Does God Exist?

[Jamie123]

Before we can answer this question...

 

1. What is God?

2, What does it mean to exist?

 

I don't totally know how to answer the second question except to give some examples...

 

Things that exist:

Kangaroos

Blue whales

The North Star

 

Things that don't exist:

Mermaids

Dragons

The Loch Ness Monster (probably)

 

So what is God? The creator? If so then God must be that which determines which of the two above lists any given item belongs to. Or to put it another way, any entity obtains its property of existence or nonexistence from God.

 

So which list does God belong to? If God does not exist then nothing exists from which anything else could have derived its existence. But if God does exist, then from what did He obtained that property of existence? From Himself? If so then He is himself a part of His own creation.

 

This makes a nonsense out of anyone who says "Where did everything come from? A creator must exist! That is God!". In bestowing the property of existence upon God, they include Him within creation. We're left with the same question: "What created creation?" (in which "creation" now includes God).

 

It reminds me of a question I used to wonder about when I was a kid: "Is water wet?" A thing becomes wet from contact with water; if it has not been in contact with water then it is dry. If water is that which determines wetness or dryness, is water itself wet or dry? Most people thought I was an idiot for asking such a question, but maybe the question "Does God exist?" is no different. 

[Just_A_Guy]

I would just point out that on your list of "things that don't exist"--all three of those things are basically fanciful human interpretations, but rooted in things that do in fact exist (I believe the common wisdom is that "mermaids" got their start from sailors who saw manatees in the distance.  There are large reptiles that look an awful lot like dragons; and of course those photos of the Nessie show something--even if it's just a stick of wood, rather than a serpentine sea monster).

 

The problem of "who created God?" is speculatively intriguing to me--and of course, Mormonism's view is unique in that it basically ascribes to God (and to all mankind) an uncreated, eternally existing core which developed (evolved?) into its current form with the assistance of some "higher being", and that the chain of higher beings--so far as we are aware--stretches back into infinity.  It's certainly mind-boggling; but ultimately but I have a hard time seeing it as logically more problematic than either the mainline Christian idea of God who "was just always there". 

 

And the secular scientific notion of a "big bang" encompasses an ongoing debate that is really pretty analogous to the Mormon/mainline Christian views of God's past.  The idea, as I understand it, is that prior to the big bang the universe consisted of an immensely dense particle of mass existing in a void so empty that there was not even such a thing as "space" or "time"; and that either this particle was "just always there" (analagous to the mainline Christian view of God), or was this particle was the most recent result of a perpetual cycle of expansions and contractions that stretches back into infinity (analogous to the Mormon view of God).

[Vort]

Btw, Jamie, I love your penny-farthing.

[pam]

Wait..dragons do exist:

 

[Just_A_Guy]

Pam, your picture is an obvious forgery.  Unlike my genuine photograph, which I took on vacation last month in a little New England town called Passamaquoddy:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pam]

Hey I believe in Elliot.  :)

[Guest MormonGator]

While it's impossible to prove that God exists, it's possible to show how someone might conclude He exists. Look up the arguments of St. Thomas Aquinas to start with. His Quinque Viae argument was brilliant back then, it is still brilliant today. 

 

I also don't think you can disprove the existence of God, either. You can do the same thing-show reasons why He may not exist. 

Edited May 5, 2015 by MormonGator

[Guest]

While it's impossible to prove that God exists, ... I also don't think you can disprove the existence of God, either. 

 

Yes, I agree.  For me it's an interesting topic if I'm talking with someone who isn't looking for a fight.  I've found that if I happen to be talking one-on-one with someone who is sincerely searching or is troubled [by the apparent absence of responses when praying], then listening to that someone more than talking is often more edifying. 

[Guest MormonGator]

Yes, I agree.  For me it's an interesting topic if I'm talking with someone who isn't looking for a fight.  I've found that if I happen to be talking one-on-one with someone who is sincerely searching or is troubled [by the apparent absence of responses when praying], then listening to that someone more than talking is often more edifying. 

 Oh I totally agree. It's a great topic, actually.

 

You are right about the other thing as well-people don't really want to talk about it, they are usually just looking for an argument. 

[Jamie123]

Btw, Jamie, I love your penny-farthing.

LOL thanks Vort - I wonder how many more of us possess the 2-level nerdyness needed to get the joke

[Traveler]

Before we can answer this question...

 

1. What is God?

2, What does it mean to exist?

 

I don't totally know how to answer the second question except to give some examples...

 

Things that exist:

Kangaroos

Blue whales

The North Star

 

Things that don't exist:

Mermaids

Dragons

The Loch Ness Monster (probably)

 

So what is God? The creator? If so then God must be that which determines which of the two above lists any given item belongs to. Or to put it another way, any entity obtains its property of existence or nonexistence from God.

 

So which list does God belong to? If God does not exist then nothing exists from which anything else could have derived its existence. But if God does exist, then from what did He obtained that property of existence? From Himself? If so then He is himself a part of His own creation.

 

This makes a nonsense out of anyone who says "Where did everything come from? A creator must exist! That is God!". In bestowing the property of existence upon God, they include Him within creation. We're left with the same question: "What created creation?" (in which "creation" now includes God).

 

It reminds me of a question I used to wonder about when I was a kid: "Is water wet?" A thing becomes wet from contact with water; if it has not been in contact with water then it is dry. If water is that which determines wetness or dryness, is water itself wet or dry? Most people thought I was an idiot for asking such a question, but maybe the question "Does God exist?" is no different. 

 

I personally have found that all empirical and spiritual evidence indicates that G-d exist.  But similar to your symbolism with water and wetness - there are good parallels but like so many good references to symbolism - it can be taken too far. 

 

With my friends and colleges that deny G-d - I have discovered that the main reason non believers do not believe is because of the many false concepts of G-d that circulate in religion because of symbolism of him being taken way too far.  Without the revelation of the restoration and the Gift of the Holy Ghost I would not  believe in the g-ds of modern day religions that have so thoughtlessly rejected the restoration.

 

But to my doubting and not believing friends - I put forth the notion.  If you can believe that in the billions of years that your universe has been evolving that all we see in existence - including the intelligence life on this obscure planet - and that such has evolved and came about without any divine assistance - what is to stop the evolving intelligence for discovering the parameters that cause such things to take place and duplicating the effect?  I submit that is what we see is possible to happen by random chance - that if G-d does not yet exist - that such intelligence is possible in some future.

 

And that if there is any possibility that a G-d could exist - then they are under obligation to intelligently prove that he does not - in order to have any credibility for their rhetorical logic to now reject the notion is valid.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Traveler

[Pa Pa]

Albert Einstein said..."All that I know teaches me to trust in the creator for all that I don't know". I know little, but the love I feel for my family and others comes from God. The things that we don't know is why we need faith. I have had many spiritual experiences that simply will not allow me to disbelieve. This is why faith exists and grows by trusting in Him.

[Guest]

Albert Einstein said..."All that I know teaches me to trust in the creator for all that I don't know". ...

 

Can you provide me with the context of this quote and a reliable reference?