Syme Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I heard somewhere that in the resurrection, we will have the same bodies that we do now, only perfected. How this will happen with cremation, etc. we don't know. Is there some deeper significance to this? Why doesn't God just give us new bodies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmiGerman Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) I heard somewhere that in the resurrection, we will have the same bodies that we do now, only perfected. How this will happen with cremation, etc. we don't know. Is there some deeper significance to this? Why doesn't God just give us new bodies? When I'm talking about God, I certainly do it in the meaning of a supernatural power, with technological abilities surely comprising methods and applications far beyond our imagination (i.e. "creation"). For me, God exists in a higher dimensional multiverse (instead of "universe"), and for him the four-dimensional spacetime (three-dimensional space plus velocity and "time") is maybe only a lower part of a multi dimensional super space (however, "space" wouldn't be the right word). As former spiritual beings in God's sphere or multiverse we have been reduced (from a higher-dimensional "spiritual" being) to experience a lower existence in a mortal body. This, according to the Mormons' belief, is part of God's great plan of redemption. I would also call it refinement. During our mortal existence we have to make choices. This is also part of the Mormon belief. After we will have been gone through this mortal status, with new experiences, knowledge, insights, worthy and deserving the next step of an eternal progress God Allmighty has planned for us, during a certain time in the Ghost World, a spiritual form of existence, after we've lost our physical body, we will be expecting God's final judgement, and maybe become resurrected as immortal beings, with a physical body and our soul (the spiritual part) united and inseparable combined forever and eternally. Coming back to your question I would say, this will be some kind of a new body; improved, without former handycaps, calamities or disabilities, but in the same shape and with the same physiognomics and characteristics as before. You've mentioned "cremation", but this means nothing for God. He can delete and restore. This is part of his allmightyness. Of course we can't see how it works, but could a man of, let's say, the 15th century once imagine men were landing on the Moon? Or even on Mars? What a radio was? And could a man of the, let's say, beginning 1950s imagine what a computer was and how people communicated via internet...? God is billions and billions of years ahead, eons and eons. It's always difficult for me to understand or accept peoples' naive questions concerning God if, besides, the questioner ignores God's allmightyness and inconceivable technological abilities. And if you say "technology" isn't the right word, I would like to ask you for a better one. But in this connection or sense the word "technology" should not be understood within the frame of its common meaning according to human technological achievements. In German we make a difference between das selbe... and das gleiche... and this means the same is not always exactly the same. Therefore, a duplicate wouldn't be the same as the original. But imagine God's technology would be able to restore a human being, his physical body, with the same atoms or subparticles and molecular structures, and under further aspects we don't know and we can't imagine, so that it would be the same person (united with his soul) again. And would you say there is no eternity only because a human mind can't imagine there was one...? Edited January 28, 2015 by JimmiGerman Vort and Edspringer 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I heard somewhere that in the resurrection, we will have the same bodies that we do now, only perfected. How this will happen with cremation, etc. we don't know. Is there some deeper significance to this? Why doesn't God just give us new bodies? From dust we came and to dust we shall return. Our physical bodies are going to dust. Our spirit bodies - created in pre-mortal existence - is what is going to resurrect and be perfected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmiGerman Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) From dust we came and to dust we shall return. Our physical bodies are going to dust. Our spirit bodies - created in pre-mortal existence - is what is going to resurrect and be perfected. Sorry, but this doesn't answer his question completely. I think we should bring the aspect of an inconceivable higher technology in here, and see God Allmighty as a supernatural power acting beyond our technological and scientific knowledge. From my point of view, and many sections of D & C and the words of Joseph Smith have inspired me to see it like this, God Allmighty has the knowledge, the power, and the technology to restore everything. So our physical bodies may go to dust, but what does it mean? As I've mentioned before, the atoms, or let's even talk about subatomic particles and pure energy, remain. "Dust" is matter, and from matter and energy God can create or restore everything, with the efficiency and unbelievable arithmetic ability of a quantum computer which works on the other side of our image of temporal events (see quantum coherence); that's what I am convinced of. And, at least, don't forget Joseph Smith's word, that all spirit is matter, only fine and more purely... Edited January 28, 2015 by JimmiGerman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I won't go into too many particulars since Catholics and LDS tend to differ a bit on some of these things, but I do think either camp can probably admit to there being some "principle of continuity." Obviously we all have standard issue "mortal" bodies right now. Throughout our lives, from conception to birth to adulthood to old age and death, those bodies change in a pretty radical way. The physical matter that makes up my body right now is probably 99+% different from the physical matter that made it up when I was first born, but we still consider it to be the "same" body. What this means is that, over and apart from the physical stuff making us up, there has to be some underlying unchanging thing that makes us up. For a Catholic, this would be the soul which orders and gives form to the body. For LDS, I think anatess was probably on the right track with your spirit bodies (I'll leave it to other LDS to determine if that's accurate or not). Regardless, we know from observing our physical bodies that there's some unperceived principle of continuity at work. I think that whatever that principle is, it will likely be present in your resurrected body as well. askandanswer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Sorry, but this doesn't answer his question completely. I think we should bring the aspect of an inconceivable higher technology in here, and see God Allmighty as a supernatural power acting beyond our technological and scientific knowledge. From my point of view, and many sections of D & C and the words of Joseph Smith have inspired me to see it like this, God Allmighty has the knowledge, the power, and the technology to restore everything. So our physical bodies may go to dust, but what does it mean? As I've mentioned before, the atoms, or let's even talk about subatomic particles and pure energy, remain. "Dust" is matter, and from matter and energy God can create or restore everything. That's what I am convinced of. And, at least, don't forget Joseph Smith's word, that all mind is matter, only fine and more purely... Germans and their engineering... Okay, from an engineering standpoint - the physical body is the vehicle that provides the desires, strengths, weaknesses, challenges, and opposition to our Spirits. It's like the training wheel on the bicycle. It prepares our Spirits to learn to drive the real-deal big-boy bicycle, which is our Spirit Bodies. Now, the real-deal big-boy bicycle (spirit matter) was created by God in pre-mortal existence and given to our Spirits to exercise dominion over. But, our intelligences do not have the necessary experience (knowledge, truth) to gain the proper balance to ride that bicycle. So, the Plan of Our Salvation was masterminded by God to give us physical bodies (created from dust matter) over our Spirit Bodies for our intelligences to learn on. At our death, the training wheels come off (dust matter goes back to dust), our Spirit Bodies get resurrected (spirit matter perfected), and our intelligences should be able to ride this real-deal big-boy bicycle according to what we have learned with our training wheels. Now, if you're a crazy bicycle driver who keeps running over the orange cones with your training wheels, you'll have to go to the Telestial roadway so you don't hurt the not-as-crazy drivers who are in the Terrestrial roadway. If you're super perfect on your training wheels, you get to ride with God in the celestial roadway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmiGerman Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) (...) The physical matter that makes up my body right now is probably 99+% different from the physical matter that made it up when I was first born, but we still consider it to be the "same" body. What this means is that, over and apart from the physical stuff making us up, there has to be some underlying unchanging thing that makes us up. (...) Even if I can accept that our body changes, that metabolism and growth takes place, and that everything and everybody must also stand in a clearly defined temporal context (and here the Americans, in this regard, with their grammar and tenses, are a little bit ahead in comparison to us ), I'm tending to the conviction, that the genetic code and the DNA show firmly the same patterns since our birth. We still don't know enough about matter and quantum phenomena, and, therefore, we should be very careful calling God's abilities to restore something into question. And, by the way, I think that God would consider our individual wishes - within some certain limits, of course - at the process of the final resurrection or restoration, because somewhere everyone has a picture of himself, and we would remember with pleasure how we once were, with maybe a certain image of how we were once, when the sun still was standing for us in the zenith of our life... Edited January 28, 2015 by JimmiGerman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmiGerman Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Germans and their engineering... Okay, from an engineering standpoint - the physical body is the vehicle that provides the desires, strengths, weaknesses, challenges, and opposition to our Spirits. It's like the training wheel on the bicycle. It prepares our Spirits to learn to drive the real-deal big-boy bicycle, which is our Spirit Bodies. Now, the real-deal big-boy bicycle (spirit matter) was created by God in pre-mortal existence and given to our Spirits to exercise dominion over. But, our intelligences do not have the necessary experience (knowledge, truth) to gain the proper balance to ride that bicycle. So, the Plan of Our Salvation was masterminded by God to give us physical bodies (created from dust matter) over our Spirit Bodies for our intelligences to learn on. At our death, the training wheels come off (dust matter goes back to dust), our Spirit Bodies get resurrected (spirit matter perfected), and our intelligences should be able to ride this real-deal big-boy bicycle according to what we have learned with our training wheels. Now, if you're a crazy bicycle driver who keeps running over the orange cones with your training wheels, you'll have to go to the Telestial roadway so you don't hurt the not-as-crazy drivers who are in the Terrestrial roadway. If you're super perfect on your training wheels, you get to ride with God in the celestial roadway. A good comparison. Maybe you're right to say that it's (only) our Spirit Bodies that will be resurrected, and maybe that makes things even a bit easier, seen from the technological point of view. I remember, when I was a very young boy, my parents bought me my first bicycle. But I was so much ashamed of the training wheels, and the other boys (and not to forget the girls...) were laughing about me, so that I was learning very quickly to ride on the bike and to get rid of the training wheels. I've never learned something so quickly any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmarch Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) I heard somewhere that in the resurrection, we will have the same bodies that we do now, only perfected. How this will happen with cremation, etc. we don't know. Is there some deeper significance to this? Why doesn't God just give us new bodies?i've always taken "same" to refer to the form rather than the actual same material. IMO Edited January 28, 2015 by Blackmarch The Folk Prophet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Even if I can accept that our body changes, that metabolism and growth takes place, and that everything and everybody must also stand in a clearly defined temporal context (and here the Americans, in this regard, with their grammar and tenses, are a little bit ahead in comparison to us ), I'm tending to the conviction, that the genetic code and the DNA show firmly the same patterns since our birth. We still don't know enough about matter and quantum phenomena, and, therefore, we should be very careful calling God's abilities to restore something into question. And, by the way, I think that God would consider our individual wishes - within some certain limits, of course - at the process of the final resurrection or restoration, because somewhere everyone has a picture of himself, and we would remember with pleasure how we once were, with maybe a certain image of how we were once, when the sun still was standing for us in the zenith of our life... I'd agree that our DNA tends to stay the same throughout our lives, and would even go so far as to say that then general structure of our bodies (i.e. 2 arms, 2 legs, a working heart, ect) stays largely the same. My point really was that the individual atoms that makes those things up do, for the most part, swap out. I think the OP's question was wondering why a new (but otherwise identical) body wasn't given to us instead of the perfected original bodies (if I'm understanding correctly). In other words, if God has to the option to either rebuild and perfect my current body, or to build a new (but otherwise identical) body, why would he choose the former. My point then was that the resurrected body could hypothetically be atom-for-atom different from our original body, but still be the "same" body by virtue of some underlying principle of continuity (whatever makes a thing what it is). From what I know of LDS theology, which is admittedly limited, I think Anatess' spirit body could be that "principle." The new resurrected body could be otherwise entirely new, but it is still "our" body by virtue of the fact that its our spirit body that inhabits/animates it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiritDragon Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Germans and their engineering... Okay, from an engineering standpoint - the physical body is the vehicle that provides the desires, strengths, weaknesses, challenges, and opposition to our Spirits. It's like the training wheel on the bicycle. It prepares our Spirits to learn to drive the real-deal big-boy bicycle, which is our Spirit Bodies. Now, the real-deal big-boy bicycle (spirit matter) was created by God in pre-mortal existence and given to our Spirits to exercise dominion over. But, our intelligences do not have the necessary experience (knowledge, truth) to gain the proper balance to ride that bicycle. So, the Plan of Our Salvation was masterminded by God to give us physical bodies (created from dust matter) over our Spirit Bodies for our intelligences to learn on. At our death, the training wheels come off (dust matter goes back to dust), our Spirit Bodies get resurrected (spirit matter perfected), and our intelligences should be able to ride this real-deal big-boy bicycle according to what we have learned with our training wheels. Now, if you're a crazy bicycle driver who keeps running over the orange cones with your training wheels, you'll have to go to the Telestial roadway so you don't hurt the not-as-crazy drivers who are in the Terrestrial roadway. If you're super perfect on your training wheels, you get to ride with God in the celestial roadway. Maybe I'm completely missing what you're trying to say. I'm reading this to mean that you don't think we'll have physical bodies in the resurrection, but that the "body" being resurrected is only our spirit body. Is that what you mean to say. If so I believe it is fundamentally flawed. The atonement overcame both spritual and physical death. We (our spirit bodies) are reunited with our physical bodies. However I agree that they won't be exactly the same as they are now, because they'll be perfected and there are varying glories they can attain, such that they are obviously not exact replicas of our current ones in form and function (not having blood is a clue). I am also in the camp that assumes the same in this context has mainly to do with appearance, while the continuity of memories comes with our spirits. Edited January 28, 2015 by SpiritDragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 It is my belief and understanding that we will be resurrected as ourselves and not as anybody else. Whatever it is that is actually and uniquely you is what will be resurrected. Sometimes words and their definitions are important. Take the term salvation. This word has the same root as the word salvage. When we salvage a ship wreak we gather up that which remains that has value. I believe this is important to understand. In essence I believe we are salvaged in the resurrection according to those "elements" that have remaining value. I believe this is why the scriptures differentiate the resurrection. JimmiGerman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmiGerman Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) I'd agree that our DNA tends to stay the same throughout our lives, and would even go so far as to say that then general structure of our bodies (i.e. 2 arms, 2 legs, a working heart, ect) stays largely the same. My point really was that the individual atoms that makes those things up do, for the most part, swap out. (...) You are surprising me, because you are right. The process of breathing and the metabolism of our body swaps out an uncountable number of atoms. With one single breath we take up approx. 10 high 22 atoms of our universe, a number of 22 zeros. The substantial amount of raw material from our universe spreads till the very back corners of our body, till the cerebral cells, heart cells, nephric cells etc. while exhaling approx. the same number of atoms that come from our body. So we breath out literally parts of our heart and our brain (some people more, some less ) and our nephric fabric etc. Edited January 28, 2015 by JimmiGerman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmiGerman Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 It is my belief and understanding that we will be resurrected as ourselves and not as anybody else. Whatever it is that is actually and uniquely you is what will be resurrected. Sometimes words and their definitions are important. Take the term salvation. This word has the same root as the word salvage. When we salvage a ship wreak we gather up that which remains that has value. I believe this is important to understand. In essence I believe we are salvaged in the resurrection according to those "elements" that have remaining value. I believe this is why the scriptures differentiate the resurrection. But what if there were not so many elements that have remained value...? Okay - I see the point. Then you will not be restored. And fifty-fifty ...? And if there have remained 50 percent good value and 50 percent bad value ...? Let the coin decide then ...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 You are surprising me, because you are right. Thanks...I think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmiGerman Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Thanks...I think... "So why not converting...?" Dakota medicine man Blue Feather would ask you... (Maybe he looks a bit angry, but not all Dakota are like that, not even the South Dakota. Yelo!) Edited January 28, 2015 by JimmiGerman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordorbund Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Review the parable of the talents (it should be called the parable on the principle of stewardship). At the end, the faithful retain their stewardship. When the earth is celestialized, who will dwell on it? Does God bring in glorified, resurrected persons from someplace else? A new population? When you are exalted with a family, is it someone else's family that is given to you? A new family? When you are resurrected, are you given your own body or some other one? A new body? Vort 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmiGerman Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) (...) When you are resurrected, are you given your own body or some other one? A new body? Or will you remain a nobody...? Edited January 28, 2015 by JimmiGerman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 "So why not converting...?" Dakota medicine man Blue Feather would ask you... (Maybe he looks a bit angry, but not all Dakota are like that, not even the South Dakota. Yelo!) If the Dakota medicine man blue feather is asking me, should I be converting to some form of Native American spirituality? Mostly because feathers aren't a good look for me Blackmarch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmiGerman Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 If the Dakota medicine man blue feather is asking me, should I be converting to some form of Native American spirituality? Mostly because feathers aren't a good look for me I'm some kind of sure you wouldn't. Anyway, we share our opinion about feathers. They aren't a good look for me, either. Astonishing similarities we have... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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