Business in Zion


mordorbund
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I recently read Creating a World Without Poverty: Social Business and the Future of Capitalism by Muhammad Yunus (the guy with the micro-loans). He advocates a new order of business called a "social business" who's main features are:

  1. It's service or product is aimed at a social benefit (reducing poverty, affordable nutrition for the undernourished, housing for the homeless, etc).
  2. Investors either a) are the target demographic of their business (poor, homeless, etc) or b) receive only their initial investment back - no dividends or profit.
  3. Operate like a business with profit-building (so the business can continue to operate on it's principal task and not on fund-raising) and fair wages (so it can attract quality workers to pursue its principal task).

So then I got to wondering...

What does a Zion business look like? Brigham Young favored Co-ops in the fall of the United Order (seeing them as a "stepping stone" to get back there one day). A variation on this is some businesses that have profit-sharing. Non-profits exist today to focus on social benefits, but they suffer with sustainability since they rely on steady contributions. This could be remedied if the non-profit was directly tied to the Church or government but it seems that the Church has been spinning off businesses that have a market alternative and the government option is heavily frowned upon by many saints. I have also heard of other businesses (should we coin a term for them?) that basically have 100%+ markup on the product or service so they can donate the same to those that can't afford it. The challenge here is that in a capitalist market the product is either 1) inferior or 2) less-profitable. If the product is inferior it can't really compete. If it is less-profitable, then the competition can reduce their profit and undercut the subsidizers. What other models are there (maybe you're trying in your own business)? What are the pros and cons.

 

Zion will still be surrounded by Babylon on all sides, and may even have some exports into Babylon (if this assumption is incorrect, please correct it), so it will need to be able to compete with Babylon business. How competitive are these businesses?

 

In addition, does the very definition of Zion mean that there aren't luxury products? What would define luxury? You can have Zion handbags, and you can supplant them once we've started manufacturing superior Zion handbags (holds more, and better material), but you don't get a bedazzled handbag (or whatever it is that makes Gucci so special)?

 

Is competition only part of the research phase, when comparing new technologies and processes? Or will there be a Zion Google and a Zion Bing?

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The default business structure in capitalism (and, I submit, in fallen human nature) is management trying to get as much labor for as little compensation as possible; and labor trying to give as little labor for as much compensation as possible. 

 

I like the ideas of profit-sharing, prolonged employee leave, accommodations for family life, etc; but I think these need to be reciprocated by a labor force that puts in a full day's work, doesn't produce shoddy workmanship, and is as willing to suffer financial hardship with the ownership in the hard times as it is willing to take a share of the profits during the good times.  I am, frankly, highly skeptical that any Zion business can remain viable for long if it must continually negotiate with a Babylonian labor force.  Zion capital and Zion labor are interdependent; and in a Zion society both sides understand this symbiotic relationship.

 

As for a consumer market:  I can see the economy becoming sufficiently prosperous that very fine goods are indeed available.  But I think you'd see them being priced according to their actual quality rather than snob-appeal.  I don't think people will care whether the bag is Gucci so much as they'll be interested in the actual quality of the materials and the workmanship.

 

I think competition will be very much part of the economy--but it will be a friendly competition, with an ample safety net for those who are out-competed and decide to try their hand at some other sort of labor.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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I recently read Creating a World Without Poverty: Social Business and the Future of Capitalism by Muhammad Yunus (the guy with the micro-loans). He advocates a new order of business called a "social business" who's main features are:

  1. It's service or product is aimed at a social benefit (reducing poverty, affordable nutrition for the undernourished, housing for the homeless, etc).
  2. Investors either a) are the target demographic of their business (poor, homeless, etc) or b) receive only their initial investment back - no dividends or profit.
  3. Operate like a business with profit-building (so the business can continue to operate on it's principal task and not on fund-raising) and fair wages (so it can attract quality workers to pursue its principal task).

So then I got to wondering...

What does a Zion business look like? Brigham Young favored Co-ops in the fall of the United Order (seeing them as a "stepping stone" to get back there one day). A variation on this is some businesses that have profit-sharing. Non-profits exist today to focus on social benefits, but they suffer with sustainability since they rely on steady contributions. This could be remedied if the non-profit was directly tied to the Church or government but it seems that the Church has been spinning off businesses that have a market alternative and the government option is heavily frowned upon by many saints. I have also heard of other businesses (should we coin a term for them?) that basically have 100%+ markup on the product or service so they can donate the same to those that can't afford it. The challenge here is that in a capitalist market the product is either 1) inferior or 2) less-profitable. If the product is inferior it can't really compete. If it is less-profitable, then the competition can reduce their profit and undercut the subsidizers. What other models are there (maybe you're trying in your own business)? What are the pros and cons.

 

Zion will still be surrounded by Babylon on all sides, and may even have some exports into Babylon (if this assumption is incorrect, please correct it), so it will need to be able to compete with Babylon business. How competitive are these businesses?

 

In addition, does the very definition of Zion mean that there aren't luxury products? What would define luxury? You can have Zion handbags, and you can supplant them once we've started manufacturing superior Zion handbags (holds more, and better material), but you don't get a bedazzled handbag (or whatever it is that makes Gucci so special)?

 

Is competition only part of the research phase, when comparing new technologies and processes? Or will there be a Zion Google and a Zion Bing?

 

Hellow mordorbund. I hope you are well! :)

 

Although there will be an acutal city of Zion it is important to note that:

 

 

 

Please note: Zion is people; Zion is the saints of God; Zion is those who have been baptized; Zion is those who have received the Holy Ghost; Zion is those who keep the commandments; Zion is the righteous; or in other words, as our revelation recites: “This is Zion—the pure in heart” (D&C 97:21).

 

From what I have read and learned from reading the scriptures and listening to prophets is that city of Zion will be the envy of the world. The good, the poor, the downtrodden, etc. will come to Zion because it will be a bastion of all good things. God will be with the inhabitants of Zion and His power will be there. The inhabitants of Zion will be of one Spirit. They will have the Spirit of God and so they will be in constant and direct communion with God. The wicked will fear Zion and dare not come up against it. Zion will be independent and will not need anything from the outside world.

 

 

16 And from that time forth there were wars and bloodshed among them; but the Lord came and dwelt with his people, and they dwelt in righteousness.

17 The fear of the Lord was upon all nations, so great was the glory of the Lord, which was upon his people. And the Lord blessed the land, and they were blessed upon the mountains, and upon the high places, and did flourish.

18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.

 

Something else to think about too:

 

 

 

29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.

30 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing; wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love. And except they should have charity they were nothing. Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.

31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish. (Emphasis added)

 

-Finrock

 

P.S.

I added the name of the person or scripture who gave the quote but it didn't show up so here are my references in case any one is interested:

 

First quote Elder McConkie: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1977/04/come-let-israel-build-zion?lang=eng&query=zion

 

Second Quote Moses 7: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/7.18?lang=eng#17

 

Third Quote 2 Nephi 26: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/26.31?lang=eng#30

Edited by Finrock
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In addition, does the very definition of Zion mean that there aren't luxury products? What would define luxury? 

 

You can have a wagon and some oxen...maybe even horses. But no cars.

 

Really though. This question, imo, is perhaps the most fascinating thing about consideration of the return of communal, United Orders style living.

 

Playstation/Xbox? TVs? Carpet? Motorcycles? Snowmobiles? ATVs? What about iPads? Computers if you don't work on them? Stereos? Musical instruments? Etc. New cars vs used cars? Pets?

 

How does this sort of stuff balance out? Johnny drives a used Corolla but Timmy gets a new Ford Superduty, both covered by the United Order fund -- but neither make a living with their vehicle? So do they both get a Superduty (or equivalent cost wise) or are they both forced to used economy cars?

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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I should share a little more context for this. I've also been thinking about Joseph Smith's revelations and Brigham Young's teachings with regards to Zion. Joseph took so many religious teachings and transformed them from ethereal to tangible. The Bible talks of ministering angels? They're just people, like you and me, who are in the next state of progression. The dead will be judged by the records? Then we should write and ensure they're accurate. Christ will reign personally over the earth? Then we better have a city built with a government He can lead when He gets here. Brigham continued many of these ideas, trying to build a society such that, when Christ came, it was already prepared to receive Him at the head (hence the co-op stepping stone).

 

So I've been thinking about similar things as well. When Christ comes, will I need a different job? If I start free-lancing, what does my business look like such that I won't get a culture-shock at that time?

 

So although I ask specifically about the Zion business when the city is set up, I'm pondering more about what should business look like so we can better build Zion.

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You can have a wagon and some oxen...maybe even horses. But no cars.

 

Really though. This question, imo, is perhaps the most fascinating thing about consideration of the return of communal, United Orders style living.

 

Playstation/Xbox? TVs? Carpet? Motorcycles? Snowmobiles? ATVs? What about iPads? Computers if you don't work on them? Stereos? Musical instruments? Etc. New cars vs used cars? Pets?

 

How does this sort of stuff balance out? Johnny drives a used Corolla but Timmy gets a new Ford Superduty, both covered by the United Order fund -- but neither make a living with their vehicle? So do they both get a Superduty (or equivalent cost wise) or are they both forced to used economy cars?

 

Or, perhaps Zion will have the resources, knowledge, experience, and power to make their own vehicles as needed. Or, perhaps all things will be done by the power of the priesthood.

 

It is very exciting to think about how different our motivations, thoughts, minds, and feelings will be as a society. Imagine a whole community filled with the spirit of God. How different and how wonderful such a society or community will be as compared to modern day Babylon, or Western society.

 

-Finrock

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I am currently pondering the new-to-me idea that the various united orders failed, not because imperfect humans were incapable of living according to a "higher law", but because each variation of a "united order" was in reality not an application of the law of consecration, as we have always believed, but a futile effort of communistic economic and social order, and thus doomed to failure.

 

Which raises* the question: What would an actual economic implementation of the law of consecration look like? Which admits at least two possible answers:

 

*Note that it does not "beg the question". That means something else.

  1. It would look like nothing ever before seen and impossible to reproduce in our fallen sphere.
  2. It would look much like a healthy family.

I lean toward #2, but it really does beg the question (note the usage). What does the economic situation of a healthy family look like? What are the dynamics of adult siblings caring for themselves and each other? There are interesting implications, such as that you value your nieces' and nephews' well-being as much as that of your own children. I find that a bit foreign, and as such, scary -- certainly I love my nieces and nephews, but not above (or, truth be told, even as much as) my own children. And if my nieces and nephews should hold equal value to my own children in my heart, why not my grandnieces and grandnephews? Why not the neighborhood children? Why not the children of my enemies, or the children who taunt and torture my own?

 

Such a world seems alien to me. I don't know what to make of it. I don't know even whether to believe it. I certainly do not know how to live in it.

 

I suspect that businesses in Zion, in the celestial realms, will look much different from businesses we have now. I very highly doubt that corporations exist in the eternities, and I feel sure that the "profit motive" does not exist as a principle there, or at least that the "profit" desired is much different. But when you take away capital ideals, caring for oneself, independence, and profit as motives, I don't understand how to build a working society. It is like removing all money and financial tokens from an economy, then telling it to run. (In fact, it's not like that so much as it is that.)

 

Don't know. I would be plenty willing to try it, as I covenanted to do over 30 years ago. But if it's a reestablishment of some kind of Smithian/Youngian united order, I have no confidence that it will do any better today than it did 150 years ago.

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I think competition will be very much part of the economy--but it will be a friendly competition, with an ample safety net for those who are out-competed and decide to try their hand at some other sort of labor.

 

Can you expand a bit more on the friendly competition? I think of search engines that are largely built on the same technology, just neural net A vs neural net B. Why does this need to be any sort of market competition? Any friendly competition can happen within Zion Search to produce the best product.

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You can have a wagon and some oxen...maybe even horses. But no cars.

 

Really though. This question, imo, is perhaps the most fascinating thing about consideration of the return of communal, United Orders style living.

 

Playstation/Xbox? TVs? Carpet? Motorcycles? Snowmobiles? ATVs? What about iPads? Computers if you don't work on them? Stereos? Musical instruments? Etc. New cars vs used cars? Pets?

 

 

This is quite interesting to me but I haven't sorted out my thoughts on the subject to properly engage, so I'll largely contribute nods and "likes".

 

 Johnny drives a used Corolla but Timmy gets a new Ford Superduty, both covered by the United Order fund -- but neither make a living with their vehicle? 

 

You're still thinking with the Babylon economic mindset :) Does it matter if it's for a job? 

Edited by mordorbund
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I am currently pondering the new-to-me idea that the various united orders failed, not because imperfect humans were incapable of living according to a "higher law", but because each variation of a "united order" was in reality not an application of the law of consecration, as we have always believed, but a futile effort of communistic economic and social order, and thus doomed to failure.

 

...

 

Don't know. I would be plenty willing to try it, as I covenanted to do over 30 years ago. But if it's a reestablishment of some kind of Smithian/Youngian united order, I have no confidence that it will do any better today than it did 150 years ago.

 

The other story circulating in my head is how the Church got the Welfare system rolling. From the Church History in the Fulness of Times manual, the story is told of how the Church was concerned about members getting hit hard by the Great Depression. They found a stake president (Harold B. Lee) who seemed to be doing pretty well on a local scale and asked him to implement something on the general level. President Lee was worried about taking on such a large undertaking, only to be amazed that the infrastructure he needed was already set up. (the manual doesn't go into details, but I think of the Presiding Bishopric and the Relief Society Presidency, along with the granary they had since Sister Wells followed President Young's council to start storing wheat).

 

I think we may see something like that here too. I think we'll find some Zion-minded entrepreneurs have been conducting business in a way that, when applied more generally via the Law of Consecration outlined in the scriptures, fits perfectly in the Zion culture.

 

I wonder if I would leave my current job to work at such a company? What if it meant less stability or a pay cut?

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Can you expand a bit more on the friendly competition? I think of search engines that are largely built on the same technology, just neural net A vs neural net B. Why does this need to be any sort of market competition? Any friendly competition can happen within Zion Search to produce the best product.

 

Well, I don't think the profit motive would be *as much* of an issue (though I would respectfully disagree with Vort; I think the Church's attempts to implement the United Order previously suggest that even in a Zion society there is some sort of tangible link between doing one's job extremely well and enjoying, thereby, a moderately higher standard of living for oneself and one's family). 

 

But even if one completely rules out economic ambition, I do rather believe that a) technology and commercial/trade practices will continue to develop and improve gradually over the course of the Millennium; b) while those who live in the Millennium will be good, they will not be perfect; and c) the Milennial economy will not be some sort of Divine Corporatism wherein every business judgment is effected by celestial decree and "let's not bring this product to market" is synonymous with "THOU SHALT NOT bring this product to market". 

 

If an engineer at ZionSearch comes up with a new subroutine that he thinks makes the whole program better, but his higher ups reject it for whatever reason, and the engineer believes they have made a mistake--I can see a situation where the engineer amicably parts ways with his employer and launches a start-up to see what the consumer market thinks of his new idea.  It's competition, but not cutthroat--they're just fellowlaborers for the common good, each trying to implement his own vision of what that means and each, without ego, adopting a may-the-best-idea-win attitude.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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But if it's a reestablishment of some kind of Smithian/Youngian united order, I have no confidence that it will do any better today than it did 150 years ago.

 

I feel confident that it would do significantly worse in this "things" society we live in.

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You're still thinking with the Babylon economic mindset :) Does it matter if it's for a job? 

 

Sure it matters. I would like a Super Duty (which is why I use it as an example). Why? Because I think they're cool looking and I enjoy the idea of being higher than others on the road...uh...not sure what that says about me. :D But a farmer who would actually haul stuff with it. Heavy stuff. Stuff that would justify the cost? Yeah. I think it matters.

 

The reality is that a lot of stuff I want is based on shallow, unimportant reasoning. For a United Order society to work, everyone has to let go of all those reasonings. And that is not an easy thing to do, especially when it comes to toys.

 

Say for example I get the funding or what-have-you for a new bicycle for a child, but Bill next door carves a wooden horse for his kid. A. I feel guilty. B. Bill feels judgmental. C. Bill feels jealous. D. Bill complains about my extravagance. E. I complain about Bill's unecessary self-reliance when we should all be able to get our kids bicycles. F. Etc.

 

Insert any particular device. Why did Steve down the street put 16 gig of ram in his computer. I only did 8. Who really needs 16? I mean, come on! That's wasting the Lord's money, right? What about that riding lawn mower. Shouldn't we all at least be willing to push our mowers for the kingdom? And why is that guy's yard so big? He's wasting water, and for what? I have more kids, but I make do with a small yard.

 

In short, it's the same petty jealousies and the like that we deal with now, but exaggerated a hundred fold when we're all supposed to have all things in common.

 

Of course who knows how it would or could or might really work, if at all. But I don't see it working until we as a people can all legitimately not care -- wait...more than that -- be happy that Brother Johnson down the street drives a jacked-up super-duty with 40" tires even though he's a computer programmer. :)

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Of course who knows how it would or could or might really work, if at all. But I don't see it working until we as a people can all legitimately not care -- wait...more than that -- be happy that Brother Johnson down the street drives a jacked-up super-duty with 40" tires even though he's a computer programmer. :)

 

 

^^This is how I see it working.  We would all have sufficient for our needs and wants.  And, we would be pleased with the good fortune that befalls one another.  If Bro. Johnson wants the Super-duty with all the bells and whistles, and I would want a boat, we would all be happy for one another.  I suppose we would have righteous desires for the want of these items.  I would desire the boat for family activities to draw my family closer together.  Another family would have no interest in boating, but they may want a camp trailer.  Perhaps, Bro. Johnson wants his pickup, so he can exercise his priesthood by helping move families in and out of the Ward.  There would be no greed, jealousy or envy.  We would have sufficient.  And our individual needs and wants would be met.

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But I don't see it working until we as a people can all legitimately not care -- wait...more than that -- be happy that Brother Johnson down the street drives a jacked-up super-duty with 40" tires even though he's a computer programmer. :)

Or piously pray for the welfare of poor Brother Johnson, who is obviously compensating for something.

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Of course who knows how it would or could or might really work, if at all. But I don't see it working until we as a people can all legitimately not care -- wait...more than that -- be happy that Brother Johnson down the street drives a jacked-up super-duty with 40" tires even though he's a computer programmer. :)

 

 

^^This is how I see it working.  We would all have sufficient for our needs and [just] wants.  And, we would be pleased with the good fortune that befalls one another.  If Bro. Johnson wants the Super-duty with all the bells and whistles, and I would want a boat, we would all be happy for one another.  I suppose we would have righteous desires for the want of these items.  I would desire the boat for family activities to draw my family closer together.  Another family would have no interest in boating, but they may want a camp trailer.  Perhaps, Bro. Johnson wants his pickup, so he can exercise his priesthood by helping move families in and out of the Ward.  There would be no greed, jealousy or envy.  We would have sufficient.  And our individual needs and wants would be met.

 

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Concepts which will not exist in Zion

1) It will not be patterned after the manner of men (much like Nephi did not build a ship after the manner of men).  

2) I don't believe Zion could exist with the current economic application of supply and demand. 

3) Greed will not exist within Zion

4) Pursuits of selfishness will not exist

5) There will be no need for small font at the end of our contracts or a play on words.  Communication will be direct, honest, fair, and just.  There will be no deception.

6) Affirmative Action type laws will not exist as the system will be fair, unbiased, and no respecter of persons.  

 

Zion will need to be accomplished line upon line, grace for grace, here a little and there a little.  It will begin with members of the Church and honest individuals who desire a better atmosphere at work, economics, and who watch out for the poor (as we are told, if you seek for riches seek to clothe the naked and feed the hungry.  As specified I believe the current application of supply and demand will not exist in Zion.  It will be refined.

 

I once worked for an individual who said he would fire me because I wouldn't work on Christmas. The job didn't require this type of work, as there was no reason to work on Christmas -- except greed.  This type of attitude will not exist in Zion, "I'm the boss -- I own you," type attitudes.  I worked for another individual who demanded we write things on our private Facebook accounts at the threat of punishment if we didn't.  This type of attitude will not exist in Zion.  

 

P.S. The establishment of Zion is not possible within our current government economics and politics.  The manner of men is to heavily integrated and would squash out any efforts toward it.

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When scriptures speak of "our wants", they are not speaking of our fond desires or our lusts. They are using the word "want" as in "to be in want of something". The phrase "needs and wants" might be better expressed as "needs and lacks" or "things required and things missing".

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