Does Christ know the exact time when He will return?


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Mark 13: 32

 

 32 ¶But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

 33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

 34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

 35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

 36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

 37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

 

Matt 24:36

 

 

 36 ¶But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

D&C 49:7

 

 

 I, the Lord God, have spoken it; but the hour and the day no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor shall they know until he comes. 

 

The Joseph Smith Matthew renders the verse as thus

 

40 But of that day, and hour, no one knoweth; no, not the angels of God in heaven, but my Father only.

A strictly literal rendering of these verses is that only the Father knows. There is room to allow for Christ to know, if in the context he is using the title of the father while addressing us. (which he appears to do throughout much of the old testament.

Edited by Crypto
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I know that we've always learned that no one knows the time of His return but the father. But does Christ know when he will return?

No...he could not unless the Father tells him. But what I believe is that the Father will tell him when it is time, but that time is based on when the world has ripened in sin long enough. In short, I do not think there is a set time, but rather a point where Christ can no longer tarry.
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Consider also, that many, like the bro of Jared have been shown all things from beginning to end. One may not with certainty predict when one will finish reading a book, but the pages have been written. Signs have been given. If one can read the signs as you could a fig tree casting its figs, one would know how close we are. One would know what comes next.

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It sounds to me as if, at least at the time the scripture was given, that he didn't even know himself.  Now since time (at least in our perception) is rather linear, that statement is only true until something happens to change it.  Certainly once it happens, we'll all know the exact hour.

 

Some time before Christ returns, he will have to be (perhaps at this point has been) informed of the exact time.  Then perhaps the angels, then perhaps the prophets, then through the prophets, the saints. 

 

At least that's how I suspect such things would go, as there would need to be specific preparations made.  As to the lead time each group would need, I couldn't say for certain. It is thus possible (though far from certain) that some of those groups have at this point been informed. 

 

Since I've heard nothing from the first presidency, I can say with a fair certainty that it is not time to inform the saints yet.  As to whether or not any of the rest have been informed (or even for sure if they will be) would be absolute speculation.

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It sounds to me as if, at least at the time the scripture was given, that he didn't even know himself.  Now since time (at least in our perception) is rather linear, that statement is only true until something happens to change it.  Certainly once it happens, we'll all know the exact hour.

 

Some time before Christ returns, he will have to be (perhaps at this point has been) informed of the exact time.  Then perhaps the angels, then perhaps the prophets, then through the prophets, the saints. 

While this very well may be true for Christ, There is additional scripture that indicate the second coming will be sudden, like as to a thief in the night. A thief isn't going to let you know when they are going to break in. These scriptures were written for the believers, and while we may receive warnings and see the signs that it is drawing near, I don't think our knowledge of the time will get much more solid than that. If that is how you understand informed to be, such as being warned of the signs then I agree with you.

For reference I refer to here:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/day-of-the-lord?lang=eng

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How can we believe that the great Jehovah is our all-powerful omniscient God and yet think that He does not know the time of His return? That's a very strange idea to me.

 

Doesn't the LDS position hold that, fundamentally, there's not really a difference between us and Christ? In other words, wouldn't he be every bit as in the dark about, well, everything during mortal life as we are. I mean, don't get me wrong, he'd have certainly been way better than us at figuring things out through observation and prayer, but the proverbial veil still would have been in place.

 

What he knew before his mortal life began or after his death and resurrection is purely speculation, but it would seem he was left at least a little lacking in the omniscience front during his mortal life.

 

As a side note, Trinitarian theology would likely ascribe the ignorance to Christ's humanity. Basically, there's this thing called the "communication of idioms." If we say Christ is ______, we could be referring to either his humanity or his divinity, but not necessarily both.

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Doesn't the LDS position hold that, fundamentally, there's not really a difference between us and Christ? In other words, wouldn't he be every bit as in the dark about, well, everything during mortal life as we are.

 

Definitely not. Fundamentally, Christ was and is a God. He is the creator of the universe. He is the Father and the Son. He is the Great Jehovah. He is the only begotten of the Father. Fundamentally, we are none of these things.

 

What he knew before his mortal life began or after his death and resurrection is purely speculation, but it would seem he was left at least a little lacking in the omniscience front during his mortal life.

 

We hold that Christ did have to learn and grow in mortality though. But the question was not whether Christ knew the time of His return, but whether Christ knows the time of His return. Decidedly different question.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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Definitely not. Fundamentally, Christ was and is a God. He is the creator of the universe. He is the Father and the Son. He is the Great Jehovah. He is the only begotten of the Father. Fundamentally, we are none of these things.

 

 

 

We hold that Christ did have to learn and grow in mortality though. But the question was not whether Christ knew the time of His return, but whether Christ knows the time of His return. Decidedly different question.

 

Right, but to my understanding participation in the Godhead in LDS theology constitutes a unity of will, meaning his "divinity" wouldn't strictly be a matter of potency but intent. Likewise, while Christ participated in the creation of the world, so did Michael/Adam alongside any number of other "gods", and all those others seem to have had the same mortal limitations intact. He seems to have undergone the same basic pattern as other humans: pre-existence, mortal life, death and resurrection, so it makes sense (at least to me) that the same limitations would have been in effect.

 

I believe I covered both the "knew" and "knows" questions. He likely didn't know during his mortal life, and after his mortal life what was/was not revealed to him hasn't been revealed to us and is therefore purely speculative (though my gut instinct would be that he knows).

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Well, Christ was set apart from the rest of humankind because He was literally the Son of God--a title which no other human can claim.  I think Mormons would submit that this meant that Christ progressed faster, and further, in mortality than any other human.  I don't think the LDS Church would presume to speculate--at least, officially--on how much Jesus did or didn't know by the end of His life. 

 

But, yes--He did progress.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Claire,

 

I would say that your basic understanding is in place but you're interpolating things that are not valid.

 

in the Godhead in LDS theology constitutes a unity of will, meaning his "divinity" wouldn't strictly be a matter of potency but intent.

 

I'm not sure where you picked this up, but the concept of Christ's potency being in any way limited is incorrect. (Other than, perhaps for a time in his mortal youth.) And the "unity of will" idea, although true, is incomplete. God the Father and God the Son are one in more than just will. They are one in power, majesty, glory, knowledge, love, etc., etc...

 

Likewise, while Christ participated in the creation of the world, so did Michael/Adam alongside any number of other "gods"

 

Stating that Christ "participated" in the creation of the world is also misleading. Christ is the creator. Not just some participant. Adam and the other "gods" were participants.

 

and all those others seem to have had the same mortal limitations intact. He seems to have undergone the same basic pattern as other humans: pre-existence, mortal life, death and resurrection, so it makes sense (at least to me) that the same limitations would have been in effect.

 

He underwent the same basic pattern, yes. But with one HUGE difference. He is the Son of God -- literally, in the flesh, begotten by Him. This, if nothing else, changes the nature of His "limitations". But for the sake of understanding, I'll acquiesce the point and say, sure -- same limitations. But by the power of perfect faith and perfect obedience, any of us would have access to perfect knowledge and power. So even if it were true that he was just the same as all of us (which He was not...but for the sake of discussion...) then He still was perfect in His faith and obedience, and therefore had access to perfect knowledge and power. That being said, He had access to all power and knowledge by virtue of His heritage as the Son of God, and by the fact that He was, literally, the creator of the world -- hence the winds and the waves obeyed Him.

 

He likely didn't know during his mortal life,

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say "likely". But perhaps.

 

and after his mortal life what was/was not revealed to him hasn't been revealed to us and is therefore purely speculative

 

Christ's omniscience has been revealed to us.

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Several years ago I became interested in ancient calendar while studying the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Anciently calendars were very important and involved much more than just the date.  Ancient calendars were used to determine who would officiate as a priest in the temple.  For example the date Zechariah was to be in the holy of the temple was determined by the ancient Hebrew calendar.   The significance of the birth of John the Baptist as well as the Messiah was coded into the ancient Hebrew calendar.  So are many other things that come from the ancient Hebrew calendar - such as the six gates to heaven through which the sun passes twice each year.  Though there were solar events tied to the calendar there were also lunar events as well. 

 

One of the most important events of the ancient Hebrew calendar was the beginning of the New Year.  This was also part of determining passover and other critical religious holy celebrations.  The first day of the new year was always a Sunday.  It was believed that this day had to correspond with the first or beginning of creation.  But the first day was determined the the first Sunday following the first new moon following the vernal equinox.   This method is still employed today to determine both passover and Easter.  Easter is interesting because it draws upon a number of ancient pagan calendars.  But the Hebrew calendar required that two expert witnesses must testify before a judge that they had observed the new moon as well as the vernal equinox.  Once the witnesses were made fires would be lit on hill sides on a Saturday night to signal or give the sign that the next day (Sunday) would begin the new year.  Until the sign (fire on a hill) was given the celebrations of the new year - that included a special feast - could not occur. 

 

There were problem when storms would move in at the end of the calendar year and obstruct the view of the moon and sun preventing the observations necessary.  So there was a saying concerning the Hebrew calendar when the question was asked when the feast of the new year would be.  The answer was in essence similar to a current saying of heaven only knows.  This is not that the sighs could not be observed but just that it was believed that G-d was in control of such thing and that G-d would bring such things about according to his plan - which may not always be understood by mankind.   Now as I was saying when storm brought clouds that would hide the sun and moon there was another saying that no man knew the hour or the day that the sign would be given - not even that angles of heaven but G-d only.  But this saying is translated literally in scripture even though Jesus was quoting a familiar ancient saying.  This is because the ancient experts were smart enough to figure out well in advance when the new year should be - but still could not testify until the proper events were observed.

 

It is my understand from studying ancient calendars that the true prophets of G-d as well as many of his saints will know and understand when the time draws near.  I believe they will know the hour and the day from understanding the prophesies and the signs that always testify of G-d and his workings.  That it is a misinterpretation of an ancient familiar saying that has confused many in not realizing that G-d does indeed reveal his works and plans to man in advance.  But sadly man is blinded by many things in the world that confuse the things of G-d.

 

I have said before that I am convinced that many will be surprised by how soon Jesus will come again.  As saints of the last days we should understand that the time is drawing near.  Not because I am saying these things but because of the many signs that are being fulfilled.   I am very sure that I personally will know the hour and the day at least 3 days before he come again.  And my saying 3 days should be a most interesting clue to anyone that reads the prophesies concerning the last days before Jesus appears again and shows himself as the king of his covenant peoples.

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On the point that Claire asks, I would read Doctrine and Covenants 93.

 

11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

 12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

 13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

 14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

 

See also Luke 2:52

 

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

Edited by bytebear
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On the point that Claire asks, I would read Doctrine and Covenants 93.

 

11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

 12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

 13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

 14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

 

See also Luke 2:52

 

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

 

Think you should have included vs. 15 an 16 too:

 

15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.

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  • 3 months later...

"Does Christ himself know when he will come? This question comes up occasionally, perhaps because of what is stated in the Gospel of Mark: 'Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father' (Mark 13:31-32; emphasis added). The phrase 'neither the Son' is not found in Matthew nor Luke. Christ knows all things; he possesses the fulness of the glory and power of the Father (see D&C 93:16-17). Surely he knows when he will return. If he did not know the exact day or time of his return in glory when the Olivet Prophecy was uttered, then certainly after his resurrection and glorification he came to know. It is worth noting that the Joseph Smith Translation of this verse omits the disputed phrase." (Robert L. Millet, Selected Writings of Robert L. Millet: Gospel Scholars Series [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 2000], 556

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"Does Christ himself know when he will come? This question comes up occasionally, perhaps because of what is stated in the Gospel of Mark: 'Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father' (Mark 13:31-32; emphasis added). The phrase 'neither the Son' is not found in Matthew nor Luke. Christ knows all things; he possesses the fulness of the glory and power of the Father (see D&C 93:16-17). Surely he knows when he will return. If he did not know the exact day or time of his return in glory when the Olivet Prophecy was uttered, then certainly after his resurrection and glorification he came to know. It is worth noting that the Joseph Smith Translation of this verse omits the disputed phrase." (Robert L. Millet, Selected Writings of Robert L. Millet: Gospel Scholars Series [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 2000], 556

 

Saint Peter - If you read my post (#19) on this thread you may have a more complete understanding.  The error is introduced by translating text and not understanding customs to which the text make reference.

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