Do we rely on Faith too much?


Daraamanthas
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Yesterday a wonderful couple gave talks based on Pres Uchdorf's talk on faith in the last general conference.  During the good sister's speech, I couldn't help but notice that she seemed to be simply regurgitating the same scriptures uses to explain faith, but I felt that she missed the point. The whole thing felt like I was sitting in some other church listening to someone who really does not understand the true nature of the Gospel and the doctrines pertaining to it. This seems to be a common issue throughout the church these days.

 

I do not judge her for this, as I do not know her situation nor her level of knowledge.

 

She used Alma 32 to discuss growing the seed of faith.  This is a good scripture, but, it goes on to say that we should let the seed grow until it becomes knowledge and our faith is not neede on that particular point.

 

"The glory of God is intelligence" is another passage used, but again missed the point of gaining knowledge through Faith.

 

in D&C 9, Our Father Rebukes Oliver Cowdrey for simply expecting things to happen just because of his faith. Oliver was told to "Study it out in your mind, then ask me if it be right..."  In Moroni 10:3-5, the Lord clearly tells us to compare the new information with the old knowledge, make a determination as to the truth, then ask "in faith".

 

While faith is necessary for us to grow in our path of life, that faith MUST lead to testimony.  Testimony is knowledge. It is what you know.  Once a person has a testimony of a certain doctrine, faith in that doctrine cannot exist as one cancells the other. 

 

Are we as a people putting too much emphasis on faith over knowledge?  In every case I can find in the scriptures, faith leads to knowledge and faith becomes dormant. The more conversations I have with church members, the more I feel like we are stuck in the same rut tha Israel fell into, forgetting what the commandments were really about and what our true goal is. 

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Just FYI (maybe you know this) the comparison Alma makes to the seed is not faith. It is the word of God.

 

Alma 32:28

"Now, we will compare the word unto a seed." 

 

Sadly, our Primary doesn't help reinforce this lesson when teaching songs that say, "Faith is like a little seed / When planted, it will grow."

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Sadly, our Primary doesn't help reinforce this lesson when teaching songs that say, "Faith is like a little seed / When planted, it will grow."

 

Which also, sadly, implies that too many people understand the scriptures based on primary lessons rather than from actually having read the scriptures.

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I can't necessarily speak to the Mormon perspective on this one, but I can wage in on the traditional Christian debate on this topic.

 

You can't know that any particular Church is the right one if you don't first know that it exists, which demands that knowledge at least enter into the equation. On the other hand, there are plenty of atheists out there who know far more about Christian doctrine than your average person in the pews, so knowledge alone won't get you there either. Different denominations tend to weigh the importance of each differently, though protestants (which obviously are prevalent in the US) tend to place greater emphasis on the faith side of things.

 

I'd say the best bet, whether you're Mormon, Catholic, or anything else, is to take a more balanced approach. Obviously you need faith to accept whatever you believe is the principle source of revelation (scripture, bishops, general authorities, ect), but the fact that you have that faith doesn't get you off the hook for figuring out what that authoritative source actually says. After all, if you think that source has all the answers, you should probably bring your questions to it ;)

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I stand corrected.  We used that scripture to refer to faith while I was on my mission.

 

That also makes the point even stronger!  The members of this church, in general, are no better than those of any other, and are probably condemned even more, because we do not study and understand what is actually stated in the scriptures.

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That also makes the point even stronger!  The members of this church, in general, are no better than those of any other, and are probably condemned even more, because we do not study and understand what is actually stated in the scriptures.

 

Hey, speak for yourself! ;) :)

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I would submit that perhaps faith and knowledge are not two ends of the same path. They are, substantially, different planes altogether. Speaking in the terms of faith leading to knowledge and then faith growing dormant is valid, but not because the knowledge replaces the faith. Using it in these terms is treating faith as if it is nothing more than belief. But faith is significantly more than belief.

 

Alma 32 doesn't speak of faith not being needed, but rather, being dormant.

 

You bring up an interesting subject, but, I entirely reject the idea that we rely on Faith too much. Rather the other way around methinks.

 

I have more to say on the matter, but there's some thoughts for now.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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I stand corrected.  We used that scripture to refer to faith while I was on my mission.

 

That also makes the point even stronger!  The members of this church, in general, are no better than those of any other, and are probably condemned even more, because we do not study and understand what is actually stated in the scriptures.

 

Perhaps because it is closely related to faith. 

 

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselvesIt must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

 

I have taken the liberty to bold-face the portions that I feel are most directly related to faith, while the underlined portions are referring to the most pertinent phrases concerning the seed or the word. There is no doubt that this scripture, and Alma 32 in general clearly speak about faith. So I don't even think it is wrong to use the scripture to teach about faith in this context. However I agree that the seed itself is not faith, faith is really more like the fertility of the soil the seed is planted in and the maintenance of the ground thereafter. I think this may even help explain the two separate entities of faith and knowledge that TFP referred to... but I don't presume to speak for TFP, just venturing a guess that we're possibly on a similar wave-length (its been known to happen). As the seed (word) takes root and grows into a tree with fruit (knowledge?) we have now had faith that grew the word into knowledge. Now if the ground is not kept fertile (faithful) then the tree (expanded base of the word) and the fruit (knowledge) can wither away and still be left barren.

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Perhaps because it is closely related to faith. 

 

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselvesIt must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

 

I have taken the liberty to bold-face the portions that I feel are most directly related to faith, while the underlined portions are referring to the most pertinent phrases concerning the seed or the word. There is no doubt that this scripture, and Alma 32 in general clearly speak about faith. So I don't even think it is wrong to use the scripture to teach about faith in this context. However I agree that the seed itself is not faith, faith is really more like the fertility of the soil the seed is planted in and the maintenance of the ground thereafter. I think this may even help explain the two separate entities of faith and knowledge that TFP referred to... but I don't presume to speak for TFP, just venturing a guess that we're possibly on a similar wave-length (its been known to happen). As the seed (word) takes root and grows into a tree with fruit (knowledge?) we have now had faith that grew the word into knowledge. Now if the ground is not kept fertile (faithful) then the tree (expanded base of the word) and the fruit (knowledge) can wither away and still be left barren.

 

Excellent.

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I didn't read all the posts. Our sacrament meeting was on faith as well. To me it was an awesome meeting. I felt the spirit so strongly. Some one asked me if I was in love I said no I wish I was! She said to me I looked so beautiful, my face was so lite up. I knew what she saw was the spirit!! I felt it so strongly in my face. I've learned that it's up to each one of us, what we get out of our meetings. I have come to feel that sunday is indeed the best day of the week. This is coming from some one who use to, rather sleep in then be @ church. I hope to never be that person again. Don't look for faults. None of us are perfect, some are not good speaker s, I have learned to listen and let the spirit take over get what I need. In most case s not in all. For I am far from perfect. . ..

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I think the key to the parable is verse 34:

 

 

 

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

 

Now, read it closely.  What do I "know"?  Not necessarily that Joseph Smith is a prophet, or that Thomas Monson is a prophet, or that "the church is true".  No; what I know is that "the word is good".

 

This resonates with my own spiritual journey.  I believe in God; I do not know He exists.  I believe Jesus Christ is my Savior; I do not know it by any of the criteria that would establish me as a credible witness in a court of law.  I believe Joseph Smith to have been a prophet; I believe Thomas Monson to be a current prophet; I believe the LDS Church to be the kingdom of God on earth today. 

 

But I know that "the word"--Mormon teaching as embodied in Mormon scripture and through the institution of the Mormon church--is good.  I know that following it produces growth; that it enlarges my soul; that it enlightens and enlarges my mind; that it is delicious to me.  And that's the knowledge that keeps me coming back for more.  Eventually, that limited knowledge will allow me to replace my faith/belief in these other tenets, with direct knowledge thereof; until the "perfect day" spoken of in D&C 50:24.

 

On another tangent:  if faith--however defined--is incompatible with knowledge, then how do we explain Joseph Smith's teaching (in Lectures on Faith, Lecture First) that God Himself has faith and governs the universe thereby?

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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In mortality, I'm not convinced we can literally "know" anything. We pretty much act on faith in everything. We claim we "know" but we don't really. We trust what we strongly believe and act on it. That's faith.

 

Of course that idea gets a bit out there when you get into ideas like are we all in a big Matrix, is the sky blue, does China exist, etc. But when it comes to spiritual things, not many of us have the privilege of "knowing" and even those who do don't really know. In fact, the world plainly claims those who experience visions are delusional.

 

Either way, I'm not convinced knowledge is the key.

 

We have Laban and Lemuel as a prime example. They, technically, "knew". God spoke to them directly. Angels appeared to them time and again.  And yet they had no faith. Can we argue that their faith was merely "dormant" because they knew.  Hardly. Their faith never existed. They had no faith to become dormant even in the face of knowledge.

 

Satan has knowledge. He knows God exists. He knows Christ is the Savior. Etc. It has no meaning. Knowledge is insufficient. Faith is required.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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Faith drives to action. That action shows the character, the heart of the person. Knowledge is used, but only occasionally contributes to action, which is still driven by faith.
 

You know [something] is bad for you, but do you really want to stop doing it?

That's knowledge^

 

You have a desire to do better. You change [something].

^That's faith

(Sometimes you don't even know if changing [something] is the right thing to do. You trust, act, and then can testify that through your faith you have changed, and that the fruit of it is sweet.)

 

Maybe simplified much. I hope I have communicated clearly though.

Edited by Crypto
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Faith drives to action.

 

Respectfully, in my opinion, this is inaccurate. Faith does not drive action. That is the typical LDS reading of "faith without works is dead", like they're two separate entities and one is dead without the action. But I read it that faith is dead without works in the same way the soul is dead without both body and spirit. The two make up the soul. And so it is without action. Faith is not faith without action, just the same as faith is not faith without believe. In point of fact, I believe that action is more important to faith than belief is. I can have belief issues and still act in faith. I cannot, however, believe and fail to act and still call it faith.

 

Accordingly, almost the opposite of your statement is true. (Not literally, of course. It wouldn't make total sense to say that action drives to faith. But to state the action renders faith might be viable.)

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Respectfully, in my opinion, this is inaccurate. Faith does not drive action. That is the typical LDS reading of "faith without works is dead", like they're two separate entities and one is dead without the action. But I read it that faith is dead without works in the same way the soul is dead without both body and spirit. The two make up the soul. And so it is without action. Faith is not faith without action, just the same as faith is not faith without believe. In point of fact, I believe that action is more important to faith than belief is. I can have belief issues and still act in faith. I cannot, however, believe and fail to act and still call it faith.

 

Accordingly, almost the opposite of your statement is true. (Not literally, of course. It wouldn't make total sense to say that action drives to faith. But to state the action renders faith might be viable.)

Maybe not "drives" the action. But is the foundation of action.

I take my view based on the lectures on faith.

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Maybe not "drives" the action. But is the foundation of action.

I take my view based on the lectures on faith.

 

The lectures on Faith teach that faith is "the principle of action in all intelligent beings" (emphasis mine). I agree that it may be termed the foundation of action.

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The members of this church, in general, are no better than those of any other

 

Who said we were? We shouldn't be putting ourselves above any of another faith, anyway.

 

We do have more opportunity for learning the fullness of the truth, yes. We're accountable for what measure of that truth we gain. But even within our church, everyone is in a different place on their own path to testimony. I think the greater fault lies in criticizing the sister who was speaking on faith either for not having the understanding you do, or more likely, for not having the perfect ability to express it. 

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The members of this church, in general, are no better than those of any other

 

Why not? If this is true, what is the point of membership in this Church?

 

President McKay taught that the gospel was designed to make bad men good and good men better. If this is true, we should expect LDS members, on average, to be better than those who are not members. (In fact, this should be true of any religion that provides a spiritual benefit for its members.)

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I'm not worried about being better than anyone else, just better than I was yesterday.

 

As well you shouldn't be. But the point is, are Latter-day Saints really no better than anyone else? If so, that's a strong argument against the truthfulness of the restored gospel and the utility of the Church as an institution.

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