regardless of whether or not their kids have been causing problems. In his eyes, kids don't deserve one whit of privacy.

 

I'm not sure I disagree with him. Why do children "deserve" privacy? A mother and father with their nine children living in a one-room hut don't have much privacy. I don't see that they have a "right" to expect it.

 

My children's bedrooms have doors that they shut, but I would be quick to remove those doors if I thought there were any need to, for disciplinary or other reasons -- as I have done in the past. I allow them to have bedroom doors, but I do not believe they deserve bedroom doors, any more than they "deserve" their stereo systems. I see their privacy more as a tool to foster modesty than as some sort of basic right.

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I always thought if I got arrested as a teenager or taken down to the police station and they old have to call my parents .

This made me smile. Mom's brother was a cop. Worked at the Cherry Street station in Seattle. When I went *downtown* on the bus, I always went to the *Cop Shop* to meet up with Uncle, we would go to lunch with some of the guys. They would tell me stories of parents of wayward kids bringing those kids in and asking to have them put behind bars to teach them lessons. 

 

What they did was put the kids in the interrogation rooms, and then putting the parents behind bars. After about an hour, they then asked the parents do you really want your son/daughter to experience what you just did??

 

Back then, 1968ish there really wasn't any place to go to learn how to be a better parent. The cops recommended that the entire family go to a church of their church. Be active in school and school sports. Listen to their children. 

 

I loved my Uncle. He was T.H.E. coolest man alive, other than my own Dad. 

 

As to being spied on by parents - I am their child. It is their house, their clothes that I am wearing, their food I am eating. As long as my diary they have just read is not made fodder for the family dinner table or over the backyard fence gab fest with the neighbors - then have at it. How else are they going to learn that eldest brother is knocking me around, or eldest sister takes wicked delight in scrubbing my neck with the brush meant for scrubbing the cement steps. I have moles on my neck - NOT dirt. Also, how else are they going to learn that my spelling needs improvement? They have 6 other kids to keep up with, and I am the quietest.

 

Also, that diary of my that they read has drawings in it that I drew. No way they matched the drawings on the walls going up the stairs. Those were done by next older sister. Just get her diary out and compare the drawings.

 

Oh, not a single interior door had a lock on it. Not even the bathrooms. My oldest brother attempted to put one on. The hook kind. After myself and next younger sister wet ourselves because he locked us out while he was taking a bath, Dad fixed the door. He used small screwdriver between the door and jamb, opened the door, then removed the entire door. Removed oldest brothers bedroom door too.

 

Mom and Grandma rigged up an old twin sheet curtain across the bathroom door. We didn't have a shower, just a tub. But there was an opaque shower curtain across the tub for privacy when we took a bath. With 12 people in the house, and only two toilets, no locks on those doors. The downstairs toilet was in a creepy room. I refused to use. Same for the three younger sibs under me. 

 

The age thing: 18 is the legal voting age. Any person 18 or older is considered an adult by the legal system, and no longer under the parent. So if my oldest brother at the age of 18, broke the law and still lived at home, our parents would not be held legally responsible. 

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I'm not sure I disagree with him. Why do children "deserve" privacy? A mother and father with their nine children living in a one-room hut don't have much privacy. I don't see that they have a "right" to expect it.

 

My children's bedrooms have doors that they shut, but I would be quick to remove those doors if I thought there were any need to, for disciplinary or other reasons -- as I have done in the past. I allow them to have bedroom doors, but I do not believe they deserve bedroom doors, any more than they "deserve" their stereo systems. I see their privacy more as a tool to foster modesty than as some sort of basic right.

He was talking preemptively.

As in "It doesn't matter if your kids haven't done anything wrong. Yank the doors off anyway."

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He was talking preemptively.

As in "It doesn't matter if your kids haven't done anything wrong. Yank the doors off anyway."

 

Yes, I understand. I'm still not sure I disagree. I don't practice that at my own home, but I'm not sure I see what's wrong with it. Children have no "right to privacy" as a general rule. I think as the child gets older and begins developing a sense of modesty, it's a good idea to provide him or her with a private space at appropriate times. But that's different from having some sort of expectation of one's own room with a door on it. In some cases, I think that might actually be a wise thing, so that the child never feels he's "all alone" with whatever temptations.

 

Can you explain what you think is wrong with not allowing one's children to have separate bedrooms with closeable doors?

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Yes, I understand. I'm still not sure I disagree. I don't practice that at my own home, but I'm not sure I see what's wrong with it. Children have no "right to privacy" as a general rule. I think as the child gets older and begins developing a sense of modesty, it's a good idea to provide him or her with a private space at appropriate times. But that's different from having some sort of expectation of one's own room with a door on it. In some cases, I think that might actually be a wise thing, so that the child never feels he's "all alone" with whatever temptations.

 

Can you explain what you think is wrong with not allowing one's children to have separate bedrooms with closeable doors?

1. Removing the door is going to send the wrong message to the children. It's saying "Mommy and daddy think you're a lying little delinquent who cannot be trusted, and so we're going to treat you like you're in prison." Some kids will break under the pressure of trying to please their parents and "earn" their door back, while others will reach the conclusion that if their parents believe them to be trouble-makers then they may as well live up to it.

2. By removing the door, parents are also removing a layer of protection for the children. Even if the parents leave the kids alone most times, there's still the very real risk that siblings and other people won't. And even if these individuals don't seek to bother the child who resides there, the child's possessions can still be vulnerable to intrusion. In extreme instances, it makes it that much harder for children to hide from would-be predators... which is why some predators actually do this.

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I acknowledge your strong feelings, but your reasons leave me completely unmoved. The message that the child receives is almost 100% dependent on what the parents tell the child. A simple "Daddy doesn't think it's safe for you to have a door that closes off your bedroom" will be sufficient for pretty much any child. They may not like it, but I see very little chance they would construe it to mean as you say.

 

As for the other, I could as easily (perhaps more easily) make the argument that molestors would close the door so as to hide their deeds, so the door is more of a danger than a help.

 

If a father thinks his children should not have doors on their bedrooms, then I am perfectly willing to let him make that determination without second-guessing his motives.

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