our choice in the pre-existence


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In the pre-existence, both God and Satan presented us with different plans and we were given the opportunity to choose between them. God’s plan offered maximum opportunities for growth, learning and progression, with the likelihood that relatively few would reach the ultimate goal of the celestial kingdom. ( See Luke 13: 23 – 24). Satan’s plan offered minimal opportunities for growth, learning and progression, but a guarantee that we would all make it back to the presence of God. We chose a plan that provides for maximum benefits for the few over a plan that offered fewer benefits, but with those benefits being available to everyone. In making our decision, we knew that under the plan we were choosing, many, perhaps even most, would not make it to the final goal.

 

My question is, which weighed more heavily on our mind when we were making the decision about which plan to choose – our own self interest, or concern for the greater good? Did we give more weight to thoughts of what it would be possible for each of us to get and become under God’s plan than we did to thoughts about what would be in the best interest of the group as a whole? 

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I think you are hitting on the very argument used by Satan himself.  I don't and never did think that Satan ever said, 'join me, I'm evil'.  I rather believe that he said just what you are suggesting (among other things); that he would take care of use from cradle to grave and all we had to do was give up our agency... or that the group was more important than the individual.  (Funny how that sounds so very much like socialism).  I think the piece that is missing from Satan's argument is that on acceptance, we could not ever make it further than perhaps the Terrestrial Kingdom where we would always be subject to our "savior". 

 

The Celestial Kingdom is for those who are worthy of exaltation.  Something which could not be achieved through Satan's plan.  When you say that it was understood that not all would make it; I don't think any individual considered that that might mean them.  All who chose to accept God's plan desired the opportunity for exaltation.  On coming to earth in mortality, exaltation is as much a matter of choice now as it was then.  We are free to choose eternal life through the mediator of all men, or to choose death (spiritual death) by following Satan.

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A few clarifications.
 

In the pre-existence, both God and Satan presented us with different plans and we were given the opportunity to choose between them.

 
This is the oft-told story, the one I grew up with and believed, but it's only approximately true.
 
To be clear: At some point during our premortal life, the Father presented THE plan of salvation. There was only one. That plan required a Savior to redeem mankind. The First, whom we know today as Jesus the Christ, responded "Here am I. Send me, and the honor be Thine [that is, the Father's]." The Father did so.
 
At least one other responded, "Here am I. Send me. I will redeem all, that none shall be lost. Since my plan is superior, give me the honor." He was rejected. He and those who followed him then rebelled and were cast out, having failed to keep their first estate.
 
Nowhere in scripture is mentioned any idea of "competing plans" or (as I have often heard in my life) that we "voted". Our only "vote" was to decide whether we championed the Father's plan or Satan's rebellion. And it is crystal clear, at least to me, that Satan's only "plan" was to usurp the Father's honor and glory. He, Satan, had no "plan" to bring all to exaltation. Such is impossible, a defiance of the very meaning of the word "exalt". Satan's only "plan", if you care to call it that, was to usurp the Father's honor and destroy the agency of mankind. That is the selfsame "plan" he pursues today.
 

My question is, which weighed more heavily on our mind when we were making the decision about which plan to choose – our own self interest, or concern for the greater good? Did we give more weight to thoughts of what it would be possible for each of us to get and become under God’s plan than we did to thoughts about what would be in the best interest of the group as a whole? 

 

I would say our main point of decision was whether we loved and sought to follow the Father (or equivalently, his Only Begotten), or whether we loved and sought to follow other voices. Same point of decision we have now.

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A few clarifications.

 

 

This is the oft-told story, the one I grew up with and believed, but it's only approximately true.

 

To be clear: At some point during our premortal life, the Father presented THE plan of salvation. There was only one. That plan required a Savior to redeem mankind. The First, whom we know today as Jesus the Christ, responded "Here am I. Send me, and the honor be Thine [that is, the Father's]." The Father did so.

 

At least one other responded, "Here am I. Send me. I will redeem all, that none shall be lost. Since my plan is superior, give me the honor." He was rejected. He and those who followed him then rebelled and were cast out, having failed to keep their first estate.

 

Nowhere in scripture is mentioned any idea of "competing plans" or (as I have often heard in my life) that we "voted". Our only "vote" was to decide whether we championed the Father's plan or Satan's rebellion. And it is crystal clear, at least to me, that Satan's only "plan" was to usurp the Father's honor and glory. He, Satan, had no "plan" to bring all to exaltation. Such is impossible, a defiance of the very meaning of the word "exalt". Satan's only "plan", if you care to call it that, was to usurp the Father's honor and destroy the agency of mankind. That is the selfsame "plan" he pursues today.

 

 

I would say our main point of decision was whether we loved and sought to follow the Father (or equivalently, his Only Begotten), or whether we loved and sought to follow other voices. Same point of decision we have now.

Thank you for clearing that up. So many members think two plans were presented.
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Once, I think it was while reading Rev 12:11, where it says that we/they "overcame [the dragon] by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony", it made me speculate that maybe the "choice" that Lucifer was trying to present to us was one of doubt in the ability, power, calling, or some such of Jesus to perform the great atoning task that was His alone to perform. Could Lucifer's whole premortal campaign been one of "Are you all sure that you can trust Jehovah to do what He has been called to do? What if He fails?"

 

Perhaps it is just that it makes for a nice parallel to a big part of how we overcome Satan in this life (through our faith in Jesus Christ). Not only is "faith in Christ" the key element of keeping our second estate, it was a big part of keeping our first estate.

 

Just some speculation, though it does seem in a similar vein to Vort's suggestion.

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A few clarifications.
 
 
This is the oft-told story, the one I grew up with and believed, but it's only approximately true.
 
To be clear: At some point during our premortal life, the Father presented THE plan of salvation. There was only one. That plan required a Savior to redeem mankind. The First, whom we know today as Jesus the Christ, responded "Here am I. Send me, and the honor be Thine [that is, the Father's]." The Father did so.
 
At least one other responded, "Here am I. Send me. I will redeem all, that none shall be lost. Since my plan is superior, give me the honor." He was rejected. He and those who followed him then rebelled and were cast out, having failed to keep their first estate.
 
Nowhere in scripture is mentioned any idea of "competing plans" or (as I have often heard in my life) that we "voted". Our only "vote" was to decide whether we championed the Father's plan or Satan's rebellion. And it is crystal clear, at least to me, that Satan's only "plan" was to usurp the Father's honor and glory. He, Satan, had no "plan" to bring all to exaltation. Such is impossible, a defiance of the very meaning of the word "exalt". Satan's only "plan", if you care to call it that, was to usurp the Father's honor and destroy the agency of mankind. That is the selfsame "plan" he pursues today.
 
 

I would say our main point of decision was whether we loved and sought to follow the Father (or equivalently, his Only Begotten), or whether we loved and sought to follow other voices. Same point of decision we have now.

 

 

Good Post.  I too was taught that we somehow voted on two plans.  After studying it and pondering it, I'm not sure how or even that Satan's plan would have worked.  We have come in this country to worship the concept of "democracy" meaning we do whatever we vote on.  The problem is that a lot of people can be induced to vote on things that make no sense. If we vote gravity out, it's still going to happen.

 

My own thought is that Satan presented a plan that sounded good to a lot of people, but could it be not that we voted it out, nor that the Father just overrode, but simply a factual condition that it wouldn't work.  Satan didn't want to save everyone, rather he wanted glory and felt cheated and threw (and is still throwing) a temper tantrum when he was told no.

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I see Vort has posted this but I think it is important for people to know and understand that Satan had no plan. He was a liar from the beginning. He knew that the only way we could return back to Heavenly Father would be through THE Plan of Happiness. He knew that rebelling against God's plan would not save but damn God's children. So, Lucifer had no plan.
 

There is only ONE plan that works. Only ONE way to return back to Heavenly Father.

 

-Finrock

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Was going to weigh in...but Vort and Finrock said what I would have...so the rest is re-hash.

 

Satan's "plan" was a lie and would never exalt. There was not choice between two options to exaltation. There was a way to gain exaltation, and a way to not. The only choice we made was in whether we understood and trusted in our Father, or believed the lies that there was a better way. And that challenge is the same war we fight now. The same choices, the same challenges, the same half-truths, mingled-with-scriptures, it's-all-about-love, true-love-would-save-everybody, no-one-should-be-punished-for-who-they-are, LIES are the same that Satan has used from the beginning.

 

He is a liar.

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Whatever it was that Lucifer was offering, it must have been fairly convincing, or contained some truth, if one third of the hosts of heaven thought it was worth fighting for. Any ideas on what he was offering that made so many fight so hard for it, or what made it so appealing to so many? I'm also a little uncertain that God would allow an alternative based on a lie to be seriously considered. If it never had any prospect of succeeding, ie, offering the possibility of exaltation, would God have allowed it to even be put forward for consideration? 

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Whatever it was that Lucifer was offering, it must have been fairly convincing, or contained some truth, if one third of the hosts of heaven thought it was worth fighting for. Any ideas on what he was offering that made so many fight so hard for it, or what made it so appealing to so many? I'm also a little uncertain that God would allow an alternative based on a lie to be seriously considered. If it never had any prospect of succeeding, ie, offering the possibility of exaltation, would God have allowed it to even be put forward for consideration? 

 

We know what Satan's "plan" entailed at the broadest level. That is to take away our agency. Traditionally this has been interpreted as taking away our choice, as most people understand agency as nothing more than free will. But this is not what agency is. Agency is choice AND accountability. And it strikes me that a proposal to take away choice might have appealed to some, but taking away accountability would have appealed to a great many. In short, what Satan may well have been trying to sell is that he, if chosen, would take away consequences and just save everyone. Sounds about like the same thing he's still trying to sell the world now, doesn't it? And it seems to appeal to the vast majority, does it not?

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We know what Satan's "plan" entailed at the broadest level. That is to take away our agency. Traditionally this has been interpreted as taking away our choice, as most people understand agency as nothing more than free will. But this is not what agency is. Agency is choice AND accountability. And it strikes me that a proposal to take away choice might have appealed to some, but taking away accountability would have appealed to a great many. In short, what Satan may well have been trying to sell is that he, if chosen, would take away consequences and just save everyone. Sounds about like the same thing he's still trying to sell the world now, doesn't it? And it seems to appeal to the vast majority, does it not?

 

I thinking you are opening a door that many do not understand or think much about.  I would add something to accountability that is associated with the difference between Christ and Satan.  That is the accountability of G-d in granting agency.  The accountability of G-d in granting agency means that justice demands that the one giving agency is also liable or accountable.  The same is understood concerning agency of insurance companies or financial matters even in our one society.  This is why agency - specifically our agency was bought with a price in the atonement. 

 

Besides preventing the repercussions of sin - even in those that do not sin - Satan had no intention of taking on the just responsibilities of our agency under his direction.  This is why he opposed us having agency.  Thus his efforts were not only to prevent sin but to save himself and those that followed him from any responsibility for allowing agency to all with any accompanying possibility of sin.

 

In short Jesus was willing to sacrifice himself that we might have agency and Satan was willing to sacrifice our agency that he could become glorified. 

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After reading the posts here and thinking about it a bit further, I see that my original post can be re-written without any reference to Satan or his intentions. Leaving Satan aside, did we really sustain a plan that we knew, or should have known, would result in the eternal separation of many, perhaps most, of God's children from their Father in the hope/belief that we would be one of those who ultimately received the full benefits that were on offer under God's plan? Did we choose to sustain a plan that offered great rewards for the few and eternal separation from God for the many? 

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This might be a helpful clarification on whether there was one plan or two. 

 

Bruce R. McConkie

One of the saddest examples of a misconceived and twisted knowledge of an otherwise glorious concept is the all-too-common heresy that there were two plans of salvation; that the Father (presumptively at a loss to know what to do) asked others for proposals; that Christ offered a plan involving agency and Lucifer proposed a plan denying agency; that the Father chose between them; and that Lucifer, his plan being rejected, rebelled, and then there was war in heaven.

Even a cursory knowledge of the overall scheme of things reassures spiritually discerning persons that all things center in the Father; that the plan of salvation which he designed was to save his children, Christ included; and that neither Christ nor Lucifer could of themselves save anyone. As Jesus said: 'The Son can do nothing of himself. . . . I can of mine own self do nothing.' (John 5:19,30)

There is, of course, a sense in which we may refer to Lucifer's proposed modifications of the Father's plan as Lucifer's plan, and Christ made the Father's plan his own by adoption. But what is basically important in this respect is to know that the power to save is vested in the Father, and that he originated, ordained, created, and established his own plan; that he announced it to his children; and that he then asked for a volunteer to be the Redeemer, the Deliverer, the Messiah, who would put the eternal plan of the Eternal Father into eternal operation. (The Mortal Messiah, pp. 48-49 n.3) DGSM:15

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After reading the posts here and thinking about it a bit further, I see that my original post can be re-written without any reference to Satan or his intentions. Leaving Satan aside, did we really sustain a plan that we knew, or should have known, would result in the eternal separation of many, perhaps most, of God's children from their Father in the hope/belief that we would be one of those who ultimately received the full benefits that were on offer under God's plan? Did we choose to sustain a plan that offered great rewards for the few and eternal separation from God for the many? 

 

Seems like what you're missing is the idea that any state we end up in after mortality is progression from where we were. At the least, we have gained our physical bodies.

 

Another point, I think maybe missing, is that we chose a plan of justice. How could anyone legitimately content against justice? Absolute, pure, concrete fairness.

 

I also think that the idea that most are bound to fail denies agency. The truth is that there is no reason whatsoever that every single one of God's children could not legitimately be exalted if they so chose. There was never any guarantee of failure whatsoever.

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Satan's plan came out of selfishness and pride, plus the taking away free agency.

God could not agree to this as He is the opposite of selfish and prideful.  Also, satan's

plan would not allow us the agency that God wanted us to partake of so we could be

free to choose right, instead of coerced into what is right and good.  By the way, it is

doubtful that satan would have kept to plan of 'getting us all back to God' as he had

not the power nor inclination to do such......he wanted to have all the glory for himself.

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