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I did initially do a quick google search, failing to find any sources I deem with the up most credibility, is why I asked.

 

OK, my bad. If you read D&C 87 and 3 Nephi chapter 21 both deal with internal conflict within the U.S. The post about starting in Chicago interested me because Chicago is where the commodities markets are (things such as food stuffs) and when the petro-dollar dies inflation/prices will shoot up. If you want to say that prophecy isn't legitimate then it doesn't take anything away from  D&C 87 and 3 Nephi chapter 21. The prophecy in an interview stated a second civil war would come, which is what D&C 87 and 3 Nephi chapter 21 describe.

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I'm thinking that perhaps you read too little. Since you apparently don't want to concede that the gentiles in America are Americans or that the native Americans are of Lamanite descent perhaps reading this will help your education: "A Mission to the Lamanites."

 

When asked about the Church’s official position on this matter by a writer, a Church spokesman said:

As to whether these were the first inhabitants…we don't have a position on that. Our scripture does not try to account for any other people who may have lived in the New World before, during or after the days of the Jaredites and the Nephites, and we don't have any official doctrine about who the descendants of the Nephites and the Jaredites are. Many Mormons believe that American Indians are descendants of the Lamanites [a division of the Nephites], but that's not in the scripture.[2]

 

 Stewart Reid, LDS Public Relations Staff, quoted by William J. Bennetta in The Textbook Letter (March-April 1997), published by The Textbook League

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Uh he went to teach the native Americans, I am familiar with the history. There is no conclusive proof that these are/were the historical ancestors of Lamen. Despite what Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdery called them

 

I assume you mean "descendants", not "ancestors". What would you take as "conclusive proof"?

 

If you are familiar with genealogy and/or genetic research, you know that the surviving ancestor (that is, an ancestor whose line does not terminate within a few generations) stands a very good chance of becoming an ancestor to all within a wide population in a pretty short time, maybe 20 or so generations, which corresponds to about 500 years. If any of the Lehites survived from 1500 years ago, not even considering possible widespread genetic spreading in the previous 1000 years, it becomes almost impossible to imagine a realistic scenario where the vast majority (likely all) living American aborigines do not have Lehi in their ancestry.

 

If Lehi existed (which we believe he did) and if his descendants survived into modern day (which we believe they did), it is pretty much unthinkable that Lehi would not be an ancestor of all or most surviving aborigines. So I am not understanding why this is an issue for you.

Edited by Vort
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When asked about the Church’s official position on this matter by a writer, a Church spokesman said:

As to whether these were the first inhabitants…we don't have a position on that. Our scripture does not try to account for any other people who may have lived in the New World before, during or after the days of the Jaredites and the Nephites, and we don't have any official doctrine about who the descendants of the Nephites and the Jaredites are. Many Mormons believe that American Indians are descendants of the Lamanites [a division of the Nephites], but that's not in the scripture.[2]

 

 Stewart Reid, LDS Public Relations Staff, quoted by William J. Bennetta in The Textbook Letter (March-April 1997), published by The Textbook League

 

And having not read "A Mission to the Lamanites." of course, Joseph Smith's directing the early missionaries of the church to preach the gospel to the Lamanites, they headed for the Oklahoma Territory where the native Americans were being settled and proselyted among the Seneca, Shawnee, and Delaware indians...wrongly in your view. 

 

Apparently the prophet Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Parley P. Pratt, Peter Whitmer Jr., Ziba Peterson, and Frederick G. Williams thought they were of Lamanite descent...hmm, go figure.

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Uh he went to teach the native Americans, I am familiar with the history. There is no conclusive proof that these are/were the historical ancestors of Lamen. Despite what Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdery called them

 

So the prophet Joseph was wrong and the prophet Spencer W. Kimball continued in error in your view...

 

President Spencer W. Kimball spoke and wrote much of today as the day of the Lamanite.

 

“The Lamanite people are increasing in numbers and influence. When the Navajos returned from Fort Sumner after a shameful and devastating captivity, there were only 9,000 of them left; now there are more than 100,000. There are nearly 130 million Lamanites worldwide. Their superstitions are giving way. They are becoming active politically and responsible in their communities wherever they dwell. Their employment and standard of living are increasing.

 

“The Church has been established among them to a degree, and it will continue to be established on an ever-increasing scale. There are now more than 350,000 Lamanite members of the Church. They attend their meetings faithfully. They have the priesthood among them. There are branch presidents, quorum leaders, bishops, stake presidents, high councilors, mission presidents, and leaders in all phases of the work among them. They are attending the temple and receiving the ordinances necessary for exaltation. They are intelligent and faithful; they are a great people and a blessed people. …

 

“And can we not exercise our faith to expand this work even further? Enos prayed a prayer of mighty faith and secured a promise from the Lord that the Lamanite would be preserved. How glorious it would be if a million Latter-day Saint families were on their knees daily asking in faith that the work among these their brethren would be hastened, that the doors might be opened.

 

Section 32 The First Mission among the Lamanites

Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, (2002), 66–67

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This is not the stance of the church on the subject

 

It is the stance of any believing Latter-day Saint who understands the basic principles of genetic inheritance. The Church doesn't take a stance on scientific issues; note the Church does not openly profess belief in cell theory or heliocentrism, either.

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It is the stance of any believing Latter-day Saint who understands the basic principles of genetic inheritance. The Church doesn't take a stance on scientific issues; note the Church does not openly profess belief in cell theory or heliocentrism, either.

I would hope that this is not true, how could anyone think in this day and age that Lehi is the genetic father or shares any genes with the American indian? Unless you think that Lehi got to the new world and he was all alone. I can assure you that this was not the case. There were people already here! Lots of them! Maybe some were there is some genetic line that can be traced to Lehi, but I assure it is NOT the Native American indians. This is a fallacy and geneticly disproven.

Edited by omegaseamaster75
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I would hope that this is not true, how could anyone think in this day and age that Lehi is the genetic father or shares any genes with the American indian? Unless you think that Lehi got to the new world and he was all alone. I can assure you that this was not the case. There were people already here! Lots of them! Maybe some were there is some genetic line that can be traced to Lehi, but I assure it is NOT the Native American indians. This is a fallacy and geneticly disproven.

 

Omegaseamaster, I am 100% sure you have not the slightest idea of what you are talking about. You have no clue what is involved in genetic inheritance or how a small population's genes might propagate through a large existing population. You are embarrassing yourself. You need to stop, ask to have things explained to you, and then pay close attention to the explanation.

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I would hope that this is not true, how could anyone think in this day and age that Lehi is the genetic father or shares any genes with the American indian? Unless you think that Lehi got to the new world and he was all alone. I can assure you that this was not the case. There were people already here! Lots of them! Maybe some were there is some genetic line that can be traced to Lehi, but I assure it is NOT the Native American indians. This is a fallacy and geneticly disproven.

 

Perhaps you should read through this carefully: https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng

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This video sheds some interesting light on the mysterious genetic marker X found to exist in the native americans ranging from small percentages around 3% and having high concentrations up to 50%. The cool thing of course is that this genetic marker is thought to be from the near east... I think you can see how this goes along with the Book of Mormon narrative.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3_yZXNdpRo4

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Perhaps you should read through this carefully: https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng

Uh yeah so basically Im right, we are unable to identify who the lamanites actually are, we most certainly cannot say that they are the native Americans, as according to VORT is that widely accepted belief. My whole point is exactly what was said inthe article we don't know. when someone gets on and says that the opening of the boarders is the fulfillment of some prophecy regarding the lamanites it's just not true because we just don't know.

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I am sure that you 100% don't know what ur talking about.

 

You are mistaken, omegaseamaster75. I have an educational background in genetics and bioengineering. I am no expert, but I know plenty enough to understand how genetic material propagates from a small group through an existing population. You appear to have no clue what is going on.

 

Seriously, you should ask someone to explain it to you, and then listen very carefully when they do. Blithely asserting your wrong opinion merely displays your ignorance of the topic.

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Uh yeah so basically Im right, we are unable to identify who the lamanites actually are, we most certainly cannot say that they are the native Americans, as according to VORT is that widely accepted belief. My whole point is exactly what was said inthe article we don't know. when someone gets on and says that the opening of the boarders is the fulfillment of some prophecy regarding the lamanites it's just not true because we just don't know.

 

Okay, omegaseamaster75. Time to demonstrate your iron grasp of the subject.

 

Lehi came to the Americas about 2600 years ago. Let us assume his descendants mixed with the local existing aboriginal populations. Please explain what genetic markers, exactly, we should look for and realistically expect to find in order to establish Lehi's existence.

 

Clearly, there are any number of markers that, if they were to show up, might cause us to do a double-take and say, "Wow! Looks like Jewish blood!" But that is not the question. The question is: If a small group of undefined ancestry mixed in with a large existing group 2600 years ago, what markers should we EXPECT to find from said small group?

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It's hard to say it is disproven, because lack of evidence is not necessarily evidence of lack. You are right in asserting that one need not immediately accept lehi as the principal, and only, ancestor of the american indians, since evidence for that view is scant, if you are basing it on a need for rigorous evidence. I don't think that is what Vort is saying though.

Vort is right in that there is reasonable enough reasons [such as DNA propagation as he mentions] (and maybe preliminary evidence) for the typical faith based view.
 
Oh something I stumbled on quiet awhile ago (non-lds sources, if it makes any difference),
There are genetic markers in, if I remember right, in the Cherokee tribe that would be expected in those of middle eastern decent (The pool of people is actually much more vast than just middle east, but around that area). Cool BOM is True! oh wait, However scientists have been unable to identify if this is the result of interbreeding with old world immigrants. They have gotten pretty far back but not quite far enough for any firm conclusion of this curiosity. And to confound things further, they have found DNA in the ancient ancestors who lived in the Americas (probably before lehi's time) that may have middle eastern decent.

It is also interesting to note many of the tribes traditions state that they came from the east. Lot's of water in the east. lol hehe :)

Edited by Crypto
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there is linguistic and archaeological evidence of Phoenician, Roman, Jewish, Chinese, Irish,Viking (and perhaps other) visitors/settlers in the new world before Columbus.

 

There is evidence in the Book of Mormon that there were more people involved than the Lehities and Mulekites.

 

There division in the BoM of the people into Nephites and Lamanites falls along political/religious lines with the descendants of Lehi being the ruling class.

 

The Lamanites to whom the Savior addressed 3 Ne. 21 were the descendants of the political line [ie: ALL people opposed to and] who had rejected and destroyed the Nephite religious/political line.

 

As for the gentiles being Americans

 

Mark E. Petersen

 

"The hand of oppression had to be removed from America. The people who lived here must be set up as a free people. IT WAS DONE BY ACT OF THE FATHER. But a human agent was required as in all other things. Washington was an agent of heaven in bringing about His work. He realized it and knew that God was fighting his battles for him. So in humility and gratitude he thanked heaven repeatedly for it.

 

"Why was America set up as a free nation? In the words of the Savior, 'that these things [meaning the Gospel as recorded in the Book of Mormon] might come forth from them [the Gentiles in America who set up the nation] unto a remnant of your seed [the descendants of Lehi] that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled which he hath covenanted with his people, O house of Israel.'

 

"Thus we see Washington in his true perspective. As a man of God he was raised up to be the agent through whom the battles of freedom would be fought, and whom God would assist in obtaining the victory." (The Way to Peace, pp. 30-31)

 

 

Brigham Young

 

"There is not another nation under heaven but this, in whose midst the Book of Mormon could have been brought forth. The Lord has been operating for centuries to prepare the way for the coming forth of the contents of that Book from the bowels of the earth...It was the Lord who directed the discovery of this land to the nations of the old world, and its settlement, and the war for independence, and the final victory of the colonies, and the unprecedented prosperity of the American nation, up to the calling of Joseph the Prophet. The Lord has dictated and directed the whole of this, for the bringing forth, and establishing of his Kingdom in the last days." (Journal of Discourses, 11:17 as taken from Latter-day Commentary on the Book of Mormon compiled by K. Douglas Bassett, p. 444-5)

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I would hope that this is not true, how could anyone think in this day and age that Lehi is the genetic father or shares any genes with the American indian? Unless you think that Lehi got to the new world and he was all alone. I can assure you that this was not the case. There were people already here! Lots of them! Maybe some were there is some genetic line that can be traced to Lehi, but I assure it is NOT the Native American indians. This is a fallacy and geneticly disproven.

 

All I know is that given that humans share something like 96% of their DNA (i.e. "genes") with chimpanzees, it seems sort of odd to argue that Lehi must not share any genes with Native Americans. 

 

And given that, assuming just three generations per century and not adjusting for intermarriage between family lines, a native American (or anyone else) living today would have two to the seventy-eighth power ancestors alive around 600 BC (that's 302,231,454,903,657,293,676,544 ancestors--a number that I believe is actually exponentially higher than the total number of humans who have ever lived on the earth)--why can't Lehi be one of those 302 million trillion theoretical ancestors from whom a Native American is descended?

 

Forgive me, but it's almost like you want the Book of Mormon to be historically flawed.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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(Um, omaga?  vort is kind of right here.  You should do more reading...  This stuff has been available for a decade or longer...)

 

DNA and the Book of Mormon: A Phylogenetic Perspective - Michael F. Whiting
 
Does DNA Evidence Refute the Authenticity of the Book of Mormon? - Michael F. Whiting
 
When Lehi's Party Arrived in the Land, Did They Find Others There? - John L. Sorenson
 
Nephi's Neighbors: Book of Mormon Peoples and Pre-Columbian Populations. - Matthew Roper
Edited by NeuroTypical
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And given that, assuming just three generations per century and not adjusting for intermarriage between family lines, a native American (or anyone else) living today would have two to the seventy-eighth power ancestors alive around 600 BC (that's 302,231,454,903,657,293,676,544 ancestors--a number that I believe is actually exponentially higher than the total number of humans who have ever lived on the earth)--why can't Lehi be one of those three hundred two million trillion theoretical ancestors from whom a Native American is descended?

 

I'm happy to see that someone grasps this. JAG, you have restored my faith in humanity.

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