Moses


bytor2112
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I have always thought the description in this oassage was a tad confusing.

 

"And it came to pass that Satan cried with a loud voice, with weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and he departed hence, even from the presence of Moses, that he beheld him not."

 

Anyone else? I have pretty much decided that this is just figurative and not reality as Satan doesn't have teeth to gnash.

 

Other conclusions?

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I don’t see a problem with this scripture.

The Doctrine and Covenants explains that "the spirit of man [is] in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast; and every other creature which God has created" (D&C 77:2).

That spirit bodies resemble physical bodies is demonstrated in the account of the premortal Jesus visiting the brother of Jared many centuries before Jesus' birth (Ether 3:9-16). On that occasion, the Lord revealed his spirit body and said, "this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; ...and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh."

So, Satan most assuredly does have teeth, just as every other spirit being has.

 

We also learn in the D&C that: "There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes." (D&C 131:7)

 

Satan's teeth are not immaterial, but made of matter; therefore he can no doubt gnash them if he has a mind to.

 

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I don’t see a problem with this scripture.
The Doctrine and Covenants explains that "the spirit of man [is] in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast; and every other creature which God has created" (D&C 77:2).
That spirit bodies resemble physical bodies is demonstrated in the account of the premortal Jesus visiting the brother of Jared many centuries before Jesus' birth (Ether 3:9-16). On that occasion, the Lord revealed his spirit body and said, "this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; ...and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh."
So, Satan most assuredly does have teeth, just as every other spirit being has.
 
We also learn in the D&C that: "There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes." (D&C 131:7)
 
Satan's teeth are not immaterial, but made of matter; therefore he can no doubt gnash them if he has a mind to.
 

 

 

Yeah...ok, I agree he has teeth, just not physical ones. Gnashing is to grind and that would /could not occur with a being that is spirit...imo. I think the phrase is used to describe the incredible anger satan felt at being rejected in his exchange with Moses.

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What troubles me, with my limited knowledge is the idea that Satan does not have a body.  He is an evil spirit and can take many forms.

In the Garden of Eden he takes the form of a serpent.

I think it's common belief that Satan can take a form or appear in a form very different. 

But the most recognizable form is the beast.

I guess the answer to the op is that in Moses 1: 22 Satan takes a form or appears in such a form to have teeth.  I thnk it's clear that Moses recognizes who he is from the start, tho' he does say "Who art thou?".  Why is that (that he recognizes Satan")?

God told Moses "Thou art after the similitude of mine Only Begotten." in reference to Satan.  Here Satan has taken the form or appearance of Jesus, no? 

So he has no particular body, but can appear in many forms.

dc

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What troubles me, with my limited knowledge is the idea that Satan does not have a body.  He is an evil spirit and can take many forms.

In the Garden of Eden he takes the form of a serpent.

I think it's common belief that Satan can take a form or appear in a form very different. 

But the most recognizable form is the beast.

I guess the answer to the op is that in Moses 1: 22 Satan takes a form or appears in such a form to have teeth.  I thnk it's clear that Moses recognizes who he is from the start, tho' he does say "Who art thou?".  Why is that (that he recognizes Satan")?

God told Moses "Thou art after the similitude of mine Only Begotten." in reference to Satan.  Here Satan has taken the form or appearance of Jesus, no? 

So he has no particular body, but can appear in many forms.

dc

 

It isn't that (he) has no "particular" body. It is that he has *no* physical body at all, according to our doctrine anyway.  What do you mean when you refer to a recognizable form (which) is "the beast"?  What are some examples to accompany your assertion that Satan can appear in many forms?  

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... I have pretty much decided that this is just figurative and not reality as Satan doesn't have teeth to gnash. ...

 

So, if Satan (as a spirit entity) has no teeth.  I'm wondering what else you visualize that he doesn't have?  I'm having a difficult time envisioning a spirit with no teeth because it makes me wonder what else he doesn't have inside his mouth.  Or doesn't he have a mouth, either.  And if he doesn't have a mouth, does he have a face, etc.  I'm truly not trying to be facetious, or flippant.  I'm interested in understanding.

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I think it's figurative.  Gnashing of teeth is used many times throughout the bible.  It's usually used in reference to the final judgment of sinners.  Sometimes even in a parable.

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I have always thought the description in this oassage was a tad confusing.

 

"And it came to pass that Satan cried with a loud voice, with weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and he departed hence, even from the presence of Moses, that he beheld him not."

 

Anyone else? I have pretty much decided that this is just figurative and not reality as Satan doesn't have teeth to gnash.

 

Other conclusions?

he does have a spirit body. spirits have been known to manifest themselves- as the image and sound that mimics the physical.

i'd actually be thinking more literal; expressions of anger often involve clenched teeth.

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I think it's figurative.  Gnashing of teeth is used many times throughout the bible.  It's usually used in reference to the final judgment of sinners.  Sometimes even in a parable.

 

I can go with that in terms of a particular expression. Still, I am more prone to believe spirits have teeth. I note the scripture also tells us he cried out with a loud voice. I'm more prone to believe he has a voice and did make sound rather than believe that this too is figurative.  

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Let's start with Genesis 3.  The serpent, Lucifer.

1 Peter 5;  8

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Revelation 12;  9

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

2 Corinthians 11;  14

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

dc

Edited by David13
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David,

While I have some time here at work I'd like to address your questions and confusion.

 

You wrote: "What troubles me, with my limited knowledge is the idea that Satan does not have a body.  He is an evil spirit and can take many forms."

 

Satan (Lucifer in the pre-mortal life) is a son of God, just as you and I are. He was born in the same way, and with the same kind of spirit body all of God's children have. If you were to look upon him you would see a man with a face, a torso, arms, legs, mouth, eyes, etc.---a man in every sense of the word. 

He does not and cannot transform himself into anything else. 

It's true he may enter into the physical bodies of men or beasts, but he does not "transform" himself (alter his spirit body) into one.

 

"In the Garden of Eden he takes the form of a serpent."

 

There is nothing in the story that indicates Satan "transformed" himself into a serpent. Satan could have merely possessed the body of the serpent while speaking through it; or he could have persuaded the serpent to speak the words he gave him (assuming beasts had the power of speech before the fall); or Satan could have appeared to Adam and Eve just as he was (a man) and Moses used the word "serpent" symbolically--- "And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ" (D&C 76:28)

 

"I guess the answer to the op is that in Moses 1: 22 Satan takes a form or appears in such a form to have teeth."

 

Once again, Satan is a man with the spirit body of a man. He cannot be anything other than what he is. He has all of the features of a man including teeth. I find it curious that the "teeth" thing seems to bother some here, while the "voice" thing doesn't. If a spirit body cannot gnash teeth, why would one be able to make noise through a larynx??

 

"I thnk it's clear that Moses recognizes who he is from the start, tho' he does say "Who art thou?".  Why is that (that he recognizes Satan)?"

 

Whether or not Moses recognized him from the start, it's clear that at some point in the conversation he did. Perhaps through the workings of the Spirit the veil of forgetfulness was lifted and Moses recognized Lucifer from the pre-mortal life? 

When Moses asks, "Who art thou?", I don’t believe he was asking in the vein of , "who are you---I don't know you", but rather he was saying, "who the heck do you think you are that I should worship you? Where’s your glory, pal? I couldn't look upon God except I was transfigured before him (otherwise being in His physical presence would have destroyed me), but I can look upon you without any such transfiguration (in the natural man). 

Am I right?

Huh?

Yeah, I'm right, so take a hike!

Or if you prefer, get thee hence!

 

"God told Moses "Thou art after the similitude of mine Only Begotten." in reference to Satan.  Here Satan has taken the form or appearance of Jesus, no?"

 

Uhhh, no.

You're misreading the verse (6) here.

"And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth…"

 

God is telling Moses that he (Moses) is in the similitude of the Savior, not that Satan is. 

 

“So he has no particular body, but can appear in many forms.”

 

Once again let's be clear---Satan is a male spirit child of God. He has a spirit body of a man just as you and I do. He looks like a man in every sense of the word, and he cannot transform himself into anything else. He is what he is.

 

As to the first two scriptures you quoted I think it's clear that comparing Satan to a serpent or a lion is just a figurative expression, much like comparing the Savior to a lamb. 

 

As for the third scripture, "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."---this is merely an example of Satan posing as a messenger from God.

Remember, angels are nothing more than men acting as messengers for God; either men who have been resurrected, men who have died and not yet been resurrected, or men who have not yet been born. Men in each category have been described as angels in scripture, although it would be more accurate to refer to resurrected beings as "angels", and unembodied (those who have yet to be born) and disembodied (those who have been born and died) as "ministering spirits".  

When Satan wishes he can appear to individuals and pose as a messenger from God, and thus be referred to an "angel of light". Unless a man has the key to understanding the difference he can be deceived. (D&C 129)

 

I hope this clears a few things up. 

Edited by Capitalist_Oinker
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Yeah...ok, I agree he has teeth, just not physical ones. Gnashing is to grind and that would /could not occur with a being that is spirit...imo. I think the phrase is used to describe the incredible anger satan felt at being rejected in his exchange with Moses.

 

I have come to the opinion that our spirit functions very much as our body functions, and that it has similar senses and sensations. I strongly suspect that we will hug and kiss those we love when we meet them after our lives are done. Perhaps some sensory things, such as smell and sexual relations, do not have a spiritual expression; but it seems certain that vision and hearing, at least, occur in the spirit much as in the flesh. The accounts I have heard of others, both near to me and unknown to me, when in the spirit leads me to believe that in addition to sight and hearing, touch is very much a spiritual sense.

 

That said, I don't know what tooth-gnashing would look like to a spirit. I'm guessing that spirits do not age or wear out with use, as physical bodies do, and grinding one's teeth does seem to me to sort of imply a physically destructive act. But that may be simply a weakness of language or a deficiency of my own understanding.

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I have always thought the description in this oassage was a tad confusing.

"And it came to pass that Satan cried with a loud voice, with weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and he departed hence, even from the presence of Moses, that he beheld him not."

Anyone else? I have pretty much decided that this is just figurative and not reality as Satan doesn't have teeth to gnash.I

Other conclusions?

Just to put it in human terms so we can nderstand. Edited by Pa Pa
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