how can we tell good from evil


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 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

 

It seems to me that sometimes people condense the idea expressed in these verses to something like if its good, its from God, and if its bad its from the devil and that’s how we can tell if something is good or bad. My understanding of verses 12, 16 and 17 is that Moroni is saying that we can know that something is of God if that something persuades us to do good and believe in Christ. Put another way, Moroni is saying that if something is good, and persuades us to believe in Christ, we may thereby know that that something, whatever it is, is of God. Many people seem to accept that this scripture provides us with a way of telling whether or not something is good, or whether it is of God. I’ve always had trouble with seeing how this scripture provides us with a way of telling whether or not something is good or bad. I’ll try to illustrate why with the scenarios below.

 

An atheist is meeting with LDS, Baptist and Buddhist missionaries. On the basis of what he hears and studies from the three sets of missionaries, he decides to become a Buddhist. Is this a good thing? Living a Buddhist life helps him to be a better person and surely that is good. But it does not lead him to believe in or serve God or Christ, so that might be bad. Then he goes back to the LDS and Baptist missionaries and he decides to become a Baptist. So now he believes in God, but in choosing the Baptists, he has chosen against the true God, and has chosen a false, Trinitarian concept of God. Maybe its good that he has now chosen to believe in a form of god, but maybe its bad because in choosing the Baptists he has turned away from a true understanding of God.

 

How do we evaluate the scenario where someone does a small bad thing for the greater good, for example, an intelligence agent who corrupts a government employee of an enemy country in order to gain information that will lead to the lives of hundreds of soldiers being saved?

 

If I render aid to a car crash victim and stop the bleeding, but in doing so move his body in the wrong way and thereby break his neck, is that good or bad?

 

When a person practicing a modern day form of priestcraft persuades people to believe in Christ that he might have glory of men because of the number of souls he has brought unto Christ, or because he covets the increase in his personal wealth resulting from the offerings of his followers, has he done a good thing in persuading people to believe in Christ?

 

If I am the doctor in prison who performs a lethal injection thereby killing a man, but making the rest of society safer by removing a mad mass murderer, is that good or bad? And if the injection is done by a vigilante, without the sanction of the State, does the same act then become bad? Because if so, it is the laws of the State that determines whether the act is good or bad, and the goodness or badness of the act is in no way dependent on Moroni 7:12.

 

If a rich man gives a dollar to a beggar but retain the $99 that might for him be just be loose change, has he done good by giving, or bad by withholding?

 

To what extent do motives need to be taken into account when determining the goodness or badness of an act? And if we do decide to take motives into account, how often do people act with more than one motive, or with only one motive at one moment, but over time, continuing in the same act, with a different motive at a later moment? How then would we judge the goodness or badness of their act? Moroni 7:6-9 does not seem to be helpful in answering this question because it seems to be based on the assumption that people, when performing an act, only ever act with the same motivation and doesn’t seem to take into account the common scenario of mixed motivations.

 

And if there is any truth in the idea that one of Satan’s tools is to mix 95% good with 5% bad, does that 95% of good then become bad if it helps in furthering the Devil’s work?

 

And if doing something good leads us to a sense of complacency, ie, all is well in Zion, and we are no longer motivated to do something better because we are already doing something good, does that good thing, by de-incentivising us to do better, become less good, or not good?

 

The above types of scenarios lead me to some uncertainty about how helpful Moroni’s counsel in verses 16 and 17 might be when trying to decide whether something is good or bad. His counsel to rely on the Spirit of Christ is certainly good counsel for those who always have the Spirit to be with them and who always seeks its guidance, and always follow that guidance, but I believe that for most of us, that is something we are still working on. So how can we reliably tell good from bad and how helpful is Moroni 7: 5 – 17 when trying to answer this question? It seems to me that life is more complex with far more shades of ever-shifting grey than the approach suggested by Moroni.

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If a rich man gives a dollar to a beggar but retain the $99 that might for him be just be loose change, has he done good by giving, or bad by withholding?

 

 

 

 

Maybe you should admit to him having done something good. For a millionaire it might be an unbelievable overcoming or concious effort to give only one dollar if he has to expect no yield for it. 

 

And see it this way:  by the fact that he doesn't give $ 100 to the beggar he maybe preserves that poor man to buy some whiskey. So he's maybe done good by giving $ 1 as well as he's done good by withholding $ 99, and therefore he's done good even two times only by a single action. Very efficient.  :D

Edited by JimmiGerman
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We mortals sure are experts at muddying the water.  We insist on stirring up the black and white until there are so many varying shades of grey.  Ultimately, it is Christ who knows all and who is the perfect judge.  We have to do the best we can with the knowledge we have—realizing that we don’t know everything the way that God does.  We rely on the Spirit, let time reveal what it will, and sometimes have to simply say “let God judge between me and thee.”  We, and everyone else, will be judged on the knowledge we have and what we do with that knowledge as well as the thoughts and intents of our heart.

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To start let me just say that Mormon is trying to teach us how to do good continually. How to be good. He is not primarily concerned with teaching us how to judge others, but rather, how to judge ourselves and how to progress.

 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
 
It seems to me that sometimes people condense the idea expressed in these verses to something like if its good, its from God, and if its bad its from the devil and that’s how we can tell if something is good or bad. My understanding of verses 12, 16 and 17 is that Moroni is saying that we can know that something is of God if that something persuades us to do good and believe in Christ. Put another way, Moroni is saying that if something is good, and persuades us to believe in Christ, we may thereby know that that something, whatever it is, is of God. Many people seem to accept that this scripture provides us with a way of telling whether or not something is good, or whether it is of God. I’ve always had trouble with seeing how this scripture provides us with a way of telling whether or not something is good or bad. I’ll try to illustrate why with the scenarios below.
 
An atheist is meeting with LDS, Baptist and Buddhist missionaries...
 
How do we evaluate the scenario where someone does a small bad thing for the greater good, for example, an intelligence agent who corrupts a government employee of an enemy country in order to gain information that will lead to the lives of hundreds of soldiers being saved?
 
If I render aid to a car crash victim and stop the bleeding, but in doing so move his body in the wrong way and thereby break his neck, is that good or bad?
 
When a person practicing a modern day form of priestcraft ...
 
If I am the doctor in prison who performs a lethal injection...
 
If a rich man gives a dollar to a beggar but retain the $99 that might for him be just be loose change, has he done good by giving, or bad by withholding?

Moroni is teaching an important truth. God hears the sincere desires of our hearts, not precisely our actions or words, unless such actions and words accord with our real desires. In all of your above examples you are focusing on actions not the heart. The actions do not matter. It is the desire of the heart which is the key.

What if a person becomes a Buddhist? I see no inherent problem in that. If he was sincerely searching for truth and found something there, then it was good. You give the example of lethal injection. What was the reason for the lethal injection? Would God persuade such a thing? Probably not. But if for some reason he did, and that person acted accordingly, then it is right. As evidence consider Nephi cutting off the head of Laban. 
 

To what extent do motives need to be taken into account when determining the goodness or badness of an act? And if we do decide to take motives into account, how often do people act with more than one motive, or with only one motive at one moment, but over time, continuing in the same act, with a different motive at a later moment? How then would we judge the goodness or badness of their act? Moroni 7:6-9 does not seem to be helpful in answering this question because it seems to be based on the assumption that people, when performing an act, only ever act with the same motivation and doesn’t seem to take into account the common scenario of mixed motivations.
 
And if there is any truth in the idea that one of Satan’s tools is to mix 95% good with 5% bad, does that 95% of good then become bad if it helps in furthering the Devil’s work?
 
And if doing something good leads us to a sense of complacency, ie, all is well in Zion, and we are no longer motivated to do something better because we are already doing something good, does that good thing, by de-incentivising us to do better, become less good, or not good?

Motive is everything, results are not important. God will effect and mold the results to fit his needs. As the song says, "Do what is right let the consequence follow".
 
Mormon tells us over and over again that Satan does not use mixed motives, "For after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one". He does not inspire someone to do a little good but mostly bad to cause confusion. No, he inspires bad. People mix motives. In as much as they mix motives a part is inspired of God and a part is inspired of the devil. Therefore the way to judge is clear, lay hold upon everything that persuades you to do good, for it is of God!
 

The above types of scenarios lead me to some uncertainty about how helpful Moroni’s counsel in verses 16 and 17 might be when trying to decide whether something is good or bad. His counsel to rely on the Spirit of Christ is certainly good counsel for those who always have the Spirit to be with them and who always seeks its guidance, and always follow that guidance, but I believe that for most of us, that is something we are still working on. So how can we reliably tell good from bad and how helpful is Moroni 7: 5 – 17 when trying to answer this question? It seems to me that life is more complex with far more shades of ever-shifting grey than the approach suggested by Moroni.

If you can't tell the difference between the spirit of the Lord and that of evil then you need to progress further and learn to hear the Lord's voice. Mormon is speaking to those who have learned how to hear. This can be seen in verse three, "Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peacable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven". If they had not known the spirit they could not have entered into his rest. If you have not entered into his rest then you still have work to do before you can use all the tools Mormon provides.

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Good vs. bad. Good fruit vs. evil fruit...What Moroni and all the prophets mean by these terms goes back to the heart of the matter. What Christ wants when he's talking about good fruit is redeemed souls. Christ defined redemption to the brother of Jared:

 

 

Ether 3:11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

 

 12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie..

 13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

 14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

 

Because the bro of Jared's trial by faith had brought him to this point to converse with the Lord through the veil and because he believed Jesus Christ, he could no longer be kept from within the veil. Therefore he received the testimony of Jesus. It is the Lord's work and glory to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39). To become a "son" or a "daughter" of Jesus Christ in this manner as defined by our Savior IS to become good fruit. Christ has born fruit in this way. And as we read further in chapter three, the brother of Jared no longer had faith because his faith had blossomed into the fruit of the "knowledge" of God, or as we read in v. 19: "he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.."

 

This is what Isaiah (53:10) talked about and what Abinadi expounded to King Noah:

 

 

Mosiah 15:10 And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?

 11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God.

 

Thus we become "good fruit." We have received a ton of council and admonition from our Savior (beatitudes), and from all the prophets and apostles on how to be good disciples of Jesus Christ. We are to be meek, impart of our substance to the poor, serve our fellow man, etc, etc. That's all part of the equation, but it's all part of perfecting ourselves, or rather our faith unto knowledge. To "know" the Lord is a covenant relationship. That is the goal. That is what being "good fruit" means. And how do we know if we are doing it right? Nephi gave us the example and the pattern. He told us exactly how in 2 Nephi chapters 31 and 32, but I'll only quote a few verses to sum it up:

 

 

2 Nephi 32:1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way. But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts?

 

 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.

 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

 

We either walk the same walk as those who finished the walk or we continue remain in ignorance and darkness. 

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An atheist is meeting with LDS, Baptist and Buddhist missionaries.

 

This sounds like the beginning of a joke. Let's make one up:

 

An atheist is meeing with LDS, Baptist, and Buddhist missionaries. He gets up to make himself a hot dog and asks the missionaries if they'd like one, too.

 

The Baptist missionary says, "The hot dog is like the Trinity. It's made of beef, pork, and turkey, but it's all one hot dog."

 

The LDS missionary says, "The hot dog is like our mortal lives. It's made of flesh. We dress it up with fancy condiments, but the real goodness is inside. And if we look at it in cross-section, we see it's one eternal round." (His companion says, "No thanks, I'm fasting.")

 

The Buddhist missionary says, "Yes, thank you. Make me one with everything."

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It seems to me that life is more complex with far more shades of ever-shifting grey than the approach suggested by Moroni.

 

I agree totally.  But what conclusions can you draw from this observation?  That good and evil are simply delusions of the human mind?  I wouldn't conclude that at all.

 

The teachings of Jesus make is clear that the intentions of the human heart are the key to deciding whether something is good or evil.  I would say that good and evil are attributes of human choices, not of any specific outcomes or of any particular arrangement of how the chips land in the scenarios your mention.

 

Oh, and nice joke, Vort.  I've heard many strange explanations of the Trinity, but comparing it to a hot dog is quite innovative.  Bravo.  If I might extend it, the Baptist missionaries might add, "Just eat it and don't ask where the meat came from."

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Who calls good evil? Who calls evil good? When we want to know what is good, can we rely on a testimony from God? He  that created all things in heaven and earth, all things visible and invisible, and all that comes forth from them, has already called all of this good. But we have a hard time seeing how all of this is good. Sadly, when we judge another person, we have called evil good. 

1Co 4:5  Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. 
What I will judge is how I react or respond when I am spitefully used. I, like Adam, have all living things in front of me. God has brought them to me to see what I will call them. And what I call them, that is the name thereof. 
I'm not a very good namer, yet I am to be one. I can murder someone in my heart.....I can render someone fatherless by a belief....
Or I can, in my office of namer, elect to refrain from naming. I can wait on the Lord to show me how to be better at it.
Do we believe that God made all things?
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How can we tell good from evil?

 

What Mormon says is true.

 

Ultimately the answer to the question of HOW is "mortality". We will learn to tell the good from the evil as we experience mortality and all that mortality entails. God knows this. He told us that we are in a probationary state. We are in a state of training. We are in school.

 

I heard a good analogy recently that may help. When you are in training to become a doctor or whatever profession, the trainers, your teachers, your professors, will expect you to make mistakes. In fact, that is what schooling is for. It is so that you can learn your trade in an environment where nobody permanently gets hurt or where any damage that is done can be completely fixed and made right.

 

Mortality is that. Understand that you are here to learn the good from the evil. You've been given things to help you figure that out but if all it took were just words then the pre-mortal council is all that it would have taken to make us Gods. But, we must pass through mortality and need to learn from experience, trusting that Jesus Christ did indeed come to earth to make it possible that we do not have to pay the full price of our mistakes when we choose evil over good, if we repent. There is nothing that can happen in this life that cannot be completely fixed and made right. We need to see life for what it is. We are here to learn. Christ is merciful and kind and loves us and knows that we are but children learning to become like God.

 

Have faith in Jesus Christ, have hope in His glorious gospel, and be diligent and never give up then by-and-by we will gain understanding and gain godly attributes and wisdom and we will know the good from the evil.

 

So, let me condense what I have said:

 

Question: How can we tell the good from the evil?

 

1. Know that mortality is the school that will teach you good from evil

2. Have faith in Jesus Christ

3. Have hope in the promised outcome of this school

4. Patiently go through mortality and be amazed as God teaches you and shows you how to be good

 

-Finrock

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Moroni is teaching an important truth. God hears the sincere desires of our hearts, not precisely our actions or words, unless such actions and words accord with our real desires. In all of your above examples you are focusing on actions not the heart. The actions do not matter. It is the desire of the heart which is the key.

 

I think your emphasis on the unimportance of actions might be overstated. Moroni tells us to in verse 13

 to "do good continually; wherefore, everything which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him." The italicised words are all action words and doing these things is good. He tells us in verse 17 that the failure to do these things is evil. I suggest that the actions listed here do matter and are important, and these are probably not the only actions that are important.

 

 

What if a person becomes a Buddhist? I see no inherent problem in that. If he was sincerely searching for truth and found something there, then it was good. You give the example of lethal injection. What was the reason for the lethal injection? Would God persuade such a thing? Probably not. But if for some reason he did, and that person acted accordingly, then it is right. As evidence consider Nephi cutting off the head of Laban.

 

The problem with becoming a Buddhist is that a belief in, and acceptance and practice of Buddhist teachings may well lead one to turn away from Christ, and as Moroni said in verse 17 whatsoever thing persuadeth men to ………. believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil. 

 

And is it right if the State demands it of its officially appointed executioner? Or if an individual decides for himself that such an action is necessary? And if the State has required the killing, do the motives of the killer no longer matter?

 

Mormon tells us over and over again that Satan does not use mixed motives, "For after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one". He does not inspire someone to do a little good but mostly bad to cause confusion. No, he inspires bad. People mix motives. In as much as they mix motives a part is inspired of God and a part is inspired of the devil. Therefore the way to judge is clear, lay hold upon everything that persuades you to do good, for it is of God!

 

I think it may be unwise to suggest that there are limitations on the strategies and tools that Satan will use to further his purposes. I believe that he will do anything and everything in his power to bring about an outcome that suits his purposes. This would include encouraging a small amount of good in order to bring about a larger bad. If I give $50 to a homeless man, and am motivated do so out of concern for his well-being, that might be seen as a good thing, but if, as a result of giving that $50, I can no longer pay my own rent and my family and I are thrown out onto the street. Notwithstanding my stupidity in giving away something I could not afford to give, in this scenario, a small act of good has produced a greater evil of making my family homeless.

 

If you can't tell the difference between the spirit of the Lord and that of evil then you need to progress further and learn to hear the Lord's voice. Mormon is speaking to those who have learned how to hear. This can be seen in verse three, "Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peacable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven". If they had not known the spirit they could not have entered into his rest. If you have not entered into his rest then you still have work to do before you can use all the tools Mormon provides.

 

I think that all of us have hope that one day we will enter into the rest of the Lord. I think that the only ones who might have a sufficient hope are those whose calling and election has been made sure. None of us here have yet entered into his rest and all of us here still have work to do, and hopefully the use of all of Mormon’s tools is not limited to those have entered into His rest.

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I think your emphasis on the unimportance of actions might be overstated. Moroni tells us to in verse 13 to "do good continually; wherefore, everything which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him." The italicised words are all action words and doing these things is good. He tells us in verse 17 that the failure to do these things is evil. I suggest that the actions listed here do matter and are important, and these are probably not the only actions that are important.

I want you to understand that the important point is a persons intent, not precisely what he does. Mormon is trying to get us to understand that our motivation is what matters, for he says, "And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such". I'm afraid you might say the opposite. That a person who is praying and attending the LDS church is righteous. But the scriptures teach us that is not always the case, "And in the fifty and first year of the reign of the judges there was peace also, save it were the pride which began to enter into the church -not into the church of God, but into the hearts of the people who professed to belong to the church of God-" (Hel 3:33)

  

The problem with becoming a Buddhist is that a belief in, and acceptance and practice of Buddhist teachings may well lead one to turn away from Christ, and as Moroni said in verse 17 whatsoever thing persuadeth men to ………. believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil. 

 

And is it right if the State demands it of its officially appointed executioner? Or if an individual decides for himself that such an action is necessary? And if the State has required the killing, do the motives of the killer no longer matter?

And yet becoming Buddhist might be the step that finally leads the seeker to Christ. See, by actions alone it is difficult to tell what is inspired of God and what is of the devil. But you, the individual, can know right from wrong, as you know darkness from light.

 

Further, we cannot judge based on the worlds standards or what they demand. This does not mean that we need follow some vigilante justice. The Lord almost always asks his followers to submit to the laws of the land. But in the end, as Joseph said, "Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof until long after the events transpire" (The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, p 507-509).

 

I think it may be unwise to suggest that there are limitations on the strategies and tools that Satan will use to further his purposes. I believe that he will do anything and everything in his power to bring about an outcome that suits his purposes. This would include encouraging a small amount of good in order to bring about a larger bad. If I give $50 to a homeless man, and am motivated do so out of concern for his well-being, that might be seen as a good thing, but if, as a result of giving that $50, I can no longer pay my own rent and my family and I are thrown out onto the street. Notwithstanding my stupidity in giving away something I could not afford to give, in this scenario, a small act of good has produced a greater evil of making my family homeless.

I have not suggested how Satan works, Mormon has, "for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth not man to do good, no, not one". Do not create confusion by trying to suppose the devil prompts people to do good. It simply is not the case. 

 

Regarding the homeless man, you propose to determine good and evil by temporary results. Perhaps such a man has lessons that need to be learned. Perhaps the Lord is trying to teach the person how God cares for him and his family. It may be that these people are thrown out into the street but then some kind person sees them and takes the family in. Ultimately, you do not know.

 

Then what should you do? Do as Mormon suggests, get, and follow, the spirit of the Lord. Then all your actions will work for your good. The Lord will be on your right hand and your left hand and will bear you up as on eagles wings. 

 

I think that all of us have hope that one day we will enter into the rest of the Lord. I think that the only ones who might have a sufficient hope are those whose calling and election has been made sure. None of us here have yet entered into his rest and all of us here still have work to do, and hopefully the use of all of Mormon’s tools is not limited to those have entered into His rest.

And yet Mormon says that the people had obtained sufficient hope to enter the rest of the the Lord, "from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven." Moses sought to sanctify his people that they might enter his rest while in the wilderness (see D&C 84:24). Why then do you seek to limit who has or can enter into the rest of the Lord, or who might obtain promises from him? I say that even you can obtain these blessings, here and now, not in some far flung future. 

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 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

 

It seems to me that sometimes people condense the idea expressed in these verses to something like if its good, its from God, and if its bad its from the devil and that’s how we can tell if something is good or bad. My understanding of verses 12, 16 and 17 is that Moroni is saying that we can know that something is of God if that something persuades us to do good and believe in Christ. Put another way, Moroni is saying that if something is good, and persuades us to believe in Christ, we may thereby know that that something, whatever it is, is of God. Many people seem to accept that this scripture provides us with a way of telling whether or not something is good, or whether it is of God. I’ve always had trouble with seeing how this scripture provides us with a way of telling whether or not something is good or bad. I’ll try to illustrate why with the scenarios below.

 

An atheist is meeting with LDS, Baptist and Buddhist missionaries. On the basis of what he hears and studies from the three sets of missionaries, he decides to become a Buddhist. Is this a good thing? Living a Buddhist life helps him to be a better person and surely that is good. But it does not lead him to believe in or serve God or Christ, so that might be bad. Then he goes back to the LDS and Baptist missionaries and he decides to become a Baptist. So now he believes in God, but in choosing the Baptists, he has chosen against the true God, and has chosen a false, Trinitarian concept of God. Maybe its good that he has now chosen to believe in a form of god, but maybe its bad because in choosing the Baptists he has turned away from a true understanding of God.

 

How do we evaluate the scenario where someone does a small bad thing for the greater good, for example, an intelligence agent who corrupts a government employee of an enemy country in order to gain information that will lead to the lives of hundreds of soldiers being saved?

 

If I render aid to a car crash victim and stop the bleeding, but in doing so move his body in the wrong way and thereby break his neck, is that good or bad?

 

When a person practicing a modern day form of priestcraft persuades people to believe in Christ that he might have glory of men because of the number of souls he has brought unto Christ, or because he covets the increase in his personal wealth resulting from the offerings of his followers, has he done a good thing in persuading people to believe in Christ?

 

If I am the doctor in prison who performs a lethal injection thereby killing a man, but making the rest of society safer by removing a mad mass murderer, is that good or bad? And if the injection is done by a vigilante, without the sanction of the State, does the same act then become bad? Because if so, it is the laws of the State that determines whether the act is good or bad, and the goodness or badness of the act is in no way dependent on Moroni 7:12.

 

If a rich man gives a dollar to a beggar but retain the $99 that might for him be just be loose change, has he done good by giving, or bad by withholding?

 

To what extent do motives need to be taken into account when determining the goodness or badness of an act? And if we do decide to take motives into account, how often do people act with more than one motive, or with only one motive at one moment, but over time, continuing in the same act, with a different motive at a later moment? How then would we judge the goodness or badness of their act? Moroni 7:6-9 does not seem to be helpful in answering this question because it seems to be based on the assumption that people, when performing an act, only ever act with the same motivation and doesn’t seem to take into account the common scenario of mixed motivations.

 

And if there is any truth in the idea that one of Satan’s tools is to mix 95% good with 5% bad, does that 95% of good then become bad if it helps in furthering the Devil’s work?

 

And if doing something good leads us to a sense of complacency, ie, all is well in Zion, and we are no longer motivated to do something better because we are already doing something good, does that good thing, by de-incentivising us to do better, become less good, or not good?

 

The above types of scenarios lead me to some uncertainty about how helpful Moroni’s counsel in verses 16 and 17 might be when trying to decide whether something is good or bad. His counsel to rely on the Spirit of Christ is certainly good counsel for those who always have the Spirit to be with them and who always seeks its guidance, and always follow that guidance, but I believe that for most of us, that is something we are still working on. So how can we reliably tell good from bad and how helpful is Moroni 7: 5 – 17 when trying to answer this question? It seems to me that life is more complex with far more shades of ever-shifting grey than the approach suggested by Moroni.

I lke this rule of thumb from from galatians 5:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I agree totally.  But what conclusions can you draw from this observation?  That good and evil are simply delusions of the human mind?  I wouldn't conclude that at all.

 

The teachings of Jesus make is clear that the intentions of the human heart are the key to deciding whether something is good or evil.  I would say that good and evil are attributes of human choices, not of any specific outcomes or of any particular arrangement of how the chips land in the scenarios your mention.

 

 

 

 

I want you to understand that the important point is a persons intent, not precisely what he does. Mormon is trying to get us to understand that our motivation is what matters, for he says, "And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such". 

 

This post might be dead by now but I was thinking about it a little more this morning, particularly the idea that intention is important in determining whether something is good or bad. I'm not sure how well that idea fits with the religious radical who is convinced that blowing up those of other religions is all for the greater glory of God. Sometimes, such killer are absolutely convinced that killing the non-believers is the right thing to do. Do their sincerely held "good" intentions justify their killings?

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Through my personal studies I have always felt these words were for us to know good from evil, and by knowing good from evil, and by choosing the good we become more Godlike.  We begin to be "one" with God.

 

If these words do not highlight what is "good" then why the statement, "that ye may know the good from the evil...that ye may know with a perfect knowledge" (Moroni 7:15).  

 

The majority of the examples provided require another God given attribute, wisdom.  We are commanded to be wise, yet harmless as doves. I love the words of Jacob, "O be wise, what can I say more."  The homeless example is an experience of "wisdom" not of "good" or "evil" which the Lord has already answered when he declared through Mosiah, "I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give" (Mosiah 4: 24).  In this scenario "good" and "evil" are irrelevant because the choice is between two goods, and within the realm of two goods Jacob words "O be wise...," and it would be wise for the father to pay his debts and with what he has left to help those who are in need.

 

Other examples incorporate other attributes, mercy and justice.  Capital punishment of serial killers appears, at least to me, within the realm of being just.  

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There was an anecdote shared by Sister Shari Dew where she related how she came to discern good from evil.  She was appointed by the Church to attend a UN conference on the family.  She expressed frustration that the meetings were dominated by feminists, progressives, homosexual activists, and others who seemed to be purposefully trying to redefine and undermine the traditional family.  She sought to connect with allies who would be supportive of the Church (and the Lord's) purposes.  She said she be became frustrated because it was difficult to tell who the good ones were and who were the evil ones.  She prayed hard for guidance and suddenly clarity came. The evil ones were the mean ones.

 

She began to notice, after that prompting, that the people who were actively working against God's way were almost uniformly unpleasant, argumentative, scornful, derisive, and even hateful against those who were on the Lord's side of the issues.  They were animated by pride and had contempt for others.  With that understanding, she was more readily able to connect with people who wanted to do the right thing.

 

Almost universally, those who are under the devil's influence will become angry when the following subjects emerge: Jesus Christ, his Church, priesthood keys, and the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, among others.  I have seen seemingly nice Christians turn flat out mean-spirited when those topics come up.  The reason?  Satan can't abide them.  If a person has yielded his heart in any way to the Adversary, he will show up to oppose those things.  They transform just like those "agents" in "The Matrix" in an instant.  It's a remarkable thing to see.  It happens frequently on the Internet.

 

I was once visiting a Christian forum and they were having a debate about baptism.  I gave a solution from the scriptures that they found novel and satisfying--until they realized I was LDS.  Then the discussion turned in to an anti-Mormon bash.  Never mind that the LDS view settled their issue to their satisfaction.  When they learned it was derived from LDS doctrine, Satan's spirit took hold and all the bigotry and intolerance just spilled out.  One minute, they were nice, pleasant denominational Christians and the next they were raving, hatemongers.  What changed?  Priesthood authority emerged and Satan had to oppose it.  It happens all the time.

 

So how do we figure out which ones are the evil ones?  We bear witness of the truth and stand by to see who rails against it.

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This post might be dead by now but I was thinking about it a little more this morning, particularly the idea that intention is important in determining whether something is good or bad. I'm not sure how well that idea fits with the religious radical who is convinced that blowing up those of other religions is all for the greater glory of God. Sometimes, such killer are absolutely convinced that killing the non-believers is the right thing to do. Do their sincerely held "good" intentions justify their killings?

Again, Mormon is speaking to those who are already "peaceable followers of Christ" so his instructions are not directly applicable to someone who wants to kill another person. Such a person does not know the Lord's voice, despite the pale of religion. In fact, he has been deluded for so long that he has convinced himself that Satan's voice is the Lord's voice.

 

Now let me speak in general. People who will not hear the Lord's voice must start at the beginning. They must be given the law of carnal commandments which consists of rules and strict instructions. They must face external consequences and punishment for their wrong actions. They struggle because they can find no peace and are in "the gall of bitterness". This will continue until they learn to hear and follow the Lord's voice. If they do not learn in this life then they will face consequences in the next.

 

In order to progress, at some point they must come to understand and heed the inner voice. Once they do, they have begun to attain a higher level. As Nephi said, "wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Chris because of our faith" (2 Ne 25:25). With the death of the external law they can start to follow Mormon's council in Moroni 7.  

Edited by james12
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