Eagle Scout Court of Honor vs Young Womanhood Recognition

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I hope I don't open a can of worms here.   My son just earned his eagle, and I knew I needed to do something...refreshements? decorations? for the court of honor so I started doing a little searching on the internet.  I learned (from a BSA pamphlet) that the whole shebang is the parents responsibility...from location, invitations, pictures, decorations, refreshments and the program.  Wowzer.  

 

Ok, I can do that...maybe.  I mean it's not my forte but with some help from friends, Pinterest and my awesome daughter . . .

 

Yikes!  My awesome daughter....she earned her Young Womanhood Medallion TWICE.  What did we do for her?  Nothing.  The Bishop gave her the medallion in Sacrament meeting.  And that was it.  

Now I'm going to plan this major event for my son and I feel massive guilt.  Why don't we give the girls more recognition for their accomplishments???  And someone please tell me what to do with this guilt....I seriously feel bad about this.  It sucks.

[Guest]

We had several YW now that got some kind of medallion at sacrament meeting... the YW presidency with the parents always do something for them.

 

We also had a YM get an eagle (the first that we had in... I think 10 years!).. the scoutmaster had a shebang with his parents.

[Just_A_Guy]

For better or for worse, the YW Recognition Program (as I understand it) just isn't the equivalent of the Eagle Scout program--the latter has many, many more hoops to jump through and covers, for the most part, a fundamentally different skill set. That said, some of the "Eagle projects" I see in Utah these days leave me shaking my head . . . (Where I grew up, if there was no concrete-pouring involved, it wasn't an Eagle project. Going out with your mom to put safety fliers on a hundred neighborhood doors for an hour one Saturday morning is NOT an Eagle project, kids.)

I think the analogue for YW Recognition/Personal Progress is the YM Duty to God (though from a cursory review, the latter actually seems somewhat cushier); and we don't make awarding the DtG a very big deal either.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[The Folk Prophet]

I don't remember a big shebang when I got my eagle. I don't even think there were refreshments. Of course this was over 25 years ago...so I may not remember correctly. But I know (whether there were refreshments or not) that it wasn't a BIG shebang.

[Vort]

For better or for worse, the YW Recognition Program (as I understand it) just isn't the equivalent of the Eagle Scout program--the latter has many, many more hoops to jump through and covers, for the most part, a fundamentally different skill set. That said, some of the "Eagle projects" I see in Utah these days leave me shaking my head . . . (Where I grew up, if there was no concrete-pouring involved, it wasn't an Eagle project. Going out with your mom to put safety fliers on a hundred neighborhood doors for an hour one Saturday morning is NOT an Eagle project, kids.)

I think the analogue for YW Recognition/Personal Progress is the YM Duty to God (though from a cursory review, the latter actually seems somewhat cushier); and we don't make awarding the DtG a very big deal either.

 

Agreed on all points. Weenie Eagle Scout projects have been a problem in the past with LDS Scouts in my council. Hasn't been a problem with our unit any time in at least the last 15 or 20 years, though. All our Scouts have had pretty solid Eagle Scout projects.

 

My oldest son led a team of about 30 people in surveying an old cemetery, recording all information on each headstone and photographing it, then correlating that information, putting in on a spreadsheet, and sending it to several genealogical organizations. (We guesstimated 400 or so headstones. We were off by only about 1,000.)

 

My second son headed a team of around 20 to silently solicit donations from patrons at four local supermarkets by handing them small slips of paper as they entered. The fliers told about the local Ronald McDonald house and gave a list of items they needed. Result: 2,500 pounds of food and other household goods for the Seattle Ronald McDonald house. You should have seen their faces when we hauled the stuff in. They were overjoyed, but we were stacking boxes in the hallway so they could figure out how to store all the stuff.

 

Sorry for the sidetrack. I agree that the YW recognition is not equivalent to the Eagle Scout award, so there is no need to feel bad about making a bigger deal of one than of the other.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Vort

[omegaseamaster75]

I happen to think that we short sheet our YW, YW recognition's are only mentioned in passing and are not given their due. It is not small thing to accomplish what your daughter has done.

 

Then we wonder why they want the priesthood...hmmm

[Vort]

I think the analogue for YW Recognition/Personal Progress is the YM Duty to God (though from a cursory review, the latter actually seems somewhat cushier); and we don't make awarding the DtG a very big deal either.

 

I don't believe Duty to God is even announced in sacrament meeting, just in the Priesthood session of stake conference. That's how I remember it, anyway.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Thanks you guys, that does help.  My husband was a Scoutmaster for many years and shares your opinion about wimpy Eagle Projects.  So no wimpy projects here, LOL.  My son's project was to put in a garden for the local community food bank...it was a 3,000 hr project (he got a lot of support from the ward thank goodness).  It's a huge garden.  Other food banks have talked to my husband (he's also a Master Gardner) about putting in gardens at their locations as well.  You are right, my daughter didn't do anything to that scale for her YW Project. 

 

I talked to her about this and she's fine with it so that helps too. So I'm off to Pinterest to get some ideas....

 

Would you believe the BSA pamphlet actually said "some people compare it to a wedding reception, and really it is,"  Oy vey!  Wish me luck.

[Jane_Doe]

There’s only been one incident in my life where I’ve church gender issues thrown in my face, and it was this issue. 

 

My Grandpa’s a big scout supporter- any time a grandkid has a Court of Honor he rearranges his schedule and flies to be there.  When I earned my Young Women’s Award, it was going to recognized at our YW New Beginnings.  I was “in charge” of planning that New Beginnings, so I carefully arranged things to be the week of my Grandpa’s annual visit.  Excitedly I asked him if he could extend his stay one night so he could see me get my award.  And he said “no”.   I was crushed!

 

Thankfully he saw the error in his ways and did stay (my mom ‘enlightened’ him).  But that was a tough experience for me.

 

*Disclaimer: I make no comment on the YW vs Eagle Scout work load.  I’ve no brothers so I’ve never seen the work they put into it.  I know that the work put in the YW award varied greatly between me and each of my sisters.  I also know that people liked to be recognized different ways (I would have been mortified at a Court of Honor for me).

Edited January 30, 2015 by Jane_Doe

[Jane_Doe]

 

Would you believe the BSA pamphlet actually said "some people compare it to a wedding reception, and really it is,"  Oy vey!  Wish me luck.

 

Heck no!  Whoever said that has NO idea how much "modern" wedding receptions are.  Don't put yourself through that LP.

[Vort]

Thanks you guys, that does help.  My husband was a Scoutmaster for many years and shares your opinion about wimpy Eagle Projects.  So no wimpy projects here, LOL.  My son's project was to put in a garden for the local community food bank...it was a 3,000 hr project (he got a lot of support from the ward thank goodness).  It's a huge garden.  Other food banks have talked to my husband (he's also a Master Gardner) about putting in gardens at their locations as well.  You are right, my daughter didn't do anything to that scale for her YW Project. 

 

I would also point out that it is not just the Eagle Scout project we're considering. The Eagle Scout rank is the culmination of many years of directed effort, analogous perhaps to graduating from high school. And it's incidental to the Church, although of course highly respected. I don't know of any Church literature or any kind of official teaching (above the local level) stating that young men should make it a priority to attain the rank of Eagle Scout.

[Vort]

And good luck!

[Guest]

That leads me to a side topic.. (I don't think this is a derailment from the OP, but if so, let me know and I'll open up a new thread).

 

Avoiding the feeling of "Favoritism" in our children.

 

It seems like in the case of our YM/YW programs... we seem to require a lot more from the YM than the YW.  Thus the icky feeling of not doing something for our daughters as we do for our sons.

 

When I was a kid, I had more rules than my brothers - my brothers can ride bikes, wear pants, romp around without supervision... I can't ride bikes, can't wear pants, and can only go places if one of my brothers go with me.  I was a rebel kid, so I accused my parents of favoritism and I would jump the gate never to be seen from again until midnight (6:01PM gets the same yelling as 2AM).

 

Anyway, now that I have my kids - I have 2 sons - I don't really pay much attention to anything that they might think is "favoritism".  Just last year, we went to dinner with some friends and I happen to mention - yeah, my younger son is the handsome one.  They were shocked that I would say that infront of my children.  I didn't think that's favoritism - I think that's just the way it is.  I asked my kids if they think it's favoritism and my oldest son said something like - "That doesn't bother me.  He is handsome, I am smart.  But yes, you are closer to my brother and do more things for him.  No big deal.  It's not like you are mean to me or anything."

 

That made me think... So, I asked my husband about it and he said - yeah, they talked about it before and my husband just told him - so what if your mother does more for you brother, do you not feel she loves you the exact same?  So yeah, my husband told him love is a lot more than just the stuff you get.

 

But yes, I still feel terrible that I have been unknowingly playing favorites.

[Jane_Doe]

That leads me to a side topic.. (I don't think this is a derailment from the OP, but if so, let me know and I'll open up a new thread).

 

Avoiding the feeling of "Favoritism" in our children.

 

It seems like in the case of our YM/YW programs... we seem to require a lot more from the YM than the YW.  Thus the icky feeling of not doing something for our daughters as we do for our sons.

 

When I was a kid, I had more rules than my brothers - my brothers can ride bikes, wear pants, romp around without supervision... I can't ride bikes, can't wear pants, and can only go places if one of my brothers go with me.  I was a rebel kid, so I accused my parents of favoritism and I would jump the gate never to be seen from again until midnight (6:01PM gets the same yelling as 2AM).

 

Anyway, now that I have my kids - I have 2 sons - I don't really pay much attention to anything that they might think is "favoritism".  Just last year, we went to dinner with some friends and I happen to mention - yeah, my younger son is the handsome one.  They were shocked that I would say that infront of my children.  I didn't think that's favoritism - I think that's just the way it is.  I asked my kids if they think it's favoritism and my oldest son said something like - "That doesn't bother me.  He is handsome, I am smart.  But yes, you are closer to my brother and do more things for him.  No big deal.  It's not like you are mean to me or anything."

 

That made me think... So, I asked my husband about it and he said - yeah, they talked about it before and my husband just told him - so what if your mother does more for you brother, do you not feel she loves you the exact same?  So yeah, my husband told him love is a lot more than just the stuff you get.

 

But yes, I still feel terrible that I have been unknowingly playing favorites.

 

 

This probably needs it's own thread...

 

I'm not the pretty sibling- I'll freely admit it.  That title belongs to my third sister, and she puts a lot of work into her appearance, whereas I just don't care about that stuff.  Now, if you want to talk puzzles that's a different story... 

 

You can't treat kids identical-- it's just not possible.  And even if you could, that'll be robbing them of their individuality.  What's more important is that each kid is recognized and loved equally.

[yjacket]

I tell my kids that there is no end to how much I love each one of them, but that the way I show love to each is a little different, simply because each of their needs are different.  Sometimes it is tough helping them understand the differences.

 

On topic, the YW Medallion while extremely important is just not the same level as earning an Eagle Scout.

 

Quickly looked over the requirements (I'm sure I'll be more familiar with it later in life), it requires hard work in 8 separate areas and looking at the requirements of each area it seems to me that each area is analogous to a BSA merit badge.

Earning an Eagle is extremely prestigious.  Only 5% of the boys who are ever Boy Scouts ever earn their Eagle.  I imagine this is more in places like Utah, but even there unless it's handed to you on a silver platter (which should not be done) it is still very prestigious.

Let's list the requirements for Eagle:

1. Be active in your troop, team, crew, or ship for a period of at least six months after you have achieved the rank of Life Scout.
2. Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your daily life. List on your Eagle Scout Rank Application the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious, educational, and employer references.
3. Earn a total of 21 merit badges (10 more than you already have), including the following:
   1. First Aid
   2. Citizenship in the Community
   3. Citizenship in the Nation
   4. Citizenship in the World
   5. Communication
   6. Cooking
   7. Personal Fitness
   8. Emergency Preparedness OR Lifesaving
   9. Environmental Science OR Sustainability
   10. Personal Management
   11. Swimming OR Hiking OR Cycling
   12. Camping
   13. Family Life

You must choose only one merit badge listed in items h, i, and k. If you have earned more than one of the badges listed in items h, i, and k, choose one and list the remaining badges to make your total of 21.

4. While a Life Scout, serve actively in your unit for a period of six months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility. List only those position served after your Life board of review date.
   • Boy Scout troop. Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, Venture patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, instructor, webmaster, or Leave No Trace trainer.
   • Varsity Scout team. Captain, cocaptain, program manager, squad leader, team secretary, Order of the Arrow team representative, librarian, historian, quartermaster, chaplain aide, instructor, den chief, webmaster, or Leave No Trace trainer.
   • Venturing crew/ship. President, vice president, secretary, treasurer, quartermaster, historian, den chief, guide, boatswain, boatswain's mate, yeoman, purser, storekeeper, webmaster, or Leave No Trace trainer.
5. While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project must benefit an organization other than Boy Scouting.) A project proposal must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your unit leader and unit committee, and the council or district before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, BSA publication No. 512-927, in meeting this requirement. (To learn more about the Eagle Scout service project, see the Guide to Advancement, topics 9.0.2.0 through 9.0.2.15.)
6. Take part in a unit leader conference.
7. Successfully complete an Eagle Scout board of review. In preparation for your board of review, prepare and attach to your Eagle Scout Rank Application a statement of your ambitions and life purpose and a listing of positions held in your religious institution, school, camp, community, or other organizations, during which you demonstrated leadership skills. Include honors and awards received during this service. (This requirement may be met after age 18; see below.)

This is on top of earning all the other rank advancements. i.e. earning Tenderfoot, 2nd Class, 1st Class, Star, and Life scouts, each ones requirements require a significant amount of work.  Even after one completes the Eagle Scout project, one goes before the District review board (people you don't know) and has a fairly lengthy interview that can go for 20+ minutes.  They test skill on knots, projects, life-skills, situational awareness etc.

 

Those who have never been seriously involved in scouts can think "well why is it such a big deal"; they don't do recognition for women like this, etc.  It is such a big deal b/c it requires a level of effort across a good span of time that is unheard of anywhere else for young men.  It is no coincidence that a high percentage of the businessmen and leaders in the United States are Eagle Scouters (a higher percentage as compared to normal population). For a young man, coming out of high-school/college if an employer sees "Eagle Scout" on the application, they immediately know they are getting a higher quality candidate.

 

The above is just not the case with YW Medallions.  I certainly believe that if the YW medallion was the female equivalent of the Eagle Scout it would be celebrated at the level of an Eagle Scout . . . but its not the equivalent.

 

In my family, in addition to the ceremony each of the boys when they completed received a very nice hand-crafted homemade plaque.  The girls had other rewards for their accomplishments.  Each is different and consequently were treated differently.

 

While the method of celebration for your sons achievement is completely up to you; please recognize that his achievement is a big deal and as someone else said like a graduation.

Edited January 30, 2015 by yjacket

[The Folk Prophet]

I happen to think that we short sheet our YW, YW recognition's are only mentioned in passing and are not given their due. It is not small thing to accomplish what your daughter has done.

 

Then we wonder why they want the priesthood...hmmm

 

This has nothing to do with why they want the priesthood. How can it be? Getting your eagle scout has nothing whatsoever to do with the priesthood.

[Just_A_Guy]

I happen to think that we short sheet our YW, YW recognition's are only mentioned in passing and are not given their due. It is not small thing to accomplish what your daughter has done.

 

Then we wonder why they want the priesthood...hmmm

 

For the sake of clarifying my prior post:  I'm not saying we shouldn't implement a similar program for young women that is just as rigorous as--and the completion of which, therefore, merits just as much public accolades as--the Eagle Scout program.  I'm just saying that, as of now, such a program doesn't exist. 

 

The 1915 program, I think, was closer to the mark, at least in terms of the amount of work required (be sure to flip to the back to look at the "structural cells")--but good luck trying to bring that one (or anything like it) back in this era of third-wave feminism.  The depressing truth is that a vocal segment of nominal Mormons will fight tooth-and-nail against any program that is designed to reinforce the Church's teachings on family and gender roles to the rising generation.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Vort]

100 years old, and that program puts to shame most of the expectations we as a society put on our children, which seem limited largely to "don't molest anyone while playing video games".

[The Folk Prophet]

For the sake of clarifying my prior post:  I'm not saying we shouldn't implement a similar program for young women that is just as rigorous as--and the completion of which, therefore, merits just as much public accolades as--the Eagle Scout program.  I'm just saying that, as of now, such a program doesn't exist. 

 

And, I might add, implementing such a program for YW would (obviously, I mean, come on) not require giving the priesthood to them.

[EarlJibbs]

I happen to think that we short sheet our YW, YW recognition's are only mentioned in passing and are not given their due. It is not small thing to accomplish what your daughter has done.

 

Then we wonder why they want the priesthood...hmmm

 

An Eagle is not awarded by the church and from what we read in this thread the parents are the ones that make it big or small. The church doesn't parade any ordinance or achievement that is made around for everyone to see. They keep it reverent, at least from what I have witnessed. 

 

If one feels that the YW recognition doesn't publicly display what your daughter has achieved then the parents can feel free to make a spectacle about it and invite the entire ward over after church. 

 

My son is getting baptized in about a month. The service is planned by me as a parent. The church will announce it during Sunday meetings and that is it. The rest of helping my son know what a great thing he is doing and celebrating is up to me. 

 

I have never had a church throw a party for anything priesthood related. 

 

I am actually grateful for this thread however. With a daughter soon to go into YW I have some things to think about to make sure that our family recognizes her accomplishments.  

[yjacket]

 

The 1915 program, I think, was closer to the mark, at least in terms of the amount of work required (be sure to flip to the back to look at the "structural cells")--but good luck trying to bring that one (or anything like it) back in this era of third-wave feminism.  The depressing truth is that a vocal segment of nominal Mormons will fight tooth-and-nail against any program that is designed to reinforce the Church's teachings on family and gender roles to the rising generation.

 

Wow that is pretty intense . . .I can see however that for 1915 a lot of those things would be common for the time period.  Still, I might have to think about augmenting my teaching with this.

[Guest]

For the sake of clarifying my prior post: I'm not saying we shouldn't implement a similar program for young women that is just as rigorous as--and the completion of which, therefore, merits just as much public accolades as--the Eagle Scout program. I'm just saying that, as of now, such a program doesn't exist.

The 1915 program, I think, was closer to the mark, at least in terms of the amount of work required (be sure to flip to the back to look at the "structural cells")--but good luck trying to bring that one (or anything like it) back in this era of third-wave feminism. The depressing truth is that a vocal segment of nominal Mormons will fight tooth-and-nail against any program that is designed to reinforce the Church's teachings on family and gender roles to the rising generation.

I scanned through the Beehive handbook and I tell you... My mom wrote it.

[Crypto]

Something that i've noticed is that the young womens awards ceremony, they don't invite the brethren.(at least in my ward) I think that would be a BIG step in helping recognize the accomplishments of the young women.

 

The other thing is that Eagle scouts are well recognized outside the church, you'll have trouble competing with that regardless of what you do.

 

In my ward we have a hard enough time getting people to show up to an Eagle court of honor, let alone a regular one. So at least where i'm at it's a problem on both sides. Encouraging members of both genders to participate in recognizing youth accomplishments would be nice.

[Palerider]

I have seen some units in my stake with plaques for the YW who earn the YW Medallion and another plaque for the YM who earn Eagle.

They should both be recognized for their efforts. I sit on our local Eagle Board of Review and for the past year I have been impressed with all the Projects that have been presented. Many of them looked challenging and lots of hard work. Every now and then we get one who almost leaves in tears. It's not because we don't approve his project...it's because he shoukd not have been meeting with us yet. Not all paper work etc was in order.

[kapikui]

Well my wife and I are Eleven-Year-Old scout leaders and she earned her Young Women's Medallion.  Here's her Response

 

"As someone who has seen both sides of the spectrum in question, I feel I can reasonably accurately answer the question of emphasis on each presentation.  I must clarify that I earned my medallion under the old program but I have taken a good look at the new program and my mother is currently a YW leader in her ward.

 

To earn an Eagle Scout rank, a boy must complete no less than 13 hours in preparatory service projects such as First Class, Star, and Life rank required projects and the 8 hours of required service for the Citizenship in the Community merit badge.  A boy is required to spend no less than 20 nights camping for the camping merit badge.  He must attend scout camp or lots of troop overnighters in order to meet this requirement.

 

He must earn a total of at least 21 merit badges, several of which are clearly defined.  He must learn first aid, emergency preparedness, cooking, citizenship, consciousness for his environment, camping skills, physical fitness, personal management and finance skills, and career-orientated skills.  All of these merit badges require numerous hours of individual effort.  Also required is a great deal of leadership practical experience as a patrol member with specific responsibilities.

 

The final requirement is the Eagle project requiring lots of man hours to complete.  While there is no specific minimum number of hours on the project, a good value to shoot for is about 100 man hours.  This figure, at least, gives a reasonable idea of the required size and scope of the project guidelines.

 

Under the old YW program, I had to complete at least 2 'value experiences' in each of the 7 YW values per year for the first 4 years.  Several of these experiences took 10 minutes or less to complete.  The final 2 years I was required to complete 2 'value projects' a year of my own design requiring no less than 20 hours each.

 

The new program is far different.  Much like the requirements for First Class or a merit badge, there are checklists of required activities and optional activities to be completed rather than choosing a couple of quick 'experiences' right before your birthday.  Also, there is a 'value project' to be completed for each of the now 8 values of your own choosing requiring a minimum of 10 hours to complete (virtue specifies what the project is to be).  This award is no longer dictated by what year you are in YW.  Many of these requirements may still be completed in less than 10 minutes.

 

The requirements in time and effort for the Eagle Scout and the YW Medallion are vastly different.  The Eagle Scout requires a great deal more time and effort on the part of the boy than the medallion requires of the girl.  As such, the Eagle Scout receives much more attention."