David13 Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 All the dna study that has been done, with genetics and genes and all that, and they never have found any homosexual gene at all.Learned behavior, not born behavior at all.dc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 All the dna study that has been done, with genetics and genes and all that, and they never have found any homosexual gene at all.Learned behavior, not born behavior at all.dc People keep on saying this, but the fact of the matter is, my classmate through elementary and high school played with the girls, liked girl things, and did girl things in the Catholic School in the Philippines since I met him in first grade. He comes from a devout Catholic family with a non-gay brother in a very conservative country where the subject of sex is so taboo that buying a condom is like buying an x-rated movie - you have to know which stores have the back room where they sell you one. So, who did he learn this from? He now lives in London as a girl with a live-in partner to the dismay of his deeply religious Catholic family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 anatess, with all due respect, you can't possibly know what this person, classmate or not, was and was not exposed to throughout his life to draw the concrete conclusion you seem to be drawing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) anatess, with all due respect, you can't possibly know what this person, classmate or not, was and was not exposed to throughout his life to draw the concrete conclusion you seem to be drawing. For his first 6 years of life? We've been friends since first grade until now and my family got close to his family. I come from a small town where families are clannish. It's completely different from the regular US city where families are not close - my husband can't even name his first cousins, let alone the cousins of his friends. In my town, when you're playing with the same kids for a while, the families end up becoming friends too because it's not just a social connection - this becomes part of the people that is your support system. Did I tell you about my classmate from elementary and high school who I've lost contact with after school that my brother who is a neurologist treated her cousin's stroke for free because he considered him "family"? There's no health insurance/welfare/what-have-you in my town... your family (including those you are not blood or marriage related to) is your welfare system. In any case, what could have happened (that is so secret even my family wouldn't know it) in his first 6 years of life that changed the course if his entire life growing up as a devout Catholic in a Catholic family in a Catholic town going to a Catholic school with Catholic friends? Anyway, you know those TV shows with a gay guy in it? The gay guys always act like girly-girls as a stereotype? That's my classmate since I've known him when he was only 6 years old. In his Catholic life, the odds are drastically against him being gay. Not only that, I have a nephew who we knew was different growing up - same as my classmate, they just didn't conform to the cultural gender indicators - he falls with the TV gay stereotype... my nephews/nieces called him gay even as they were kids. Anyway, this nephew moved to Canada - he wears make-up and girly outfits now but no boyfriends. He's had many an argument with his dad, his dad just basically gave up on it. Not too long ago, we called them gay when we're teasing them but we don't really consider them gay unless they have gay sex... nowadays, if you're a guy who is attracted to another guy, you're gay - even if you don't do anything about it. My family has been talking about things (I'm visiting family right now) and we were just talking about many of my cousins/nieces/nephews/aunts/uncles who stayed single all their lives or are still single now in their middle age and wondered how many of them are gay that just never said anything about it... we have quite a number of single people past 35 years old in my family. My husband's best friend is different - he is my college classmate and we were in several projects together. He never showed any gender discrepancies. Even today, he still acts male through and through. We only found out he was gay because when we made a surprise visit to his condo, his live-in boyfriend (who he has told us was his room-mate but we've never met before) opened the door and we saw pictures of them in lovey poses on the fireplace (we've been to their place many times and those pictures were always put away). The boyfriend is the girl in that relationship - he doesn't wear girl clothes but he acts like a woman - he is girly-girl kinda like the blonde guy on Queer Eye for a Straight Guy show. I'm a fairly logical person. I know too many boys who I know acted like girls since they were kids express attraction to boys as they go into their teen-age years. In my town - these guys have a niche - they run beauty salons and we even have an annual Gay Beauty contest (like Ms. Universe) on the plaza across from the Catholic Church. But, these guys are still required to not have sex before marriage... and they can either marry or become priests and declare a vow of celibacy - both considered highly spiritual callings with lots of high regard attached to it in my town. But yeah, these guys' heads get flushed down toilets in the Catholic School if they ever express attraction to some guy. Kids can be quite brutal. But, I'm not sure if this discussion goes with the thread topic - I guess it can with the Catholic background. Edited July 13, 2015 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) Uhm... yes I can. No. You can't. Even if you were with this person every moment of every day (impossible with anyone) you still cannot know what entered into their mind, what they saw, heard, etc. You cannot know, and the arrogance that you think you can is a bit astounding. Edited July 13, 2015 by The Folk Prophet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) No. You can't. Even if you were with this person every moment of every day (impossible with anyone) you still cannot know what entered into their mind, what they saw, heard, etc. You cannot know, and the arrogance that you think you can is a bit astounding. Upon second reading, that did sound arrogant which was not what I wanted to portray, so I edited my post. Read it through again, if you have the time, and let's discuss. It's something that intrigues me. Edited July 13, 2015 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightSG Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 Anyway, you know those TV shows with a gay guy in it? The gay guys always act like girly-girls as a stereotype? And yet, I dress better than almost every gay man I ever met, (One notable exception was the handiest coworker I ever had: he would always text me with who had the best sales on the stuff I liked. The guy was also built like Charles Atlas and somewhat over 6'4"; I could hang out at the bar with him and let him lure in women then hand them off to me. No competition for the clothes or the girls.) and can coordinate suit separates, shirts, ties and pocket square where most of them can't coordinate a t-shirt and socks. Seems odd that the stereotype that fits so well in other areas just crashes and burns here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 And yet, I dress better than almost every gay man I ever met, (One notable exception was the handiest coworker I ever had: he would always text me with who had the best sales on the stuff I liked. The guy was also built like Charles Atlas and somewhat over 6'4"; I could hang out at the bar with him and let him lure in women then hand them off to me. No competition for the clothes or the girls.) and can coordinate suit separates, shirts, ties and pocket square where most of them can't coordinate a t-shirt and socks. Seems odd that the stereotype that fits so well in other areas just crashes and burns here. But then, good dress sense is not what makes one a girly-girl. My husband has better dress sense than me - he used to be a model - yet, there is no way you can mistake him for a girly-girl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 This I believe is a very problematic thread. There are many issues being discussed and I am not sure what to respond to because they all distract from the original premise which has to do with what I see as conflicting gospel principles – Which is in essence the conflict between mankind having free will and choice (agency) and the possibility of a G-d in control (determinism – the future known and determined). PrisonChaplin brings up a very important consideration – individual liberty verses social responsibilities. When I reference “social responsibilities”, I am talking about responsibilities established by social institutions to which individuals belong. It is the basic problem of law and how laws are established in society. The question is about establishing law and order in a free society – how are laws established and maintained. I agree with PC that we are headed down a path of personal liberty and religious freedom that is very full of conflicts in freedoms and responsibilities. In particular I believe we are creating problems that endanger the future of the human race – as much as any threat that has ever existed (including things such as war or environmental distraction). Capitalist Oinker brought up a very important religious concept – and I do not think PrisonChaplin has ever grapeseed the importance or significance of what is involved in this particular question. This is wrapped up in the idea that man will be like the G-ds – knowing good from evil. I would submit that anyone that believes that man should not be or become like G-d – so believes because they have a faulty understanding of the nature of G-d. It is basic to the conflict between good and evil and realizing what is good and what is evil. It is interesting to me that as basic as religion is – we cannot determine on religious grounds; if being like G-d is a good thing or an evil thing. There is also the debate between Anatess and the Folk Prophet. This is part of a great debate between intelligence – free will and choices – and genetics and things a person cannot choose. Are we an intelligent species with enough intelligence to determine – or that intelligence has the ability to determine a person’s sexual behavior? Or even a person’s sex? Obviously this is not a physical determination – there is little to argue about there – it is all about emotional determination. To this discussion I would add that some years ago it was discovered that the brain of homosexuals was different than the brain of heterosexuals. But then it was discovered that learned behaviors cause the human brain to rewire itself and thus make itself “different”. It was also discovered that the area of the brain that was different in homosexuals was that area of the brain that is different because of learned (or acquired) behaviors. All of a sudden we do not talk about why homosexual brains are different. The argument is not about a problem or a solution – it is about what is wanted and desired in society by a small minority – regardless of reality or the harm it can cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightSG Posted July 13, 2015 Report Share Posted July 13, 2015 But then, good dress sense is not what makes one a girly-girl. My husband has better dress sense than me - he used to be a model - yet, there is no way you can mistake him for a girly-girl. Yeah, I'd never make it as a woman. For one thing, I'd have to stop putting off fixing the toilet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Upon second reading, that did sound arrogant which was not what I wanted to portray, so I edited my post. Read it through again, if you have the time, and let's discuss. It's something that intrigues me. After my post I worried I was too harsh. I appreciate that you you didn't take it badly. But I stand by my original comment: you can't possibly know what this person, classmate or not, was and was not exposed to throughout his life to draw the concrete conclusion you seem to be drawing. What happened in the first six years of his life? Was their hidden abuse? Was there influential entertainment (along the lines of television)? Did getting teased affect his psyche in a different way than it might another? Etc., etc., etc... I mean, even if you were with them 24 hours a day from the moment they were born you still wouldn't know what was going through their mind, how they interpreted things, how they were influenced, etc., etc... And presuming that you were not in any way close to being with them that often, you can't even really know all what they were and were not exposed to. A claim that just because we know someone who, against what seemed likely, acted in opposition to their gender does not give any weight to the claim that they were born that way whatsoever. To be clear, I'm not arguing that no one is naturally inclined with traits opposite their gender. All I'm saying is that anecdotal arguments akin to what you have shared do not support the reality of this one way or another, and that there is a real problem with the anecdotal approach to this subject being treated as viable factual support behind what it is and is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 After my post I worried I was too harsh. I appreciate that you you didn't take it badly. But I stand by my original comment: you can't possibly know what this person, classmate or not, was and was not exposed to throughout his life to draw the concrete conclusion you seem to be drawing. What happened in the first six years of his life? Was their hidden abuse? Was there influential entertainment (along the lines of television)? Did getting teased affect his psyche in a different way than it might another? Etc., etc., etc... I mean, even if you were with them 24 hours a day from the moment they were born you still wouldn't know what was going through their mind, how they interpreted things, how they were influenced, etc., etc... And presuming that you were not in any way close to being with them that often, you can't even really know all what they were and were not exposed to. A claim that just because we know someone who, against what seemed likely, acted in opposition to their gender does not give any weight to the claim that they were born that way whatsoever. To be clear, I'm not arguing that no one is naturally inclined with traits opposite their gender. All I'm saying is that anecdotal arguments akin to what you have shared do not support the reality of this one way or another, and that there is a real problem with the anecdotal approach to this subject being treated as viable factual support behind what it is and is not. Just as a side note - children that are victims of sexual abuse tend to adopt abusive (predatory) sexual behaviors - where as children that are victims of physical abuse seldom become physically abusive towards others and are more likely to become repeated abused themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Yeah, I'd never make it as a woman. For one thing, I'd have to stop putting off fixing the toilet. Really? Do you find that women fix the toilet sooner? My experience has been much different... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightSG Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Really? Do you find that women fix the toilet sooner? My experience has been much different... Harder for them to use the sink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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