Agency and Sin

[Str8Shooter]

I have had a question about agency for years and am now determined to search for the answer.

It bugs me when people say "we will sin". To me, that means we have no agency to choose to not sin. The difference between "will" and "almost certainly will" is very small, but when looked at with agency in mind, the difference is black and white. One statement has no agency and the other one does.

I feel that it is possible for someone to make it through life without sinning. I feel that it is possible to remain sinless after repenting. Is it likely? No, but I feel the possibility must remain for agency to remain intact.

Now comes the part where I am confused. Many people say "we will sin" or "we will commit sin", including some apostles and prophets. This is completely contrary to how I feel. Do they say "we will sin" because it is simply easier for everyone to understand or is it a factual, literal statement that means we will sin, end of story and I need to change my thinking?

I appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks!

[pam]

I suppose it comes to what is sin exactly? What falls under sin?

 

The only person who has ever lived on this earth who is sinless would be Christ.  I happen to agree that we all sin or will sin.  

[Blackmarch]

I have had a question about agency for years and am now determined to search for the answer.

It bugs me when people say "we will sin". To me, that means we have no agency to choose to not sin. The difference between "will" and "almost certainly will" is very small, but when looked at with agency in mind, the difference is black and white. One statement has no agency and the other one does.

I feel that it is possible for someone to make it through life without sinning. I feel that it is possible to remain sinless after repenting. Is it likely? No, but I feel the possibility must remain for agency to remain intact.

Now comes the part where I am confused. Many people say "we will sin" or "we will commit sin", including some apostles and prophets. This is completely contrary to how I feel. Do they say "we will sin" because it is simply easier for everyone to understand or is it a factual, literal statement that means we will sin, end of story and I need to change my thinking?

I appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks!

Is it possible? yes it is possible. if people are going to become perfect there has to be a point where they cease to sin by accident or purpose.

Generally it's smarter to hedge your bets. Tho and the statement that all will sin happens to be true thus far with the exception of Christ. There will come a day where such is not the case but that is not today nor do i see in the near future. Our selfish desires, dumb choices, pride, and lack of knowledge just about gaurantees that everyone will slip up at least once.

However that does not mean that it's impossoble to achieve a state where one won't sin again while in this life..... but that is extremely difficult, to say the least.

 

[Traveler]

Str8Shooter: First let me give you my background.  I am LDS and I work as an engineer in the field of automation, robotics and artificial intelligence.  I think there are a few factors that you may not be taking into account.  The first is that as we consider agency - I am convinced that we cannot exercise agency or choice without understanding exactly what all the possibilities and outcome is for our choice.  In short if we view this life and existence from the standpoint of beginning at birth and ending at death - there is no logic that can be argued that we are acting with knowledge and intelligence, understanding outcome.  Regardless of how smart you are and cleaver you choices - you will die.

 

Death and sin are inexorably connected.  For justice to exist if we die then we must sin.  With agency and choice the condition and result are as much a part as is the power to choose.  LDS revelation teaches that we exercised agency and choice before coming to mortality.  So in essence much of our mortal experience is reaping the results and condition of our agency and choice before we were born.  In short - you cannot avoid sin because you have already chosen it.  But because in this life we choose sin without complete agency knowing the results - we can repent and be forgiven. 

 

In essence because we live out this life to some degree of not knowing what we are doing - we are not fully exercising our agency and can awake, repent and have a do over.  But we could not be in such a condition without approving through our agency - the fall where the cards are so stacked against us that we would sin and suffer the results of that sin.  This is the choice of the fall.  But we also have a Savior that redeems us from these sins of mortal ignorance.  Regardless of what sin befalls us in mortality we have the ability to realize our sins and repent of them or to keep them.

 

Thus we have full knowledge because of experience of good and evil and can in truth exercise agency knowing sin and death verses goodness and life.  With knowledge of good and evil we can with agency and choice determine to be like G-d or Satan.

[davidstarfall]

It is my understanding that Jesus is the only one that is actually capable of this in mortal life. We all TRY to do it, but we all fall short. "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" But why?  

"And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them."

Weakness in this context referring to our present state of mortality. Being imperfect beings, vulnerable to the temptations of the devil. While we are here on earth, we have the opportunity to learn from our mistakes which we make (which we ALL make, because we aren't Jesus). Is learning from mistakes the only way to learn? No. Jesus learned everything he needed to without making mistakes. But we are not Jesus. But we strive to be like him. Is our attempt futile? No, because through the power of God, the Atonement and the Holy Ghost, we are perpetually cleansing ourselves and journeying toward perfection, which we may eventually be, probably in the afterlife.

I think it is good to set the bar high as you apparently have, but I also think it is important to be understanding of our weakness as well (especially for those of us with depression).

Now... that being said.. the city of Enoch obviously was doing something right. But I don't personally think that it is improper to say that we will sin. But we should keep in mind that we can move beyond sin eventually. Especially once Satan no longer has power over us and we have our perfected bodies.

Edited April 15, 2015 by davidstarfall

[davidstarfall]

I feel that it is possible for someone to make it through life without sinning. I feel that it is possible to remain sinless after repenting. Is it likely? No, but I feel the possibility must remain for agency to remain intact.

We are just as capable of not sinning as we are of not falling over while walking. Is it possible for a baby to stand up and never fall over?.. theoretically yeah. Maybe if you are a super baby who's father is God himself. But chances are you are an imperfect baby that just doesn't quite know how to do that at first. And now you are probably an adult. Are you capable of falling over? Yeah. Especially since you have an imperfect body.

Also, just because it is possible for someone to run a mile in 3 mins and 44 seconds, doesn't mean that you are presently capable of it.

Are these perfect metaphors? No. But I guess what I'm trying to say is, just because something is possible, doesn't mean you are capable of it right now. Maybe eventually. With some help.

[char713]

I think it is an important distinction to remember that that the Savior is perfect - the most perfect person to have ever lived - not just because he committed no sins, but also because he committed no transgressions. I do believe that sinlessness, while not easy or very likely, it is possible. Transgression-lessness(?) is impossible. Even young children who pass away before the age of accountability commit transgressions. 

 

And to quote C.S. Lewis (because that's what I do):

 

"No man knows how bad he is till he has tried very hard to be good. A silly idea is current that good people do not know what temptation means. This is an obvious lie. Only those who try to resist temptation know how strong it is. After all, you find out the strength of the German army by fighting against it, not by giving in. …A man who gives in to temptation after five minutes simply does not know what it would have been like an hour later. That is why bad people, in one sense, know very little about badness. They have lived a sheltered life by always giving in. We never find out the strength of the evil impulse inside us until we try to fight it: and Christ, because He was the only man who never yielded to temptation, is also the only man who knows to the full what temptation means – the only complete realist."

[Finrock]

I have had a question about agency for years and am now determined to search for the answer.

It bugs me when people say "we will sin". To me, that means we have no agency to choose to not sin. The difference between "will" and "almost certainly will" is very small, but when looked at with agency in mind, the difference is black and white. One statement has no agency and the other one does.

I feel that it is possible for someone to make it through life without sinning. I feel that it is possible to remain sinless after repenting. Is it likely? No, but I feel the possibility must remain for agency to remain intact.

Now comes the part where I am confused. Many people say "we will sin" or "we will commit sin", including some apostles and prophets. This is completely contrary to how I feel. Do they say "we will sin" because it is simply easier for everyone to understand or is it a factual, literal statement that means we will sin, end of story and I need to change my thinking?

I appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks!

 

Hi Str8Shooter! Hope you are well. :)

 

2 Nephi 2 reads:

 

 

 

"5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered" (Emphasis added).

 

This plainly teaches us that because of the law given to us by God, we are cut off from God forever. We are born and we live in sin. I want to point out to you that the next part here is very important. Because we are cut off by the law, our redemption does not come in and through the law or because of our actions. "Redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah, who is full of grace and truth".

 

Jesus Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for sin so that the ends of the law may be answered. That means he sacrificed his life so that justice can be fully satisfied "unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit". We will remain sinful and in sin through-out mortality. This is a fact.

 

 

 

8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

 

We will not be saved because we are sinless. We will not make it to the Celestial Kingdom because we finally decided to live a sinless life. It is not by our merits that we are saved, but by the grace of Jesus Christ! We must repent and come to Christ with full purpose of heart and trusting in His works and in His grace to save us and endure to the end!

 

For your question and concern I recommend all of 2 Nephi 2. I believe it address your question completely: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/2?lang=eng

 

-Finrock

Edited April 15, 2015 by Finrock

[skalenfehl]

My short answer: Sinning is knowingly choosing to disobey God (lying, stealing, all manner of ungodliness). Nephi, though he had been redeemed from the fall (brought back into God's presence), "sinned" still, or at least that's how he expressed it (2 Nephi 4:18-19). But once one has been sanctified and justified, receiving the Holy Ghost, going on to perfection, receiving his calling and election, or in other words, receiving the Holy Spirit of Promise, and is privileged to receive the Second Comforter, does so because he has been cleansed ever whit from his iniquities (3 Nephi 8:1). I'll let you ponder the difference between sin and iniquity.

 

Anyway, at this point, being just, one can still trespass, which carries its own connotation. Joseph Smith, like Nephi, though having parted the veil and walked with God, was still susceptible to making wrong/poor choices. Losing the 116 pages is one example. The Lord told Joseph that if he was not wary, he would fall (D&C 3:9). The bottom line is, once the Lord has proven you and through the process I mentioned, the veil no longer exists between you and heaven, having received the promise of everlasting life, unless you literally deny God, your trespasses are forgiven, though not without chastisement and correction. Joseph still made poor choices as he was still human and fallible. 

 

My two cents.

[Anddenex]

I have had a question about agency for years and am now determined to search for the answer.

It bugs me when people say "we will sin". To me, that means we have no agency to choose to not sin. The difference between "will" and "almost certainly will" is very small, but when looked at with agency in mind, the difference is black and white. One statement has no agency and the other one does.

 

 

As I read your post I can most certainly understand where you are drawing your conclusion; however, I don't think either statement removes our agency.  The concept of us being perfect in this life would have been possible for all of us if we, like Christ, loved our Father in heaven more than ourselves.  

 

The statement "we will sin" is a prophecy of outcome.  Prophecies do not remove an individuals agency.  When we are taught "we will sin" I have understood the meaning specifying although we have agency "not to sin" we will sin because of our personal choice -- thus the need for a Savior -- and our Father in heaven knew this.

 

I prefer the latter statement "we almost certainly" will sin, rather than "we will sin."  

 

 

 

 

I feel that it is possible for someone to make it through life without sinning. I feel that it is possible to remain sinless after repenting. Is it likely? No, but I feel the possibility must remain for agency to remain intact.

Now comes the part where I am confused. Many people say "we will sin" or "we will commit sin", including some apostles and prophets. This is completely contrary to how I feel. Do they say "we will sin" because it is simply easier for everyone to understand or is it a factual, literal statement that means we will sin, end of story and I need to change my thinking?

I appreciate your thoughts.

 

I agree, the concept of agency and the spectrum of perfection vs corruption would have me to believe perfection was also in my grasp; however, God knew that when enticed by opposites that I "would" sin, and thus a Savior was provided (Moroni 10: 32-33). The prophecy, God's foreknowledge did not remove my agency, no more so then saying Christ will be our Savior and the only perfect being.  The statement "Christ will atone for our sins" doesn't remove the Lord's agency, otherwise it would lessen his atonement. The fact that he remain pure, perfect, despite being enticed deepens my respect for our Savior.  He chose! Although we are told he "would" atone for our sins.

 

I believe we say "we will sin" as a matter of prophecy, a known fact, that when enticed by virtue or vice that carnal men/women will choose the great and spacious building over the love of God at times.  This doesn't however remove my agency -- it confirms it.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Anddenex

[Str8Shooter]

I really, really appreciate the comments you all have posted. There is a lot of great material so far.

[ether-ore]

I have always been taught that one of the reasons we are here in mortality is not only to gain a body, but to learn how to control it.  This body is after all, very new to us.  There exists a continual conflict between the desires of the body and the needs of the spirit.  The goal is to subject the desires of the body to the will of the spirit.  However, as observation will indicate, the spirit is in many instances subdued and over shadowed by the demands of the carnal.  What do the scriptures say?... to be carnally minded is death and to be spiritually is life eternal.

 

Giving in to the carnal desires contrary to law is sin.  We want things and in giving in to them contrary to the law is what sin is.  A choice is always involved.  Making this choice constitutes the use of agency.  I don't think it is inevitable that we sin in the sense that we have no choice in the matter.  We always have a choice and acting on either obedience to the law or the desires of the flesh is what agency is.

 

As an aside;  Claims by some that they are just being who they are when they do behaviors contrary to God's law are saying that they have capitulated to the desires of the flesh and at that point they are indeed being who they are.  They are being who they have allowed themselves to become as a consequence of acting on their choices.  Actions have a tendency to cement character traits.  The atonement's ability to save such an individual depends on the individual's ability to overcome years and years of repeated behavior through repentance.

[Pa Pa]

I have had a question about agency for years and am now determined to search for the answer.

It bugs me when people say "we will sin". To me, that means we have no agency to choose to not sin. The difference between "will" and "almost certainly will" is very small, but when looked at with agency in mind, the difference is black and white. One statement has no agency and the other one does.

I feel that it is possible for someone to make it through life without sinning. I feel that it is possible to remain sinless after repenting. Is it likely? No, but I feel the possibility must remain for agency to remain intact.

Now comes the part where I am confused. Many people say "we will sin" or "we will commit sin", including some apostles and prophets. This is completely contrary to how I feel. Do they say "we will sin" because it is simply easier for everyone to understand or is it a factual, literal statement that means we will sin, end of story and I need to change my thinking?

I appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks!

Yes it may be possible, but not likely as there are so many sins. Yes we have our will or agency, which makes things difficult. There are 613 sins according to Jewish law, sometimes we get selfish or angry without even meaning too. The important thing is baptism and repentance, thanks to a loving Saviour, and each time we partake of the Sacrament which is as if dipped once again into the waters of baptism making us weekly prepared to enter back into the Kingdom of God and live again with our Heavenly Father. But it is not our will or agency that causes us to sin, but that we are in a fallen state. But God our Father has given us a way back....but without will or agency we could not choose the right, or choose Him or His Son. So that God we "can" choose the best and are not lost.