Need advice, how to trust and forgive

[Latter-Day Marriage]

When it comes to mental illnesses and at least some addictions, people tend to think of them as 'software problems' where a person can just decide to not be like that any longer.  In reality there is often a 'hardware problem' where the person's ability to control that aspect of their life is dysfunctional.  It's like telling somebody with fever to just chill out or a blind person to look harder.

[Vort]

When it comes to mental illnesses and at least some addictions, people tend to think of them as 'software problems' where a person can just decide to not be like that any longer.  In reality there is often a 'hardware problem' where the person's ability to control that aspect of their life is dysfunctional.  It's like telling somebody with fever to just chill out or a blind person to look harder.

 

Note that wetware does not have a hard distinction between software and hardware. The brain rewires itself based on its input, so that today's software becomes tomorrow's hardware. I am convinced that many (most, perhaps almost all) emotional problems are rooted in people's bad decisions or negative upbringing. That belief may not be especially helpful when a person is struggling to overcome some emotional problems that "hey, it's ultimately your own doing". But the belief is very highly useful when you're at the beginning of such problems, to know that you should avoid going down some path because it may well lead to some real ugliness in the future.

[clwnuke]

Amen to the mental illness comments. As I mentioned, I grew up thinking that every troubled person could just pick themselves up by their bootstraps. Then my firstborn wonderchild who entered BYU on a full scholarship at 15 years old gets two years into college with straight A's and I receive a call from his roommates telling me something is wrong. We arrived at college to find a completely different person - adolescent onset depression entered my life through my son. I foolishly tried to talk him through getting his act together for almost two years growing increasingly frustrated with his "lazy" and "disingenuous" efforts to fix his problems. 

 

Then, one of my teenage nieces who was living with our family after having been on the streets, and whose behavior was a constant up and down from playful kid to wicked satan child, suddenly has a seizure. My older brother had epilepsy so I was very familiar with how to deal with this. We took her to the doctor the next week and he prescribed Lamictal for her seizures. She starts taking it daily and guess what happens?  Her behavior levels out like a perfect child. It turns out she is bi-polar. A light bulb went off in my head! Mental illness is very, very real. There are many forms of mental illness, but the common characteristic is that good information goes in, does not get processed properly, and undesirable behaviors and decisions result.

 

Since that time I have had to change my whole philosophy on how to work with God's children. The brain has many different channels for processing information. These channels can operate at the same time and is the source of much of our personal hypocrisy. When it comes to viewing human sexual behavior (most of which is fake acting) the brain's multiple channels are affected on many levels. One channel may sincerely desire to live a chaste life and to be faithful to one's spouse, while a different brain channel is relentlessly wanting to stimulate itself with pornography, and through it all hormones are inhibiting clear thinking as they are rightly designed to do.

 

The processes are simultaneous and result in tremendous guilt and shame since we have been taught that "good" people don't desire to view these images. Isn't this the typical situation for couples dealing with pornography?  One spouse feeling pain and frustration due to a pornography habit they can't shake, and the other spouse working hard every day to "make sure" that the offending spouse feels incredible pain and frustration for their sins. It's a recipe for failure all around - just as my two years of trying to change my son's depression was also a complete and utter failure.

 

My son is doing better now, but the real success story is how I've changed. How I've stopped wanting to be the judge of those around me and how I now love them no matter what their challenges have been. Personally I don't care about a person's sins anymore. I care about helping them reach a happier state and I adapt my work to their level. In the process I'm the one who benefits the most. I also see my own spouse in a much more loving way now. We see ourselves as a much more wonderful couple now - even with all of our personal flaws and weaknesses.

 

Is it possible to completely love a viewer of pornography as you work toward a solution? Of course it is. Just as it is possible to completely love somebody who recklessly participates in sexual relations outside of marriage. But it does take a whole new loving approach to the problem.

Edited August 26, 2015 by clwnuke

[yjacket]

I am convinced that many (most, perhaps almost all) emotional problems are rooted in people's bad decisions or negative upbringing.

 

I 100% agree. I once had a h.s. teacher who had literally been institutionalized.  She would always tell us that she got out simply because one day she decided not to be crazy. We seriously under-estimate the capacity of the human mind to go crazy and to simply not be crazy.

 

Personally, I think a lot of it has to do with simply not growing up.  If one took a look at a 2-3 year old, they are probably the most bi-polar, mentally unstable, irrational mentally ill human beings. They talk and one moment they are happy and playful, the next moment they throw a massive fit because they didn't get their way.  They haven't figured out that a) the world doesn't revolve around them and b) they need to be responsible.

 

Humans are smarter than dogs, yet you don't give dogs all sorts of psychological medicines if they misbehave. Given that one cannot test for "chemical imbalance", I think most of the psychotropic drugs is just a bunch of absolute bull.  I have personal experience with mental illness and more than anything else the thing that helps solve it is rather old-fashioned medicine; it's called realizing you need to get your crap together and be responsible.

 

It doesn't mean talking to someone isn't helpful-we all need friends and people that understand us, but it doesn't require a "mental health" professional to get help from.  It requires someone who you can trust.  It's the old saying the best advice you can get is from your barber.  

 

I have plenty of sympathy for those who suffer from mental issues; it is horrible-I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But I have serious issues with the psychiatrists

[Latter-Day Marriage]

The brain rewires itself based on its input, so that today's software becomes tomorrow's hardware. I am convinced that many (most, perhaps almost all) emotional problems are rooted in people's bad decisions or negative upbringing.

 

 

And what happens when that ability to rewire itself is impaired? You are making the mistake of thinking in terms of a what a normally functioning brain does.  My two oldest kids have mental health issues and I can assure you it has nothing to do with decisions or upbringing.  Both of them were raised with love and kindness in a gospel home, both of them showed symptoms at a very early age.  My daughter has anxiety disorder and it was clear from day one that she was a deeply worried baby.  Even when I gave her a name and blessing I was prompted to reassure her that things were OK. 

A person's decisions or upbringing can make a mental health issue worse than it has to be, or damage a healthy mind, but once in that state you can't cure it by making good decisions.  Often those bad decisions are a symptom of the mental health issue, not the cause.  My oldest daughter is fully active in the church, just got her endowments, has her own apartment and is getting straight A's in college. She put her papers in to serve a mission but mental health condition lead to her being denied.  She expected that but hoped she would get to go.  She has to control her environment and avoid the kinds of things she knows will trigger her anxieties.  Without doing that and having proper treatment she would not be able to do what she is doing no matter what else is in her favor.

 

[Latter-Day Marriage]

I 100% agree. I once had a h.s. teacher who had literally been institutionalized.  She would always tell us that she got out simply because one day she decided not to be crazy. We seriously under-estimate the capacity of the human mind to go crazy and to simply not be crazy.

 

If you are talking about a mind that functions normally, yes, but a mind that doesn't have normal function due to genetics or damage is a whole different story.  A sighted person can pretend to be blind and then decided to stop doing that, but a blind person can't just decide to see.

[yjacket]

If you are talking about a mind that functions normally, yes, but a mind that doesn't have normal function due to genetics or damage is a whole different story.

I definitely agree.

 

But one always has to keep in mind, that even with all our modern day science-we really don't have a clue as to how the mind really works. If one can measure the mind being damaged with an MRI then yes, if one can take a measurement about low seratonin, then yes; otherwise the answer is: is the brain really damaged? is genetics really at fault?

 

So much of how we are is determined in the first 10 years of our life. Just raising a child with love and kindness isn't enough. It must be not just love but discipline. Because discipline is a higher manifestation of love.  "Love" says, I accept you as you are.  Discipline says, I love you regardless of what you do, but I demand you act differently.

 

Love and kindness says when a child misbehaves you talk to them, tell them it isn't nice, tell them to say they are sorry, etc. Discipline states that when a child misbehaves they know that in no uncertain terms that their behavior is not acceptable will not be tolerated and until they can figure it out on their own they will receive a very harsh punishment.

 

If a child is overly anxious but their behavior isn't causing any real problems to others then it's not really a cause for major concern-we all have life struggles and we are all different.

Edited August 27, 2015 by yjacket

[Guest]

If you are talking about a mind that functions normally, yes, but a mind that doesn't have normal function due to genetics or damage is a whole different story.  A sighted person can pretend to be blind and then decided to stop doing that, but a blind person can't just decide to see.

 

No, but a blind person can decide that his blindness is not going to deter him from his goal.

 

I know what you're talking about (damage).  I have IED and it is not something I can "fix".  BUT, it is something I can MANAGE.  Especially with my husband's support.  I decided not to take meds because I know what my IED does, I can feel its onset, I know what happens to me, and I know what damage it does to me and everyone around me.  Taking meds may help me manage IED but it may produce other traits that I can't manage.  It's a crap shoot cocktail.  So, I would rather manage the IED unaided by meds by very very tight control of my emotional responses to stimuli before the IED gets triggered.  It's been working - as in, the incidences are much rarer, not gone altogether.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

I definitely agree.

 

But one always has to keep in mind, that even with all our modern day science-we really don't have a clue as to how the mind really works. If one can measure the mind being damaged with an MRI then yes, if one can take a measurement about low seratonin, then yes; otherwise the answer is: is the brain really damaged? is genetics really at fault?

 

So much of how we are is determined in the first 10 years of our life. Just raising a child with love and kindness isn't enough. It must be not just love but discipline. Because discipline is a higher manifestation of love.  "Love" says, I accept you as you are.  Discipline says, I love you regardless of what you do, but I demand you act differently.

 

Love and kindness says when a child misbehaves you talk to them, tell them it isn't nice, tell them to say they are sorry, etc. Discipline states that when a child misbehaves they know that in no uncertain terms that their behavior is not acceptable will not be tolerated and until they can figure it out on their own they will receive a very harsh punishment.

 

If a child is overly anxious but their behavior isn't causing any real problems to others then it's not really a cause for major concern-we all have life struggles and we are all different.

Sadly it is true that treating mental health issues (and even diagnosing them correctly) is more art than science these days, but that doesn't mean mental health issues are not real or that medicine has nothing to offer.  I know it is easy for people who have no experience with things like this to not understand and think in terms of somebody who has a normally functioning mind.  I used to think that way too and it doesn't help.

 

There is a huge difference between mental health issues and the problems that would arise from too much or too little discipline.  It is narrow minded and judgmental and wrong to think somebody's parents or some trauma or mistreatment must always be to blame in some way for a child's mental illness. 

 

Treating somebody with a mental health issue as if they just need to learn to deal with life and control themselves often is very counterproductive.  You wind up holding them to a standard they are not able to live up to and punishing them for showing symptoms of their condition.  When we didn't know he had a mental health issue, that is what we did and it made it worse.  Would it help somebody to get over a cold to spank them, or send them to their room until they learn to make their nose stop running?  You can't demand somebody cease a panic attack, or demand they stop being depressed, or manic, or delusional.  Punishing somebody for cutting themselves is not helpful. Parents like to think they can shape their children, and mental health issues take a lot of that away from a parent which is part of what makes it so scary.  When our son first had to be hospitalized for being delusional they tested him for street drugs and it came back clean and we were relieved at that.  Sometimes I wish it was only a drug problem, that is something that could be overcome and ended, mental health issues are usually for life.

In our case there is a family history of mental health issues on my wife's side.  Shame over the stigma kept that history hidden even from her parents until our kids illnesses made us look back at her ancestor's history.  Her brother's daughter has similar struggles.  I hope you never have to fear that your 15 year old son is so delusional that  he will never be able to have a rational conversation with you ever again.  Or have your daughter in the grips of a panic attack that makes her a danger to herself and others.  I thank God that they were able to find effective treatments. 

 

Edited August 29, 2015 by Latter-Day Marriage

[yjacket]

When our son first had to be hospitalized for being delusional they tested him for street drugs and it came back clean and we were relieved at that.  Sometimes I wish it was only a drug problem, that is something that could be overcome and ended, mental health issues are usually for life.

 

Clearly, there are plenty of examples where things like being delusional, etc clearly need help from professionals. There is no doubt for things of that nature.

 

As a rule, it is my belief that mental illness in general is overdiagnosed and is more preventable than most people realize.

The first 5 years of a child's life is so formative, take a dash of their spirit, a pinch of genetics and a helping of environment (experience) and we get who we are. Are there cases where the genetics alone cause someone to be mentally ill-yeah absolutely.  Are there cases where the combination of environment, their decisions and genetics cause mental illness, yes that too.

 

When and where that line is drawn-I don't know-but I believe it is way more preventable than science wants us to believe.

 

You can't demand somebody cease a panic attack, or demand they stop being depressed, or manic, or delusional.

 

 No you can't demand someone stop being depressed, but many times being depressed is a symptom of larger issues. For example, a very sensitive child is more likely to be depressed if a parent is constantly nagging and harping on them (especially a small child). Because they are very sensitive to what people tell them, if they are told to pick up their toys and then every 2 min. someone brow-beats them, they can have a tendency to get more down on themselves and become depressed. Do that for years on end and they have a bad combination of a)being a slacker and b)being depressed.  The solution to that particular problem is to teach them how to be responsible without nagging, so they can feel better about themselves.

 

Obviously not everything is so easy-but we really don't fully comprehend the human mind and in many ways to just say genetics every time I think is a very easy way out of a very complex situation.

Edited August 29, 2015 by yjacket

[Latter-Day Marriage]

 No you can't demand someone stop being depressed, but many times being depressed is a symptom of larger issues. For example, a very sensitive child is more likely to be depressed if a parent is constantly nagging and harping on them (especially a small child). Because they are very sensitive to what people tell them, if they are told to pick up their toys and then every 2 min. someone brow-beats them, they can have a tendency to get more down on themselves and become depressed. Do that for years on end and they have a bad combination of a)being a slacker and b)being depressed.  The solution to that particular problem is to teach them how to be responsible without nagging, so they can feel better about themselves.

 

 

There is a big difference between the feeling of depression which is a natural and normal  emotional response to certain kinds of events (and yes, some are more sensitive than others), psychological problems resulting from early life experiences (which can be addressed through counseling), and mental illnesses like clinical depression which is a malfunction of the mind itself (ie: a hardware issue).  

It would take an extremely traumatic event like childhood sexual abuse to alter a healthy brain's chemistry to the point of triggering clinical depression.  Drug usage (especially by teens whose brains are still developing), genetics, stroke, head injury etc. can cause it too.  Sadly, many mentally ill people turn to street drugs as a means of self medication and just make their lives worse.  But whatever the cause, treating clinical depression as if it is just an emotional  or psychological state rather than a mental illness is not going to help.

Diagnosis and treatment are more an art than science, and I agree there is a tendency to over diagnose and over prescribe.  Often emotional states are treated as if they were an illness.  Better too far in that direction than too far in the other direction I say.  I hope someday the science will get more precise.  I can easily see how in ages past mental illness was seen as demonic possession, and sometimes I wonder if there is a grain of truth in that.

[Bee Sweet]

So much good advice has been given to you.

 

I agree that we sometimes feel so sorry for ourselves, we forget the sinner is really the one in need. BUT, it seems

you are not getting a lot of compassion here.

 

Women usually set the spiritual standard in the home.( not always but its been my experience that they usually do.) Of course you are hurt and fighting for standards of the gospel in your home. The addiction term seems to be an umbrella to cover

all sin. He knows right from wrong. He is hurting his wife deeply, causing a huge crack in the foundation of the marriage. He has children in the home, where does his loyalty lie? Stay off the computer, think of someone else's needs, stop being selfish. He can reprogram his brain, he just has to want to.

 

I am so sorry you are going through this, you are not alone. Pray for yourself, turn you name into the Temple, the Lord will shore you up. Your husband isn't the only one suffering, you are suffering because of his sin. I doubt very seriously that it is because of a problem in your marriage.