Is God all-powerful?


Kirkko
 Share

Recommended Posts

If Heavenly Father is all powerful why can't he just forgive the way I do when my kids mess up? They make a mistake, get punished/chastised and we move on; it doesn't require a blood sacrifice for me to do that. Why is God constrained by justice, when He is all powerful? Why does He have rules, when He makes the rules? I know the Fall brought sin and death which keeps us from God, but if it is necessary for us to go through this fallen life, why does God require the Atonement to satisfy justice and allow mercy? Again, why is He constrained? Is it self imposed? Is it the blueprint of earths? I'm just looking for some thoughts on this subject.

Thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you are discussing the philosophical positions on God this can get very complicated very quickly, and often times contradictory.

 

Whether God created, can create exceptions or is subject to Eternal laws isn't so important. God is a God of order, rather than like the human conceived erroneous and capricious pagan gods. This consistency is something that can always be trusted, is faith building, and ultimately good.

A stark contrast would be Satan, his inconsistency and always allowing for exceptions. True Chaos wouldn't be a very pleasant thing.

Whether you believe God is Transcendent, or Immanent can make a big difference as to how you approach this.

Edited by Crypto
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Heavenly Father is all powerful why can't he just forgive the way I do when my kids mess up? They make a mistake, get punished/chastised and we move on; it doesn't require a blood sacrifice for me to do that. Why is God constrained by justice, when He is all powerful? Why does He have rules, when He makes the rules? I know the Fall brought sin and death which keeps us from God, but if it is necessary for us to go through this fallen life, why does God require the Atonement to satisfy justice and allow mercy? Again, why is He constrained? Is it self imposed? Is it the blueprint of earths? I'm just looking for some thoughts on this subject.

Thanks

 

You asked a lot of questions here, let me know if I don't cover anything in my reply.  

 

 

God doesn't make justice, He IS Justice.  Being ever truthful and full of justice is His very nature.  He can't one day decide: "it's ok to hit your sister", because it's not: hitting your sister hurt her and destroys your relationship.  God cannot endorse such behavior because that's simply not who He is.  God is 100% constrained by His righteous nature, else He would not be God.  

 

Now, why God is 100% justice, He is also 100% mercy.  He wants to heal all of our wounds and make it all right.  Which is where the atonement comes in: giving us the opportunity to grow, to heal, to repent, all in Christ.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Moroni 10: 32-33. A parents forgiveness doesn't result in the child becoming pure and without spot.  We simply forgive.  President Boyd K. Packer's talk "The Mediator" is one of the better explanations specifying the importance of our Lord's atonement.  

 

As pertaining to God being constrained it really depends on what one means by the word "constrained."  If I were good, would I do anything evil?  The answer is simple, no, I would not choose or do anything that is evil because I would no longer be good.  So one could describe this as being constrained.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In order for us to trust God He must be trustworthy. That means He must be perfectly fair. That means He must be perfectly just. If he were not perfectly just, he could just as easily condemn us unfairly as save us unfairly. The only way we can absolutely trust in Him with no reservation whatsoever is by His perfect justice. Perfect justice is, contrary to implication, a very, very, very good thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with you Kirkko, I believe that even God is subject to a law of justice. Where the law comes from, and how it is enforced, I do not know, but I suspect it is a universal constant. It is perhaps the same law that enabled God to progress from man to God. Two reasons why I think God is subject to law:

 

1. I cannot think of any other reason why God would require His Beloved Son to endure the agonies that He did unless He was compelled to, in order to satisfy some sort of externally imposed requirement. Surely God would have done all in His power to avoid the suffering His Son went through if there was a way that it could have been avoided. He did not prevent the suffering of His Son, so perhaps it was beyond His power to do so. Somebody, or something, demanded that sacrifice. It's hard to see how it was the voluntary, free-will act of a Father who loved His Son and who could have achieved the same outcome - the atonement - through a less difficult approach. I think that because God was subject to a law of justice the atonement was the only way to satisfy the demands of this law. If there was an easier way, God would have done it. This argument is supported by:

 

 Alma 42:25

  • 25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God wouldcease to be God.

  • Alma 42:13

    13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, Godwould cease to be God.

  • Alma 42:22

    22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God

2. I believe that where God lives could be described as a kingdom, possibly even the Celestial Kingdom. Every kingdom is subject to some kind of law because there cannot be a kingdom without law. It may be that this includes the kingdom where God dwells.

 

36 All kingdoms have a law given;

 37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

 38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would not like a Father who said, "Do as I do, not as I say."  So, why would we imagine God saying such a thing?  He does not ask of us that which He is not willing to extend.  He commands us to love, He loves.  He commands us to love our enemies, He loves his enemies.  He commands justice, he proffers justice.

 

That God is able to demonstrate what he dictates reinforces my belief in his awesome power.  If he had to break his own standards, in the name of being the author of those standards, I might be tempted to think he was little better than most petty dictators.  Since he abides by his own standards, I think him as both powerful and worthy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In making the connections from various scriptures, I've come to understand that God didn't create the laws that He Himself abides.  Joseph Smith tells us that as man is, God once was... etc.  The point is that the laws existed for God when He was a man and His Heavenly Father was abiding the same laws.  If one understands that the word 'God' is not a name but rather, it is a title that can and has been applied to many beings from all eternity, then one can understand that The Laws; the objective moral code,is as eternal as the title of God is.  It was never created.  It always existed just as the title of God has always existed because there was always someone to carry the title.

 

For God to be God, He must abide the Law.  There are comments in scripture that suggest that if God did so and so, He would cease to be God, but that He doesn't cease to be God... Why?  Because He abides the Law.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In making the connections from various scriptures, I've come to understand that God didn't create the laws that He Himself abides.  Joseph Smith tells us that as man is, God once was... etc.  The point is that the laws existed for God when He was a man and His Heavenly Father was abiding the same laws.  If one understands that the word 'God' is not a name but rather, it is a title that can and has been applied to many beings from all eternity, then one can understand that The Laws; the objective moral code,is as eternal as the title of God is.  It was never created.  It always existed just as the title of God has always existed because there was always someone to carry the title.

 

For God to be God, He must abide the Law.  There are comments in scripture that suggest that if God did so and so, He would cease to be God, but that He doesn't cease to be God... Why?  Because He abides the Law.

 

Adding some to this...

 

It's less some imposed law that God must abide by...as if there's some force greater than God, which there is not...but more that the reality of things simply exists. And we're not talking about stuff like gravity, per se, which may or may not be "eternal". If someone lies to you can you trust them? No. Simple, plain, truth. Eternal. If God lies then he is not God because perfect honesty is part of what being God is. So not so much that some external force would come and take away his God-ness, but rather that things are, simply, what they are.

 

That being said, the whole idea of God ceasing to be God if He did certain things is only theoretical, because the other part of being God that makes God God is that He is unchanging.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Heavenly Father is all powerful why can't he just forgive the way I do when my kids mess up? They make a mistake, get punished/chastised and we move on; it doesn't require a blood sacrifice for me to do that. Why is God constrained by justice, when He is all powerful? Why does He have rules, when He makes the rules? I know the Fall brought sin and death which keeps us from God, but if it is necessary for us to go through this fallen life, why does God require the Atonement to satisfy justice and allow mercy? Again, why is He constrained? Is it self imposed? Is it the blueprint of earths? I'm just looking for some thoughts on this subject.

Thanks

He can forgives and does the way we do our children. Although our children lack the same judgements as do most adults. Even though, we cannot live perfect lives and thanks to atonement we don't need to...we only need do our best and try. Man nor woman can not work themselves back into God's presence...it is only because of Grace that we can "try" to receive God's greatest blessings.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Heavenly Father is all powerful why can't he just forgive the way I do when my kids mess up? They make a mistake, get punished/chastised and we move on; it doesn't require a blood sacrifice for me to do that. Why is God constrained by justice, when He is all powerful? Why does He have rules, when He makes the rules? I know the Fall brought sin and death which keeps us from God, but if it is necessary for us to go through this fallen life, why does God require the Atonement to satisfy justice and allow mercy? Again, why is He constrained? Is it self imposed? Is it the blueprint of earths? I'm just looking for some thoughts on this subject.

Thanks

 

Hi Kirkko. I hope you've been well! :)

 

2 Nephi 2 is a good place to get some information on this:

 

"5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever...

 

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away" (Emphasis mine). 

 

-Finrock

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Heavenly Father is all powerful why can't he just forgive the way I do when my kids mess up? They make a mistake, get punished/chastised and we move on; it doesn't require a blood sacrifice for me to do that. Why is God constrained by justice, when He is all powerful?

 

 

1. I cannot think of any other reason why God would require His Beloved Son to endure the agonies that He did unless He was compelled to, in order to satisfy some sort of externally imposed requirement.

 

 

So I guess its safe to say that there are some realities that God must abide by?

In the world of dog ownership... there is this thing called "anthropomorphization" which can be quite harmful to the dogs and is one of the basic things a dog owner needs to avoid.

Anthropomorphism is attribution of human form or other characteristics to anything other than a human being

The quoted statements above is an anthropomorphization of God. It is attributing the limited human vision of eternal life and the limited human understanding of joy to the greatness of God. And it can be quite harmful - no, not to God, but to the human. This kind of thinking could lead to these faith killing statements: "God allowed 3,000+ people to die in the collapse of the twin towers, how can He be God?" or "If God really loved me, he wouldn't have allowed my dad to rape me...", etc. etc.

Jane_Doe hit the nail on the head. God is not constrained by justice nor mercy... he IS justice and he IS mercy. The word "constrained" connotates a reluctance, or something one does that is not quite aligned to one's will. This is not God. What makes God God is not his substance... it is his will - that will which is perfectly Just and perfectly Merciful. It is this will - that which is God - that is the path to joy. And it is his hope for us - giving us perfectly free will - to align our will with that which is God. When our will is perfectly the same as God's will, then we become God.

So, for us to say... God only allowed Christ to die because he didn't have a choice... that makes us not aligned with God's will - because it is God's will that Christ die to bring us to the path to joy. God does not just say - I forgive you - without applying justice because that is not the path to joy. Whatever else he does he does that we may have joy.

Edited by anatess
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would like to address the parenting comparison...

 

Of course a parent can forgive their kids...  But that is different then handing them the keys to the car when they have proven that they can not handle it.

 

After all if your three year old ask for the keys to the car because they really want to drive... Would the wise, kind, and forgiving parent give the keys to the three-year old?  Or would they stop them, tell them no?

 

The scriptures are very clear that God is all powerful,  but the scriptures are also very clear that God is working with material (us) that has lots of flaws and limits.  Thus the limiting factor is not God but Us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Heavenly Father is all powerful why can't he just forgive the way I do when my kids mess up? They make a mistake, get punished/chastised and we move on; it doesn't require a blood sacrifice for me to do that. Why is God constrained by justice, when He is all powerful? Why does He have rules, when He makes the rules? I know the Fall brought sin and death which keeps us from God, but if it is necessary for us to go through this fallen life, why does God require the Atonement to satisfy justice and allow mercy? Again, why is He constrained? Is it self imposed? Is it the blueprint of earths? I'm just looking for some thoughts on this subject.

Thanks

G-d is not all powerful.  Perhaps at one time he did have all power but he has given power to individuals (of man) to choose good or evil.  In essence man has power within themselves to choose.  Since G-d does not have the power to choose good or evil for individuals because the individuals themselves have such power - is proof that G-d does not have all power.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Heavenly Father is all powerful why can't he just forgive the way I do when my kids mess up? They make a mistake, get punished/chastised and we move on; it doesn't require a blood sacrifice for me to do that. Why is God constrained by justice, when He is all powerful? Why does He have rules, when He makes the rules? I know the Fall brought sin and death which keeps us from God, but if it is necessary for us to go through this fallen life, why does God require the Atonement to satisfy justice and allow mercy? Again, why is He constrained? Is it self imposed? Is it the blueprint of earths? I'm just looking for some thoughts on this subject.

Thanks

mercy can't trump justice.in the end he has to award for every law kept and punish for every law broken- every debt must be paid in full. this is why Jesus is so important - he makes it possible so God does not have to exercise justice immediately, and that when he does do it Jesus can take the punishment- if we've done whatever it takes to have Jesus intercede for us.

If god merely blesses one person for no reason, he has to bless all individuals the same, as well as the converse if he dismisses one person from a law then he has to dismiss all from that law and thus he would contradict and negate himself.

As for this life it is necessary for 2 things - 1 getting these physical bodies and learning how to control them, and 2 learning how to be Godly without having to have a taskmaster over us, while in condition of #1.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Jesus made himself a little lower than the angels, but never ceased to be God, then why can't the Father cede free will (agency) to his creation, while retaining ultimate omnipotence? 

 

The reason is because we are talking about mutually exclusive conditions.  If Jesus became lower than the angles he could not, during that interlude, be a G-d greater than angles.  His sacrifice had to be real to be a real sacrifice. Pretending to be lower than the angles is not the same as being lower than the angles.   It is a lie to say something is so when it is not.  Also if the Father indeed grants the power of agency (free will) to any individual then he cannot be an "All Powerful" G-d; because there is power that someone has that he does not.  This does not mean that G-d does not have power but it does mean that we must rely on him for that which we do not have the power ourselves.  It also means that the power he gives us is real and we are under just as much necessity to utilize the power he has granted us as we are under necessity to rely on the power that he has that we do not.

 

This is why I love and understand that we are saved by grace after all we can do.  What we can do is what G-d has granted (commanded) of us to do - including repentance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The reason is because we are talking about mutually exclusive conditions.  If Jesus became lower than the angles he could not, during that interlude, be a G-d greater than angles.  His sacrifice had to be real to be a real sacrifice. Pretending to be lower than the angles is not the same as being lower than the angles.   It is a lie to say something is so when it is not.

This post does not correspond to PC's post because you are talking about Jesus as a member of the Godhead whereas PC is talking about Jesus as a person in the Trinity. Jesus in the Trinity is fully divine and fully human. The two conditions are not mutually exclusive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In order for us to trust God He must be trustworthy. That means He must be perfectly fair. That means He must be perfectly just. If he were not perfectly just, he could just as easily condemn us unfairly as save us unfairly. The only way we can absolutely trust in Him with no reservation whatsoever is by His perfect justice. Perfect justice is, contrary to implication, a very, very, very good thing.

 

Would it still be just for God to set up the Law such that He will forgive on conditions of repentance and faith in Christ? Could He still do this without the middle step of vicarious sacrifice?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would it still be just for God to set up the Law such that He will forgive on conditions of repentance and faith in Christ? Could He still do this without the middle step of vicarious sacrifice?

 

I suspect that if there was a better way to have done it that God would have. Is that not reasonable? Even if man's sense of justice might see it a different way, man, as we should all generally be aware, is relatively quite stupid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This post does not correspond to PC's post because you are talking about Jesus as a member of the Godhead whereas PC is talking about Jesus as a person in the Trinity. Jesus in the Trinity is fully divine and fully human. The two conditions are not mutually exclusive.

 

Then being fully divine is lower than the angles?  I thought we were talking about Jesus being lower than angles.  I would also point out that there is a slight shift in meaning in the terms fully divine and G-d.  In fact I do not understand the difference between that which is divine and fully divine.  Angles of G-d are not fully divine? Or are angles greater than fully divine?  The scriptures never uses such a term as fully divine as opposed to something different than that which is divine. 

 

If we say a term means something then whereever that term is used - it has the specified meaning we gave it.  To say it means something else because you want it to - gives the impression the person using terms for varying meaning really does not know what they are talking about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Then being fully divine is lower than the angles?  I thought we were talking about Jesus being lower than angles.  I would also point out that there is a slight shift in meaning in the terms fully divine and G-d.  In fact I do not understand the difference between that which is divine and fully divine.  Angles of G-d are not fully divine? Or are angles greater than fully divine?  The scriptures never uses such a term as fully divine as opposed to something different than that which is divine. 

 

If we say a term means something then whereever that term is used - it has the specified meaning we gave it.  To say it means something else because you want it to - gives the impression the person using terms for varying meaning really does not know what they are talking about.

No. Fully human is lower than angels. Fully divine is God, of course higher than angels. Fully divine is a pretty standard phrase in Christianity. It's as standard in Christology as the phrase Hypostatic Union.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would it still be just for God to set up the Law such that He will forgive on conditions of repentance and faith in Christ? Could He still do this without the middle step of vicarious sacrifice?

 

There are two parts - justice and mercy.   But mercy cannot rob justice.  In order to be merciful there must be a sacrifice for the sake of justice.  Therefore in order for G-d to be merciful - G-d must redeem or pay for the offense. 

 

This point is the very question of this thread - G-d is not all powerful and must himself conform to the power of justice in order to be just himself and have power over justice so he can exercise the power of mercy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share