When did evil first conceive in us?


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I think the answer to this might depend on your definition of evil. If evil is defined as choosing to act against God's will then evil emerged when (a) we first became aware of God's will and (b) when we developed the capacity to choose and act. I'm guessing that both our awareness of God's will and our capacity to choose and act occurred gradually, over a period of time. If the existence of evil is dependent on the existence of sin, and sin is defined as acting contrary to law that we are subject to, then evil would have come into existence no sooner than the existence of law. I suspect that law, in some form or another, has always been around. 

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 I suspect that law, in some form or another, has always been around. 

D&C 88:37-38 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

 

​There is a Celestial law all must abide by to enter into the Celestial kingdom after the resurrection. No unclean thing can enter into the Celestial kingdom after the resurrection. There is still agency but all there have yielded their will to the Fathers. There are none to tempt or entice the spirit children to do evil there...unless you believe in rogue celestial beings willing to be cast out of the Celestial kingdom; or perhaps at certain stages of development we were given Adam and Eve type choices designed to lead us toward or away from God.

 

On one hand there's wisdom or the ability to discern between good and evil. Is it like the other talents we develop to a greater or lesser extent before coming to mortality? Were some so lacking in wisdom that pride so easily lead them astray?

 

On the other hand, our intelligence, that which makes us who we are...we know there were various levels of intelligence like plants, animals, human...Could our pre-spirit life intelligence been prone to unrighteousness? There must needs be opposition in all things. If our Heavenly Father knew of and dealt with "intelligences" then wouldn't a source of evil also needs be allowed to give opposition? 

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Its my belief that certainly as intelligences some of us made better choices than did others. I think that's why some intelligences ended up as plants and animals, and others as people. And yes, our ability to choose between good and evil is and must be an ability that increases as we exercise it more. That's one of the main reasons why we are here - to further develop that ability - and probably one of the main reasons HOW we came to be here in the form that we now have.. 

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Its my belief that certainly as intelligences some of us made better choices than did others. I think that's why some intelligences ended up as plants and animals, and others as people.

 

The implication that you believe that the beings who became sons and daughters of God are the same type of beings as became plants and cats?

 

I think not.

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As to my knowledge and understanding of the concept of "evil" a few passages of scripture enter into my heart and mind.  The first is 2 Nephi 2: 13, which specifies the importance of laws.  Laws induce opposition, contrast between light and dark, truth and error, good and evil, joy and sorrow. 

 

The second scripture is a few verses later, 2 Nephi 2: 16, clarifying the ability for the sons and daughter of God to act for themselves, or to be acted upon.  In order to act for ourselves we are enticed to keep the law or break it.  When then did evil conceive in us?  The moment we were enticed by evil and chose to act in accordance with evil's temptations.  

 

To some degree, I would assume, evil intentions were manifest as intelligences before our mortal probation.  Satan's rebellion is an obvious example that enticed the sons and daughters of God between truth and error, right and wrong, good and evil.

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I would say evil has always existed. Evil is simply based on the law of cause and effect. That which we call evil is what in the eternal scheme brings disorder and chaos. However, sin first conceived in us at birth, "And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good" (Moses 6:55). 
 
The reason sin conceives in us at birth is because it requires illusion. Sin implies we are at odds within ourselves. In other words, at the core we know what is right and yet we do not what is right. Paul says it this way:

I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. (Romans 7:15-20 NRSV)

We do not what is right because we are weak, not because we are bad. See, the fall did not make us weak it simply exposed our weakness by placing us in an environment where we had to struggle (see TPJS p 354). 

 

Such is not the case once we are resurrected. In that state we will do exactly what we intend to do. The internal war is at an end and the confusion and darkness which covered us on the earth will be gone. However, to the extent that we did not overcome the enemy of our soul, we will continue to be lacking. We will not have the power, light and understanding others have obtained and to that extent "evil" will remain with us.

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The implication that you believe that the beings who became sons and daughters of God are the same type of beings as became plants and cats?

 

I think not.

 

Well, perhaps not plants, but I think there is an arguement that can be made for animals. In the same way that God has prepared a multiplicity of rewards for differing levels of performance in this life, catering well for those who fail to make the top grade, I think that He prepared a multiplicity of different rewards for those intelligences who failed to make the top grade as intelligences, with the top reward being for an intelligence to be joined to a human spirit and the lesser rewards being some sort of animal spirit. I think it has been taught that animals have intelligence, so that intelligence must have come from somewhere. it also seems to be consistent with the economy of God that He would have done something useful with those intelligences that failed to make the grade.

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As to my knowledge and understanding of the concept of "evil" a few passages of scripture enter into my heart and mind.  The first is 2 Nephi 2: 13, which specifies the importance of laws.  Laws induce opposition, contrast between light and dark, truth and error, good and evil, joy and sorrow. 

 

The second scripture is a few verses later, 2 Nephi 2: 16, clarifying the ability for the sons and daughter of God to act for themselves, or to be acted upon.  In order to act for ourselves we are enticed to keep the law or break it.  When then did evil conceive in us?  The moment we were enticed by evil and chose to act in accordance with evil's temptations.  

 

To some degree, I would assume, evil intentions were manifest as intelligences before our mortal probation.  Satan's rebellion is an obvious example that enticed the sons and daughters of God between truth and error, right and wrong, good and evil.

 

And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?" John 9:2 

 

Obviously the disciples felt that there was pre-mortal sin or they wouldn't have asked the question that way. In the Pearl of Great Price we read:

 

"For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world." Moses 5: 24

 

So we can see that the atonement must apply to both mortality and pre-mortality.

 

Now D&C 88:37-38 states: "And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions."

 

So apparently your "Laws induce opposition" are in effect and Joseph Smith taught  “Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning?  The intelligence of spirits had not beginning, neither will it have an end. . . . Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle.”  (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.353-354).

 

I lean towards intelligences having good or evil dispositions prior to being born as spirit children of our Heavenly Father.

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I would say evil has always existed. Evil is simply based on the law of cause and effect. That which we call evil is what in the eternal scheme brings disorder and chaos. However, sin first conceived in us at birth, "And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good" (Moses 6:55). 

 

 

Birth is without a doubt when sin conceives in us in mortality. However, as Mormon points out: "Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them...And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins. But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world." (Moroni 8:11-12) 

 

As I pointed out elsewhere, Christ's disciples certainly thought it was possible to sin in pre-mortality.

 

And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?" John 9:2 

 

Obviously the disciples felt that there was pre-mortal sin or they wouldn't have asked the question that way. In the Pearl of Great Price we read:

 

"For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world." Moses 5: 24

 

To be perdition "before the world" you certainly had to sin. So we can see that the atonement must apply to both mortality and pre-mortality. And I have a feeling we had a disposition to good or evil as intelligences before being born as spirit children of our Heavenly Father...but that's just my opinion. 

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Evil has always existed.  As intelligence we have always been aware of evil but being in the presents of G-d we did understand and know results such that we feared to try evil and therefore did not have knowledge of evil.  Likewise we did not have knowledge of good.  The problem was to the know evil would cause death - death being the knowledge of evil.

 

The plan of Salvation gives us knowledge of evil through tasting death.  Likewise the plan of Salvation also provides the atonement of Christ which is the knowledge of good.  Thus the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the plan of salvation and having taking or tasted of the fruit we experience death and also redemption through Christ's atonement.  This allows us to sin with various levels of ignorance and then to be redeemed - also with various levels of ignorance.  Then at the final judgment we can stand before G-d and choose with knowledge -- good or evil.

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I think that rather than frame this discussion in terms of good and evil, it's more helpful to talk in terms of progression and regression. All and only that which contributes to, or enables our progression is good, while all and only that which a) does not contribute to our progression, or b) contributes to our regression, is evil. If this is the case, then evil commenced the moment progression and regression became possible. 

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Well, perhaps not plants, but I think there is an arguement that can be made for animals. In the same way that God has prepared a multiplicity of rewards for differing levels of performance in this life, catering well for those who fail to make the top grade, I think that He prepared a multiplicity of different rewards for those intelligences who failed to make the top grade as intelligences, with the top reward being for an intelligence to be joined to a human spirit and the lesser rewards being some sort of animal spirit. I think it has been taught that animals have intelligence, so that intelligence must have come from somewhere. it also seems to be consistent with the economy of God that He would have done something useful with those intelligences that failed to make the grade.

 

As I said. I think not.

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I think that part of the difference between humanity and animals might be attributable to the differences in the natures of the intelligences that God had to work with. But I think the greater difference would be more attributable to what God did with those intelligences, and what He added to them. 

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I would specify that my intelligence has always been a son of God, and never did it have the chance to be an animal of any sort.  I would specify all animal intelligences were always animal intelligences and never would have been anything but an animal.  

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I like to think that intelligences existed independently of God, possibly even way before He became God and that it was He who organised them to the point where they were able to progress. Those that progressed well, God did whatever He did to enable them to become people, and those that did not progress as well, He still rewarded with a body, but not a human body. I don't think an intelligence chose to become an animal, but that becoming an animal was a consequence of its choices. 

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Evil has always existed.  As intelligence we have always been aware of evil but being in the presents of G-d we did understand and know results such that we feared to try evil and therefore did not have knowledge of evil.  Likewise we did not have knowledge of good.  The problem was to the know evil would cause death - death being the knowledge of evil.

 

So your saying that intelligences have always been aware of good and evil but they feared to try either, and so without experience they had no knowledge?

 

If that's what you meant, how could there be progression? 

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So your saying that intelligences have always been aware of good and evil but they feared to try either, and so without experience they had no knowledge?

 

If that's what you meant, how could there be progression? 

 

It is kind of like marriage.  You can study it, be told about it and you can even date some; all of which will assist in progressing - but you will not have knowledge of marriage - not really until you experience the full spectrum of it (including the results).

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I love the remarks that I am reading here and I would like to contribute even in a small way if possible. It seems to me that scripturally we seem to be in an area that is at best sketchy; that is we dont know a lot of details about the pre-mortal spirit life and the pre-spirit life as intelligences that we can point to in scripture. Much of what we hear comes from non-canonical sources and some would even question if there was an evolution from intelligence to spirit; I like to think there was.  There is a very good read by B.H. Roberts called The Immortality of Man written in the Improvement Era of 1907. I will give you the link at the end. If you look at the notes at the bottom of Roberts' paper you will see that not all of the general authorities at the time agreed with Roberts, and then some changed their minds to the positive later.

After reading Roberts paper I decided to write down what I thought might be some attributes of the so-called intelligence state for my own personal study.  I put down 15 items not intended to be all inclusive but just as a basis to study. A couple of the 15 were that an intelligence was capable of judging, was capable of making choices, had moral agency.  I found that D&C 93 had a lot to say about these things and I tend to agree that if you had choice, you could obey or disobey then you could sin and that the infinite Atonement could reach back (See Rev 12:7-11) and take care of these things.

 

Not to long ago I read somewhere (this is lame) that God observed Christ in the intelligent state for eons of time before he was chosen to be the Christ/Messiah. I so wish I had the reference to that paraphrase now, because to use that without a reference is lame.  I am sorry. If anyone else has seen that I would love to know where it came from because I tend to believe it.

 

B.H. RobertsThe Immortality of Man

(enjoy)

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/Immortality-of-Man.html

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I love the remarks that I am reading here and I would like to contribute even in a small way if possible.

 

Not to long ago I read somewhere (this is lame) that God observed Christ in the intelligent state for eons of time before he was chosen to be the Christ/Messiah. I so wish I had the reference to that paraphrase now...[if] anyone else has seen that I would love to know where it came from because I tend to believe it.

 

B.H. RobertsThe Immortality of Man

(enjoy)

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/Immortality-of-Man.html

Thanks, several including yourself have contributed good ideas here. And yes I realize it is speculative but I find good conversation followed by prayerful pondering often sheds new light on things. I appreciate you B.F. Roberts url, I'll need to read it through a couple of times before commenting on it :)  

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It is kind of like marriage.  You can study it, be told about it and you can even date some; all of which will assist in progressing - but you will not have knowledge of marriage - not really until you experience the full spectrum of it (including the results).

OK, I see what your saying :) 

 

For me it seems that if there are tests/choices between right and wrong in mortality, and the were tests/choices between right and wrong in premortality, that there should also have been some kind of tests or choices as intelligences - not as you say, "the full spectrum" - in premortality how could we know what mortality would be like with the veil in place over our minds? Yet, the decision made there cost 1/3 of the host of heaven a chance at mortal life. 

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I like to think that intelligences existed independently of God, possibly even way before He became God and that it was He who organised them to the point where they were able to progress. 

From the King Follett Sermon: "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. "

 

From Lorenzo Snow we have the following couplet: "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.'' This being true, Heavenly Father at one point must have passed from being an intelligence, a spirit, a mortal and a Celestial Resurrected being.

 

John 5:19 states: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

 

Again from the King Follett Sermon: "The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again."

 

Finally in the King Follett Sermon we read: " If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. [from Rev. 1:6 "...And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father."]

 

Long story short, even God began as an intelligence before being spiritually begotten by a heavenly Father, successfully progressing through mortality to become a celestial resurrected God in his own right.

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There is a very good read by B.H. Roberts called The Immortality of Man written in the Improvement Era of 1907. 

I find this paragraph from Roberts to be along my line of thinking in that an intelligence is capable of informed choice between what is bad or good in terms if him/herself and being capable of such reasoning must have a reason to do so for what would an option-less eternity be but hell?

 

"There is in that complex thing we call man an intelligent entity, uncreated, self existent, indestructible. He--for that entity is a person, because, as we shall see, he is possessed of powers that go with personality only, hence that entity is "he," not "it,"--he is eternal as God is; co-existent, in fact, with God; of the same kind of substance or essence with deity, though confessedly inferior in degree of intelligence and power to God. One must needs think that the name of this eternal entity--what God calls him--conveys to the mind some idea of his nature. He is called an "intelligence;" and this I believe is descriptive of him. That is, intelligence is the entity's chief characteristic. If this be a true deduction, then the entity must be self-conscious. He must have the power to distinguish himself from other things--the "me" from the "not me." He must have power of deliberation, by which he sets over one thing against another; with power also to form a judgment that this or that is a better thing or state than this or that. Also there goes with this idea of intelligence a power of choosing one thing instead of another, one state rather than another. These powers are inseparably connected with any idea that may be formed of an intelligence. One cannot conceive of intelligence existing without these qualities any more than he can conceive of an object existing in space without dimensions. The phrase, "the light of truth" is given in one of the revelations as the equivalent for an "intelligence" here discussed; by which it is meant to be understood, as I think, that intelligent entities perceive the truth, are conscious of the truth, they know that which is, hence "the light of truth," "intelligence." Let it be observed that I say nothing as to the mode of the existence of these intelligences, beyond the fact of their eternity. But of their form, or the manner of their subsistence nothing, so far as I know, has been revealed, and hence we are without means of knowing anything about the modes of their existence beyond the fact of it, and the essential qualities they possess, which already have been pointed out."

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