Prayer


Traveler
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Many years ago I had a discussion with a Muslim friend about prayers.  I would suggest that if anyone wishes to have new insights to prayer – in particular thoughts on prayer preparation that you talk to a devout Muslim.

 

This thread is intended to turn thoughts to prayer, why we as individuals pray, why we pray and what we think we are accomplishing (if anything through our prayers).  I have crafted some questions on prayer to in part inspire conversations and perhaps more questions concerning prayer:

 

1.  Do you pray mostly to ask G-d for things or to report about things to G-d.  For example if you are asked to give a talk in church do you ask G-d for inspiration for your talk or do you report to G-d your plan of putting together your talk?

 

2.  Do you inform G-d about things you would like to learn or accomplish?  For example if you plan on making an investment do you explain in prayer the investment to G-d and tell him the return you are expecting?  And then ask for his input?

 

3. Do you include in your prayers unresolved issues (like an argument with a spouse – or someone on the internet – perhaps even someone on this forum) and ask for his help or do you outline the issue and tell G-d your plan to resolve the issue – trying to determine if he approves or if you should rethink your plan?

 

4.  Do you tell G-d in your prayers what you are trying to accomplish through your prayers?  Do you ever let him know what you are thinking are feeling about answers you have received to prayers?

 

5. Do you ask G-d for revelation specific to things you are studying – religious doctrines – how about secular ideas (politics, social or science) that you are dealing with or discovering?

 

6.  How many regularly scheduled prayers are you involved with on a daily basis?

 

7.  How often do you have unscheduled prayers?  How often are unscheduled prayers involved with fasting?

 

8.  Are most of your combinations of fasting and prayer limited to fast Sunday?

 

9.  Are your prayers a ritual or from the heart?

 

10. What do you do – if anything - to prepare for prayers?

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Many years ago I had a discussion with a Muslim friend about prayers.  I would suggest that if anyone wishes to have new insights to prayer – in particular thoughts on prayer preparation that you talk to a devout Muslim.

 

This thread is intended to turn thoughts to prayer, why we as individuals pray, why we pray and what we think we are accomplishing (if anything through our prayers).  I have crafted some questions on prayer to in part inspire conversations and perhaps more questions concerning prayer:

 

1.  Do you pray mostly to ask G-d for things or to report about things to G-d.  For example if you are asked to give a talk in church do you ask G-d for inspiration for your talk or do you report to G-d your plan of putting together your talk?

 

2.  Do you inform G-d about things you would like to learn or accomplish?  For example if you plan on making an investment do you explain in prayer the investment to G-d and tell him the return you are expecting?  And then ask for his input?

 

3. Do you include in your prayers unresolved issues (like an argument with a spouse – or someone on the internet – perhaps even someone on this forum) and ask for his help or do you outline the issue and tell G-d your plan to resolve the issue – trying to determine if he approves or if you should rethink your plan?

 

4.  Do you tell G-d in your prayers what you are trying to accomplish through your prayers?  Do you ever let him know what you are thinking are feeling about answers you have received to prayers?

 

5. Do you ask G-d for revelation specific to things you are studying – religious doctrines – how about secular ideas (politics, social or science) that you are dealing with or discovering?

 

6.  How many regularly scheduled prayers are you involved with on a daily basis?

 

7.  How often do you have unscheduled prayers?  How often are unscheduled prayers involved with fasting?

 

8.  Are most of your combinations of fasting and prayer limited to fast Sunday?

 

9.  Are your prayers a ritual or from the heart?

 

10. What do you do – if anything - to prepare for prayers?

 

I had hoped to spark thoughts and responses to how we view and understand prayer both to improve my own prayers as well as others.  What am I missing - have I been too argumentative and thus offended so that such a sacred thing not be brought into the light?  Or is there noting to improve upon?  I did not expect that there would be no responses??????  Be it from other LDS or of other faiths?????? 

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I guess it's not controversial enough. :D

 

The only thought I had in reading through the questions is that we need to be mindful of the fact that God already knows our thoughts and hearts. But that doesn't necessarily change the fact that we should tell Him our thoughts and feelings, so...

 

I would also suggest that your list of questions is lacking in the gratitude suggestions department.

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I will take a stab at your questions and this may spark some interest

 

1.  Do you pray mostly to ask G-d for things or to report about things to G-d.  For example if you are asked to give a talk in church do you ask G-d for inspiration for your talk or do you report to G-d your plan of putting together your talk?

For me it is not  a reporting mechanism, he know's what I'm up to. In your example, I will ask for inspiration as I am writing my talk, and in the edits I do to it. 

 

2.  Do you inform G-d about things you would like to learn or accomplish?  For example if you plan on making an investment do you explain in prayer the investment to G-d and tell him the return you are expecting?  And then ask for his input?

No, he knows the desires of my heart. I asked for the winning lottery numbers.....that didn't work out. I think God takes the high ground when it comes to the financial aspects of our lives....people aren't successful because God wills it, They are successful because the work their butts off

 

3. Do you include in your prayers unresolved issues (like an argument with a spouse – or someone on the internet – perhaps even someone on this forum) and ask for his help or do you outline the issue and tell G-d your plan to resolve the issue – trying to determine if he approves or if you should rethink your plan?

 

No reporting, I will outline a plan and seek confirmation on it, This is a tricky thing though and one I struggle with. Prayer helps us feel better about our lives and brings us closer to God. As a result when we pray we feel good. When we pray looking for an answer we feel good...so is that the answer to our prayers? or do we feel good because we are praying? I think that I can tell the difference....how do others interpret it I don't know. 

 

 

4.  Do you tell G-d in your prayers what you are trying to accomplish through your prayers?  Do you ever let him know what you are thinking are feeling about answers you have received to prayers?

Nope

 

5. Do you ask G-d for revelation specific to things you are studying – religious doctrines – how about secular ideas (politics, social or science) that you are dealing with or discovering?

Not really I think that he lets us come to our own conclusions about doctrines and such. If we are following out leaders, studying the scriptures we are probably on a path that will lead us to him.

 

6.  How many regularly scheduled prayers are you involved with on a daily basis?

3 typically

 

7.  How often do you have unscheduled prayers?  How often are unscheduled prayers involved with fasting?

I pray on an as need basis....If I need help, guidance, protection, I ask for it

 

8.  Are most of your combinations of fasting and prayer limited to fast Sunday?

Fasting and prayer combinations....yes typically surrounding fast Sunday but not exclusively 

 

9.  Are your prayers a ritual or from the heart?

 

The correct answer is from the heart, but we all fall into the pitfall of blasting through the blessing of the food etc....

 

10. What do you do – if anything - to prepare for prayers?

nothing....I pray when I need to and I pray when I don't need to. If I had to prepare to communicate with God I'd never be ready.

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I had hoped to spark thoughts and responses to how we view and understand prayer both to improve my own prayers as well as others.  What am I missing - have I been too argumentative and thus offended so that such a sacred thing not be brought into the light?  Or is there noting to improve upon?  I did not expect that there would be no responses??????  Be it from other LDS or of other faiths?????? 

These are personal questions. With only the thinly veiled anonymity of this list -- let's face it, I haven't tried very hard to disguise who I am, given that I have put up my photograph and often referred to my specific home location -- many of us aren't comfortable with talking about deeply personal issues, especially when we might feel that our efforts are insufficient.

 

Nevertheless, the questions seem useful and good for discussion, so I'll give it a go at answering them.

 

Many years ago I had a discussion with a Muslim friend about prayers.  I would suggest that if anyone wishes to have new insights to prayer – in particular thoughts on prayer preparation that you talk to a devout Muslim.

I have often mentioned my Muslim friend and lab-mate in my grad school years, one of the best men I have ever known, so I'm prone to agree. But even my friend did not pretend that all or most Muslims were as devout as he was. From my observations, Muslims are human beings, and on average are likely no more devout than Christians or anyone else. The existence of ISIS and general turmoil in the "Muslim" countries of the Middle East and north Africa seem to bear out this observation.

 

This thread is intended to turn thoughts to prayer, why we as individuals pray, why we pray and what we think we are accomplishing (if anything through our prayers).  I have crafted some questions on prayer to in part inspire conversations and perhaps more questions concerning prayer:

 

1.  Do you pray mostly to ask G-d for things or to report about things to G-d.  For example if you are asked to give a talk in church do you ask G-d for inspiration for your talk or do you report to G-d your plan of putting together your talk?

I'd have to say that I probably tend more toward asking God for favors, though I consciously try to discuss things with him and tell him my plans.

 

2.  Do you inform G-d about things you would like to learn or accomplish?  For example if you plan on making an investment do you explain in prayer the investment to G-d and tell him the return you are expecting?  And then ask for his input?

Never, at least as far as asking for financial windfalls goes. Such a thing strikes me as contrary to the Spirit. Perhaps that is one reason why I am not financially successful.

 

In general, I do occasionally tell God about my plans and then ask him for specific blessings in accomplishing those things. Usually, it will be less specific and more a general petition for help.

 

3. Do you include in your prayers unresolved issues (like an argument with a spouse – or someone on the internet – perhaps even someone on this forum) and ask for his help or do you outline the issue and tell G-d your plan to resolve the issue – trying to determine if he approves or if you should rethink your plan?

Occasionally. More likely to be ongoing personal issues where I feel deficient.

 

4.  Do you tell G-d in your prayers what you are trying to accomplish through your prayers?  Do you ever let him know what you are thinking are feeling about answers you have received to prayers?

I have tried this, with limited success. In this area, I am sure that I could learn a lesson from the importunate widow.

 

5. Do you ask G-d for revelation specific to things you are studying – religious doctrines – how about secular ideas (politics, social or science) that you are dealing with or discovering?

Rarely. I depend on God revealing to me what I need to know when I need to know it. Since by definition I don't know what I don't know, I find it difficult to request specific knowledge from God. I will occasionally try to discuss things topically with my Father, but I spend very little prayer time in intellectual pursuits. I try to be more sensing and feeling. I am more or less an INTJ, where the T means Thinking, which I score pretty lopsided to the T side in. So I try to use my prayer time to develop my Sensing (or Feeling, or whatever it's called) side. I have found this to be very valuable for me personally, because my Sensing/Feeling side, when I actually listen to it, is frankly a lot smarter and more reliable than my Thinking side.

 

6.  How many regularly scheduled prayers are you involved with on a daily basis?

Not easy to answer, but I'd say probably seven. My prayers are as follows:

  • Three prayers to open scripture study (family, spousal, and individual)
  • Three prayers to close scripture study
  • Three evening prayers
  • Meal prayers as needed

Conspicuously absent are morning prayers. This is an area of personal failure for me as a father; I have never established an early-morning prayer ritual, what with various schedules and such. When I do my personal scripture study in the morning, I use my prayer to close scripture study as my opportunity for morning prayer. Similarly, we normally do our family scripture study before our evening prayer, and so fold the closing prayer for scripture study in with our family prayer. My wife and I do the same thing with our spousal scripture study and our spousal evening prayer.

 

So that makes six prayers, one to open each scripture study, and one for a morning or evening prayer at the end of scripture study. I also (try to) eat dinner at home, where we ask a blessing on the meal beforehand. So not including special cases like FHE or having the missionaries over, that would be about seven regular "scheduled" prayers per day.

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Apparently, you can't use unlimited quotes, so I have to break this up into two postings.

 

7.  How often do you have unscheduled prayers?  How often are unscheduled prayers involved with fasting?

I don't know. Not many, especially if you mean go-into-my-closet-and-kneel-down type of prayers. I try to pray while fasting, as well, but honestly, I often don't do more than start and end my fast with a prayer (and I don't always start it with a prayer).

 

8.  Are most of your combinations of fasting and prayer limited to fast Sunday?

Yes. On average, I fast less than once a month outside of fast Sunday. When I do fast outside of fast Sunday, I am more likely to pray during the fast. But overall, the majority of my fasting and prayer occurs in conjunction with fast Sunday.

 

9.  Are your prayers a ritual or from the heart?

The form of my prayers definitely seems to follow a pattern, and I often find myself reciting a prayer as a rote set of statements. But I endeavor to use my prayer time to speak with my Father and not simply talk at him. Fatigue is by far the biggest enemy afflicting me in this area; when I'm tired, I just want to go to sleep.

 

10. What do you do – if anything - to prepare for prayers?

Nothing, usually. I kneel down most of the time.

Edited by Vort
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As to the personal thing, I agree. Sharing specifics about how we pray is...personal. It also feels like it runs the risk or either pulling judgment down upon us unfairly by others (for example, I now know that because Vort fails in his morning prayers that I can never trust him again...;)) or coming across as holier-than-thou.  But the questions are, without a doubt, useful to consider, and the discussion of how we can improve our prayer practices is definitely valuable.

 

I would suggest, perhaps, that the lack of preparing for prayers may be one of the reasons that some of us fail to get as much out of them as we might otherwise.

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While attending the L-rd's University I was taught that whenever G-d asks something of us that at the completion of the task he ask us to return to him and report.  Many have suggested that reporting to G-d is not about his need for information because he already know such things.  I would suggest that his asking his servants to report is not about his methods of gathering information but is a method he uses to teach us and help us understand what he asks of us.  It is intended to help us become one with him - not because the effect of reporting would change anything with him but because such efforts does at least two things for us.  It gives courage and determination to accomplish knowing that we will report.  And second it causes us to ponder and understand what we are really doing and why we are doing it.

 

Let me give an example.  Lets say one reads and ponders in the scriptures that G-d ask us to remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.  Then in their prayers they review this law and principle of righteousness with G-d and describe in detail what they plan for the next Sabbath to keep it holy.  Then at the conclusion of their Sabbath the report to G-d what they encountered, learned and accomplished for such Sabbath.  Over many Sabbaths that they continue this process - they may encounter, among other things, an "ox in the mire".  I would suggest that as they read scriptures concerning the Sabbath that many things will be taught to them by revelation that they would not otherwise be given.  They will learn that such "reporting" is of great value to them and not so much to inform G-d of what was.

 

If one reads the LDS Bible Dictionary on the subject of prayer that is published with our "Standard Works" they will learn that there are "things" withheld in heaven that are only obtained through prayer.  One great lesson that I learned from my Father is that happiness is not (as the wicked song suggest) having all your dreams or desires come true but rather learning to appreciate, enjoy, cherish, honor and love above all else those things G-d provides for us.  Even if it is an ox in the mire on the Sabbath.

Edited by Traveler
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  • 2 weeks later...

That is a good starting point for me.

I have learned that happiness is not an end point, a place to go to, but a by-product of accomplishing goals. 

I have come to pray as a form of thanks and gratitude for another day to live, which is probably a result of reaching the age I have reached.

Quite a while ago I gave up the ritual prayers, which were a result of my Catholic childhood.

Which comes to my real answer to these questions.

I don't think I know how to pray.

I need help.  I need to learn how.

Does anyone have any suggestion?

dc

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Time for another question:

 

Do the prayers of the righteous have the power to alter the course of events that G-d has planned?

 

I've often pondered about the level of detail that God has included in His plans and I don't know the answer. I suspect that for a given event, there are many ways in which it could turn out without greatly impacting on God's plans. Perhaps in those cases, the way an event will turn out could be influenced by someone's prayers.

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I had hoped to spark thoughts and responses to how we view and understand prayer both to improve my own prayers as well as others.  What am I missing - have I been too argumentative and thus offended so that such a sacred thing not be brought into the light?  Or is there noting to improve upon?  I did not expect that there would be no responses??????  Be it from other LDS or of other faiths?????? 

 

I can relate to how you are feeling Traveler. I thought my post on Isaiah and ISIS in which I raise the possibility that there are similarities between the methods of God and ISIS might have generated more than two responses.

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Time for another question:

 

Do the prayers of the righteous have the power to alter the course of events that G-d has planned?

 

I think there's some room for this. The bible dictionary shares something that resonates with me. There are some blessings which are only obtainable through prayer. That is to say, you aren't really changing God's plan, per se, as God's plan is generally one of obedience and blessing - and these blessings are attached to prayer rather than obedience to other principles (or in connection with other principles).

 

Additionally, I think if a group of righteous people asked (prayed for) God to tarry, He would (as seen in the example of Jesus).

 

One other thought to throw out there on the general topic. I like the doxology of the Lord's prayer ("hallowed be thy name"). I've tried to incorporate it more in my own prayers, but have yet to introduce it in my public (or family) prayers.

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Time for another question:

 

Do the prayers of the righteous have the power to alter the course of events that G-d has planned?

I've always found the scriptures in the Book of Mormon that talk about a group of people being spared because of the righteous or the "prayers of the righteous" (see Alma 10:22-23) very interesting. There's also the instance where the angel visits Alma the younger because of the prayers of his father and perhaps others (Mosiah 27:14). It's obvious that there is some very real power in prayer in these instances, but i don't know if one could argue that it altered God's plans.

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Time for another question:

 

Do the prayers of the righteous have the power to alter the course of events that G-d has planned?

 

Several thoughts on this--

 

We're never going to de-rail God's plans, through prayer or otherwise.  We're also never going to force another person's agency.  But I don't think that God's plans are so rigid that He doesn't take our prayer requests into consideration.  For example, Alma the Younger was visited by an angel due to the prayers of his father and community. 

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I think that Helaman chapters 10 and 11 give the best illustration of the Lord changing His plans in response to prayer. In Helaman 10:15 the Lord gives Nephi the sealing power and tells him that “I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.” A few verses later, in verse 11, the Lord tells Nephi to tell the people “Except ye repent ye shall be smitten, even unto destruction.” The smiting and destruction commences in the form of a war starting at verse 18. At the start of chapter 11, Nephi, through prayer, as the Lord had foretold he would, asks the Lord to replace the war with a famine. So God’s preferred method of smiting the people was a war and Nephi’s preferred method was a famine, but God had already known in advance that that was what Nephi would do. And then, in the middle of chapter 11, Nephi prays again and asks the Lord to end the famine, which He does. Who knows how long the war would have continued for if Nephi had not asked for it to end, and who knows how long the famine would have continued for if Nephi had not asked the Lord to end it. I think its interesting that the Lord stopped the destruction that He forewarned of in favour of a method of destruction that Nephi asked for. Nephi asked for something different from what God was doing, but which was not contrary to His will – it was just a different approach of bringing about the will of God. Both the war and the famine, although quite different in nature, both worked to bring about the same objective.

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