Conversion of jews

[Sunday21]

My Book of Mormon manual asserts that there will be a mass conversion of Jews before the Jews are gathered back to Israel. Has anyone else heard anything about this? Do you feel this assertion to be correct? Do you feel that Jews will be converted in the future? Do you think this will happen before the Savior returns? Do you feel that the number of Jews returning to Israel will dramatically increase at some point? Can anyone suggest some references? Thank you.

[Traveler]

My Book of Mormon manual asserts that there will be a mass conversion of Jews before the Jews are gathered back to Israel. Has anyone else heard anything about this? Do you feel this assertion to be correct? Do you feel that Jews will be converted in the future? Do you think this will happen before the Savior returns? Do you feel that the number of Jews returning to Israel will dramatically increase at some point? Can anyone suggest some references? Thank you.

What manual? (published by whom and date) - I would like to look up this reference.

 

It has been my understanding that the Jews will not be converted in mass that Jesus is the Messiah until Christ appears to them at his second coming and explains where his scars (hands and feet) came from.

[Sunday21]

Book of Mormon Student Manual religion 121-122, 2009 by intellectual reserve. Published by the church no isbn number

Pg 70. " 2 nephi 10: 6-8. The scattering and gathering of Isreal is first spiritual and then physical" Bruce r mcconkie clarified the reasons the scattering and gathering of the tribes of Isreal are first spiritual and second physical. Reference is " a new witness for the articles of faith (1985, 515). Perhaps this is a detail which is no longer believed to be true? Is a fairly old manual.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Sunday21

[Sunday21]

If this statement is no longer considered true than I am sad. I was holding on to the need to convert the Jews before the 2nd coming as a sign that the coming was some time away. Now what is left to fulfill? A temple built in Jerusalem. I think we have to start from scratch because we promised the Israeli government that the educational building was just that an educational building. So we need a temple in ...iindependace Missouri? A few other meetings I won't describe in this public forum. But nothing that can't be done fairly quickly. Hopefully someone can think of something else that might require some time. How about the records of the lost 10 tribes? No sign of those so far. But perhaps the records have arrived, some histories of the scattered? And we have not noticed? any big, time consuming signs that have not been fulfilled? Am hoping for something. How about a highway on the water from the north - although perhaps this is the thawing of the northwest passage?

Edited August 28, 2015 by Sunday21

[Latter Days Guy]

Aren't the two witnesses in Revelations 11 sent to convert the Jews to faith in Christ?

[The Folk Prophet]

On 8/28/2015 at 6:10 PM, Sunday21 said:

Book of Mormon Student Manual religion 121-122, 2009 by intellectual reserve. Published by the church no isbn number

Pg 70. " 2 nephi 10: 6-8. The scattering and gathering of Isreal is first spiritual and then physical" Bruce r mcconkie clarified the reasons the scattering and gathering of the tribes of Isreal are first spiritual and second physical. Reference is " a new witness for the articles of faith (1985, 515). Perhaps this is a detail which is no longer believed to be true? Is a fairly old manual.

 

I don't see anything about "Jews" there. Are you not of the tribe of Ephraim or some such? Are you not Israel? I know I am. I know I and my family and all the Saints who I deal with are. I know we are gathered spiritually first. I don't see the issue.

Edited February 17, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[The Folk Prophet]

If this statement is no longer considered true than I am sad. I was holding on to the need to convert the Jews before the 2nd coming as a sign that the coming was some time away. Now what is left to fulfill? A temple built in Jerusalem. I think we have to start from scratch because we promised the Israeli government that the educational building was just that an educational building. So we need a temple in ...iindependace Missouri? A few other meetings I won't describe in this public forum. But nothing that can't be done fairly quickly. Hopefully someone can think of something else that might require some time. How about the records of the lost 10 tribes? No sign of those so far. But perhaps the records have arrived, some histories of the scattered? And we have not noticed? any big, time consuming signs that have not been fulfilled? Am hoping for something. How about a highway on the water from the north - although perhaps this is the thawing of the northwest passage?

 

What the what? You're sad about the potential coming of the Savior?

[SpiritDragon]

excerpt from talk The restoration of Israel by Marion G Romney:

 

 

 

In the twentieth chapter of 3 Nephi, the resurrected Jesus—speaking of our day when the gospel would be restored among the Gentiles as it has now been—said: “When they [the Gentiles] shall have received the fulness of my gospel, then if they shall harden their hearts against me …

“I will remember the covenant which I have made with my people; and I have covenanted with them that I would gather them together in mine own due time, that I would give unto them again the land of their fathers for their inheritance, which is the land of Jerusalem, which is the promised land unto them forever, saith the Father.

“And it shall come to pass that the time cometh, when the fulness of my gospel shall be preached unto them;

“And they shall believe in me, that I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and shall pray unto the Father in my name.

“Then shall their watchmen lift up their voice, and with the voice together shall they sing; for they shall see eye to eye.

“Then will the Father gather them together again, and give unto them Jerusalem for the land of their inheritance.

“Then shall they break forth into joy—Sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Father hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. …

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, all these things shall surely come, even as the Father hath commanded me. Then shall this covenant which the Father hath covenanted with his people be fulfilled; and then shall Jerusalem be inhabited again with my people, and it shall be the land of their inheritance.” (3 Ne. 20:28–34, 46.)

 

I think these scripture fairly pointedly suggest that the gospel will be taught to the Jews and that they will accept it. Joseph F Smith writes about how the Jews had become much more open to Jesus during his time. He (Jesus) went from not being discussed, or held in ill repute to being considered a wonderful teacher. This is a step in the right direction and apparently preceded Israel being literally gathered as a Jewish state.

Edited August 28, 2015 by SpiritDragon

[hagoth]

If this statement is no longer considered true than I am sad. I was holding on to the need to convert the Jews before the 2nd coming as a sign that the coming was some time away. Now what is left to fulfill? A temple built in Jerusalem. I think we have to start from scratch because we promised the Israeli government that the educational building was just that an educational building. So we need a temple in ...iindependace Missouri? A few other meetings I won't describe in this public forum. But nothing that can't be done fairly quickly. Hopefully someone can think of something else that might require some time. How about the records of the lost 10 tribes? No sign of those so far. But perhaps the records have arrived, some histories of the scattered? And we have not noticed? any big, time consuming signs that have not been fulfilled? Am hoping for something. How about a highway on the water from the north - although perhaps this is the thawing of the northwest passage?

There is no reason to be sad. God's promises will always be true and reliable - and they will all be fulfilled, with the exception of (at least some) conditional promises where mankind didn't keep to the conditions. That doesn't mean everyone will initially recognize the fulfillment of such promises, or agree on when, whether, or through what means they were fulfilled. Perhaps more on that in a bit.

[hagoth]

Book of Mormon Student Manual religion 121-122, 2009 by intellectual reserve. Published by the church no isbn number

Pg 70. " 2 nephi 10: 6-8. The scattering and gathering of Isreal is first spiritual and then physical" Bruce r mcconkie clarified the reasons the scattering and gathering of the tribes of Isreal are first spiritual and second physical. Reference is " a new witness for the articles of faith (1985, 515). Perhaps this is a detail which is no longer believed to be true? Is a fairly old manual.

Note that verse 8 says "lands", not "land".  May I suggest giving that some thought and searching of the promises for a bit.

Edited August 29, 2015 by hagoth

[Sunday21]

What the what? You're sad about the potential coming of the Savior?

Well, before the coming of the Lord there will be many deaths due to weather, famine, disease. A fear of that time is quite common here. Not where you are from?

[Sunday21]

There is no reason to be sad. God's promises will always be true and reliable - and they will all be fulfilled, with the exception of (at least some) conditional promises where mankind didn't keep to the conditions. That doesn't mean everyone will initially recognize the fulfillment of such promises, or agree on when, whether, or through what means they were fulfilled. Perhaps more on that in a bit.

This seems to suggest a mass conversion of Jews which presumably would require a decade or so of work. Possibly teaching in Jerusalem which is currently forbidden. Which suggests that we have some time before the 2nd coming.

[pam]

This seems to suggest a mass conversion of Jews which presumably would require a decade or so of work. Possibly teaching in Jerusalem which is currently forbidden. Which suggests that we have some time before the 2nd coming.

 

Personally I wouldn't hold onto a timeframe.  Right now the church has an agreement that there won't be proselytizing in Israel.  But I think when that changes, things will move very very quickly.

[Sunday21]

Are there references that suggest we will preach in Isreal? Has a church leader commented on this?

[Latter Days Guy]

Personally I wouldn't hold onto a timeframe.  Right now the church has an agreement that there won't be proselytizing in Israel.  But I think when that changes, things will move very very quickly.

 

It will never change, Israel's policy is for a Jewish state, with only Jews as citizens.  Christians are treated almost as bad as Muslims in Israel which really makes me wonder why there is such support from mainly US churches for the state of Israel.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Latter Days Guy

[Latter Days Guy]

This seems to suggest a mass conversion of Jews which presumably would require a decade or so of work. Possibly teaching in Jerusalem which is currently forbidden. Which suggests that we have some time before the 2nd coming.

Which is why I mentioned Revelations previously, the two witnesses who are supposed to be Enoch and Elijah. I don't believe that they will be asking for permission to preach, and if the scripture passage is anything to go by they will be unable to stop them until God allows it, and then only for a few days as they are resurrected!

Edited August 28, 2015 by Latter Days Guy

[pam]

It will never change, Israel's policy is to a Jewish state, with only Jews as citizens.  Christians are treated almost as bad as Muslims in Israel which really makes me wonder why there is such support from mainly US churches for the state of Israel.

 

I disagree.  Nothing will stop the work of the Lord from moving forward in its own time.

[Latter Days Guy]

I disagree.  Nothing will stop the work of the Lord from moving forward in its own time.

 

I agree, but not because Israel will suddenly change its policy of being a Jewish state but rather by the mass conversion of Jews to Christ in the last days.  From my reading of revelations 11 they will try anything to stop the two witnesses preach the Gospel but will fail, until God allows them to be killed.  Their resurrection will open the floodgates of Jewish conversion to the Church. 

[pam]

Actually I was just reading in several places after googling that it is legal to proselytize in Israel however strongly discouraged.  The Church has made an agreement with Israel that they will not. Not because it is illegal.

[Latter Days Guy]

Just did a search and this was at the top of the list.

 

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/rel-christians.html

 

And this from the National Prayer Network:

 

http://www.truthtellers.org/hate%20crimes/proselyte.html

 

An interesting article in USA Today:

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-06-22-israel-missionaries_N.htm

[Traveler]

I have speculated that Chiasm is more than just a scripture structure - that it is a type and shadow in bedded in prophesy and a key to understanding things to come.   In Ecclesiastes we are told that the thing that were are key to that which shall be.  We are also told that the first shall be last and the last shall be first.  I speculate that this is a type and shadow of a Chiasm.

 

Since Jesus was first among the Jews - I speculate that the Jews will be the last. 

 

As to the temple in Independence and in Jerusalem - I have speculated of two great City states of ancient times - The City of Enoch and the City of Salem that both were translated and taken (somewhere) will return in connection with the second coming of Christ.  I also speculate that the City of Enoch and its temple complex will be restored to independence and that the temple of Jerusalem will be restored with the return of Salem and its temple.  I have wondered if the actual place of the temple of Salem was in the same spot as the place Abraham offered Isac and the same place where Jesus was offered - and that was the site of the temple of Solomon.   Thus the gathering of Israel to Jerusalem and the return of the saints to Missouri I speculate could take place in the matter of a few days - gathered quickly as on "eagle wings" - or in other words fly in rather suddenly.

 

I do not know if the time for fulfillment can be counted as years on one's fingers but I do believe we should prepare and be prepared as if it was so.

[Guest]

It will never change, Israel's policy is for a Jewish state, with only Jews as citizens.  Christians are treated almost as bad as Muslims in Israel which really makes me wonder why there is such support from mainly US churches for the state of Israel.

 

Ugh.  This is highly exaggerated.

 

You need to make a distinction between Jew as a religion (Judaism) versus Jew as a culture (blood).  Israel is a Jewish State.  As in Jew by culture.  Not necessarily Religion.  Just like Arabs - also a culture, not a Religion.  Jewish State means - any Jew anywhere in the world is a citizen of Israel, regardless of religion.  It doesn't mean that if you are non-Jew you can't be a citizen of Israel.

 

The State holds freedom of religion laws in the same manner as the US and most of the west.  Israel is a result of a Zionist migration, therefore, the state is mostly Jews (both in culture and religion).  There are non-Jews - many Arabs and some Slavs and other cultures in the region due to indigenous residents prior to the 1948 treaties as well as inter-marriage between Jews and non-Jews and a few immigrants.  As a Zionist state, any Jew anywhere in the world has automatic citizenship in Israel if they so choose.  Citizenship in Israel requires that they give up citizenship anywhere else.  In additional to that, all Palestinians - Arab, Jew, or otherwise, who resided in Israel in 1948 received Israeli citizenship.  Also, spouses and children of Israeli citizens also qualify for citizenship regardless of culture.  Anybody non-Jew born in Israel also gets citizenship after 5 years of residence.  And lastly, any non-Jew who wants to immigrate to Israel can apply for citizenship.

 

That said - majority of the Christians in Israel are not Jews - they are Arabs.  And just like there is Westboro Baptist Church Christians in the US, there is also the similar ultra-misguided-orthodox Jews in Israel.  They have been responsible for the attack on the Church of the Multiplication among other things.  In addition, there are Muslims in Israel who are sympathetic to the jihadist movement that are attacking Christians.  All of these happenings are considered criminal and are subject to action by the Israeli government.

 

Overall, Israel is the only place in the entire Middle East where Christians are thriving.  Filipino Overseas Workers in the Middle East (mostly Roman Catholics) run to Israel for safe haven when they experience persecution.  Because of this, a good number of Filipinos are now Israeli citizens which led to the rise of Catholic Churches in Tel Aviv.

 

As far as proselyting goes, it is legal to proselyte in Israel but it is difficult because of the 80% Jewish (religion) majority.  This majority is hard to penetrate because of their influence in politics.  Jews (religion) fear for their brethren just as much as we LDS do.  Therefore, they put up protections of their membership so they will not convert.  This is natural.  Because of this, even though it is legal in Israel to proselyte, there is a sense of resistance within the government as majority of government are Jews (religion) and laws and policies have Jewish leanings.

 

This is the same in the Philippines.  The Philippines is 80% Christian - a large majority of which is Roman Catholic.  LDS proselyting is ok because LDS in the Philippines is considered Christian.  But Muslim proselyting is very very difficult.  A lot of discriminating policies are in place against it even if proselyting is legal in the Philippines.  Also, laws like divorce have no prayer of passing in Philippine government as a vast majority of Filipinos are Roman Catholics who believe divorce is against Christ's laws even if other Christian sects hold no such belief.  That's just the nature of democracy.

Edited August 28, 2015 by anatess

[Just_A_Guy]

I agree, but not because Israel will suddenly change its policy of being a Jewish state but rather by the mass conversion of Jews to Christ in the last days. From my reading of revelations 11 they will try anything to stop the two witnesses preach the Gospel but will fail, until God allows them to be killed. Their resurrection will open the floodgates of Jewish conversion to the Church.

Traditional LDS interpretations are that the two witnesses use the priesthood to defend Jerusalem against the armies that will gather to annihilate the Jews in Jerusalem; and that when they die the enemies of the Jews will be so elated that they spend three days celebrating while the prophets' corpses lie in the street. Then comes the entrapment of the Jews in the Kidron Valley and their attempted extermination, which is stopped only by Jesus Himself; at which point He is recognized as Messiah. Only then do the Jews notice the wounds in His hands and feet and finally connect the Messiah with Jesus of Nazareth. (That, touching on another recent thread, is why Mormons tend to be sympathetic to what Prisonchaplain calls "Christian Zionism"--because we believe we are in the end times, and we believe that in the end times it is not the Jews but their enemies who find themselves receiving the brunt of God's displeasure).

Individual Jews may convert in the interim, but I've never really anticipated mass Jewish conversions to Christianity (let alone Mormonism) before the Second Coming. What I do anticipate is growing Jewish connectedness with their own religious roots as they understand them which leads to increased religious observance, gathering, a desire to rebuild the temple, etc.

I don't know how Jewish law shakes out re proselytizing, but the Church's no-proselytizing policy was a voluntary concession to public opinion (not enshrined statute) in exchange for being allowed to lease a prime chunk of real estate on the Mount of Olives. It can be lifted if the public is willing to release the church from its commitment, or if BYU gives up its Jerusalem Center.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Latter Days Guy]

Ugh.  This is highly exaggerated.

 

You need to make a distinction between Jew as a religion (Judaism) versus Jew as a culture (blood).  Israel is a Jewish State.  As in Jew by culture.  Not necessarily Religion.  Just like Arabs - also a culture, not a Religion.  Jewish State means - any Jew anywhere in the world is a citizen of Israel, regardless of religion.  It doesn't mean that if you are non-Jew you can't be a citizen of Israel.

 

Yes both secular and religious jews have under Israeli law the right of return to Israel.  This is also extended to those who convert to Judaism.  But that right of return is not extended to Jews who have converted to another religion.  If a citizen of Israel who lives in Israel converts then that is another matter.

 

The State holds freedom of religion laws in the same manner as the US and most of the west.  Israel is a result of a Zionist migration, therefore, the state is mostly Jews (both in culture and religion).  There are non-Jews - many Arabs and some Slavs and other cultures in the region due to indigenous residents prior to the 1948 treaties as well as inter-marriage between Jews and non-Jews and a few immigrants.  As a Zionist state, any Jew anywhere in the world has automatic citizenship in Israel if they so choose.  Citizenship in Israel requires that they give up citizenship anywhere else.  In additional to that, all Palestinians - Arab, Jew, or otherwise, who resided in Israel in 1948 received Israeli citizenship.  Also, spouses and children of Israeli citizens also qualify for citizenship regardless of culture.  Anybody non-Jew born in Israel also gets citizenship after 5 years of residence.  And lastly, any non-Jew who wants to immigrate to Israel can apply for citizenship.

 

Very few Palestinians have Israeli citizenship, the vast majority are classed as non-citizen indigenous people.  Any non jew can apply, they won't get it though.  I've know several people who wanted to move to Israel, even someone who was married to a jew (though secular) who was refused citizenship because they were not Jewish.

 

That said - majority of the Christians in Israel are not Jews - they are Arabs.  And just like there is Westboro Baptist Church Christians in the US, there is also the similar ultra-misguided-orthodox Jews in Israel.  They have been responsible for the attack on the Church of the Multiplication among other things.  In addition, there are Muslims in Israel who are sympathetic to the jihadist movement that are attacking Christians.  All of these happenings are considered criminal and are subject to action by the Israeli government.

 

I would be surprised if any of the Christians in Israel were Jewish being as they are Christian!  From what I've read and been told by people who visit Israel often, its quite definitely the orthodox Jews who are attacking Christians with very little problems between the arab Christians and Muslims.  They have to hide there activities as they go to Israel to share the gospel but know that if they said that when applying for visas etc they would be denied entry.

 

Overall, Israel is the only place in the entire Middle East where Christians are thriving.  Filipino Overseas Workers in the Middle East (mostly Roman Catholics) run to Israel for safe haven when they experience persecution.  Because of this, a good number of Filipinos are now Israeli citizens which led to the rise of Catholic Churches in Tel Aviv.

 

From what I've been told by Christians who visit regulary, they say the opposite.  That the church is under great persecution with little or no action taken against those who cause trouble for churches or visiting Christians.

 

As far as proselyting goes, it is legal to proselyte in Israel but it is difficult because of the 80% Jewish (religion) majority.  This majority is hard to penetrate because of their influence in politics.  Jews (religion) fear for their brethren just as much as we LDS do.  Therefore, they put up protections of their membership so they will not convert.  This is natural.  Because of this, even though it is legal in Israel to proselyte, there is a sense of resistance within the government as majority of government are Jews (religion) and laws and policies have Jewish leanings.

 

So much for the religious freedom you mentioned previously.

 

This is the same in the Philippines.  The Philippines is 80% Christian - a large majority of which is Roman Catholic.  LDS proselyting is ok because LDS in the Philippines is considered Christian.  But Muslim proselyting is very very difficult.  A lot of discriminating policies are in place against it even if proselyting is legal in the Philippines.  Also, laws like divorce have no prayer of passing in Philippine government as a vast majority of Filipinos are Roman Catholics who believe divorce is against Christ's laws even if other Christian sects hold no such belief.  That's just the nature of democracy.

 

Those non-Jews living in Israel and even in the occupied territories are treated as 2nd class citizens, they have difficulties with travel within the country, and if they should want to leave to travel between different regions, say the West Bank and Gaza it can take  a long time to get the necessary travel documentation to do so. If you want to actually leave the country, often they will find that they are not allowed back in.  The harsh reality is, its not good to be a non-jew in Israel.

[Sunday21]

Which is why I mentioned Revelations previously, the two witnesses who are supposed to be Enoch and Elijah. I don't believe that they will be asking for permission to preach, and if the scripture passage is anything to go by they will be unable to stop them until God allows it, and then only for a few days as they are resurrected!

But as Mormon we are required to obey the law of the land. Surely we would not break the law?