400 religious leaders to resign -- Ashley Madison Hack


prisonchaplain
 Share

Recommended Posts

Guest LiterateParakeet

Right. But wouldn't Satan prefer we feel no shame?

Well, in my experience with shame (over something that was not actually my fault, but I felt it was)...it drove a serious wedge in my relationship with the Lord and Heavenly Father. My shame kept me from attending the temple, even though my leaders assured me I was worthy, for three years. I tried to go, but the temple that had once been a place of peace became exquisitely painful.

But fear not, I overcame, and once again enjoy the temple, though I admit I still feel a little tenative about it. I'm still healing.

So for me, and many others I know, shame is damaging, and I'm sure Satan thrills at that.

Edited by LiterateParakeet
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, in my experience with shame (over something that was not actually my fault, but I felt it was)...it drove a serious wedge in my relationship with the Lord and Heavenly Father. My shame kept me from attending the temple, even though my leaders assured me I was worthy, for three years. I tried to go, but the temple that had once been a place of peace became exquisitely painful.

But fear not, I overcame, and once again enjoy the temple, though I admit I still feel a little tenative about it. I'm still healing.

So for me, and many others I know, shame is damaging, and I'm sure Satan thrills at that.

 

Sure. But in the context of...

 

Shame is one of his best weapons, far more useful here than lies could ever hope to be.

 

...it seems to me that, at least in your case, shame was the lie.

 

Either way, I'm not arguing that shame cannot be used adversely. But it's quite a stretch to claim it's one of Satan's best weapons and more useful than lies.

 

I stand by my thought. I believe that the lie that we shouldn't feel shame when we actually should is a far greater tool of Satan's than the lie that we should feel shame when we shouldn't.

 

But either way, the real tool is the lie. He's the father of lies for a reason. ;)

Edited by The Folk Prophet
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can anyone give me any reason to believe that the scum who stole and published that list did not add names of innocent people? Why should I trust the word of those who have already shown themselves to be criminals?

 

I have little patience for the argument that this should scare us all because it might unmask us all. That's an argument to use with cockroaches. But seeing how this information has already destroyed the credibility and employ ability of many and has resulted in at least a few suicides, I want some sort of assurance that the people who we mobsters with pitchforks are so righteously crucifying are actually guilty of the action with which they are charged.

Well its pretty dang easy that if your name is on that list or someone you know to go look them up on it... If you find their account then you know.  I think a little vigilantism is a good thing when it comes to the SCUM CHEATING ON THEIR SPOUSES... You fail to mention that half of the scum and only recognize the side exposing them... 

Edited by Chilltothebone
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well its pretty dang easy that if your name is on that list or someone you know to go look them up on it... If you find their account then you know.

 

Acutally, no, you don't know. That was my point. How do we know one of the hackers didn't add your name in? They have already proven what kind of people they are: Untrustworthy, law-breaking liars. Adding in your name and maybe even credit card account would hardly be beneath such people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The idea that the Ashley Madison hackers planted names on the list strikes me as odd.  After all, why did they hack into the list and publish it? To prove they could?  Perhaps. To destroy an immoral business and out its customers? More likely. To simply hurt people randomly? We're back to perhaps.

 

My struggle with the idea that the hackers would take time to find lists of real people and plant them into the Ashley Madison customer list is that doing so undermines the expose.  Once it is found out that some of the names are "false hits" the whole expose falls apart.  Why take the time to do that?  A hack and post gives these hackers some instant notoriety.  Doing the tedious work of adding false hits (one at a time?) doesn't make sense--unless they were trying to embarrass those individuals.

 

Bottom line:  I would certainly entertain any individual exposed, who insisted they never set up such an account.  However, I find that idea of wide-scale false plants highly unlikely.  On the other hand, could some individuals have made false accounts just to mess with their friends colleagues, never imagining such a plant would take place?  THAT is where we may find a few false hits on men, imho.

Edited by prisonchaplain
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What if the people weren't random? What if they decided to target people they especially disliked?

 

What if their data weren't pristine? What's to prevent other hackers from hacking their hack and inserting extraneous information?

 

It is a question of reliability and trustworthiness. The hackers have proven themselves untrustworthy, so why should anyone believe anything they claim?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...it seems to me that, at least in your case, shame was the lie.

 

Either way, I'm not arguing that shame cannot be used adversely. But it's quite a stretch to claim it's one of Satan's best weapons and more useful than lies.

 

 

Consider the case of the repentant spouse abuser.  Consider the repentance process, and how 'forgive yourself' is one of the steps to a full and complete repentance.  

 

The longer satan can keep this guy carrying shame over what he did, the longer he can keep this guy from full repentance, thus successfully using shame as a wedge between this guy and his Savior.

 

Satan asks: "You beat up your wife.  Are you seriously telling me that you shouldn't feel shame for that?  That you should get to walk through life whistling your happy tune, while your wife must bear the scars until her dying day?  Tell me again about how this savior of yours is just?"

 

Spot the lie.  Satan isn't really saying or claiming anything - just preying on weakness and reinforcing shame.  If his plan works, this guy will carry the shame throughout his life, into his relationships, it will make him walk roads he wouldn't otherwise walk, and not walk roads he should walk.

Edited by NeuroTypical
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Consider the repentance process, and how 'forgive yourself' is one of the steps to a full and complete repentance.  

 

Is it?

 

If one did every other step, completely changed, worked the rest of their lives in obedience, repaired the damage done, but inside struggled psychologically to truly let it go and forgive themselves, would God then say on that day, "Well, you did everything else, were a faithful servant, endured to the end, kept all mine ordinances...but...you didn't totally forgive yourself...so.... Celestial glory denied!"

 

As to the rest of your post -- I agree it can be a tool of Satan's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now if you are one who cannot forgive yourself for serious past transgressions—even when a judge in Israel has assured that you have properly repented—if you feel compelled to continually condemn yourself and suffer by frequently recalling the details of past errors, I plead with all of my soul that you ponder this statement of the Savior:

 
“He who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.
 
“By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins— … he will confess them and forsake them.” 12
 
To continue to suffer when there has been proper repentance is not prompted by the Savior but the master of deceit, whose goal is to bind and enslave you. Satan will press you to continue to relive the details of past mistakes, knowing that such thoughts make forgiveness seem unattainable. In this way Satan attempts to tie strings to the mind and body so that he can manipulate you like a puppet.
 
I testify that when a bishop or stake president has confirmed that your repentance is sufficient, know that your obedience has allowed the Atonement of Jesus Christ to satisfy the demands of justice for the laws you have broken. Therefore you are now free. Please believe it. To continually suffer the distressing effects of sin after adequate repentance, while not intended, is to deny the efficacy of the Savior’s Atonement in your behalf.

 

 

 

~ Richard G. Scott, Peace of Conscience and Peace of Mind, October 2004 General Conference

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What if the people weren't random? What if they decided to target people they especially disliked?

 

What if their data weren't pristine? What's to prevent other hackers from hacking their hack and inserting extraneous information?

 

It is a question of reliability and trustworthiness. The hackers have proven themselves untrustworthy, so why should anyone believe anything they claim?

 

What are the claiming?  The hackers aren't the ones saying, "Look at one John Doe did!"  They hacked a site, which is illegal and wrong.  They published the list of clients.  Again, this is wrong.  However, just because the hackers did these two wrong deeds does not mean that therefore the list is bogus, and cannot be considered.  Why is it that prosecutors use the testimony of criminals against criminals?  Just because they are not trustworthy witnesses does not mean that everything they say is useless and wrong.

 

So...if you are suggesting that the list should be completely ignored by everyone, that ain't gonna happen.  On the other hand, if the suggestion is that those accused, who claim innocence, should be given a good measure of benefit of the doubt, then sure--you got my vote.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps by implication, but the might simply be saying, "It is what it is."  Me, having a faint idea on the nature of criminals, am inclined to believe that yeah, they were too lazy to doctor the list, as such an effort would be deemed tedious by most hacker-types.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

PC - I have not commented on this subject but rather did some looking into it first.  This site is not a place of temptation - as near as I can tell the only reason to become involved with the site is to sin and make the commission of sin easier.   That so many "ministers" or men of the clergy were involved - I am inclined to think the hackers were more inspired of G-d than those that think "doctrine" and teaching unlived truth is the inspired work of G-d.

 

I do not think this is a problem of doctrine or a misunderstanding of what is sin.  My concern is that the light of G-d is not shinning in the darkness.

 

To use an analogy you used in that we do not shoot our wounded in battle.  It is my honest opinion that they were not wounded in battle - they were rather caught in the act of deliberately helping the enemy.

 

I am not saying they cannot be won over and brought to Christ - I am saying that if they were once with Christ - why did they turn their back on him knowing full well what they were doing.  This is a very different problem, in my mind than winning souls to Christ.  I would be very interested in why they chose the website as their worship knowing it to be corrupt and knowing it to be the wrong choice between Christ and Satan? 

 

It seem obvious to me that to "convert" them to Christ - is going to take more than doctrine - because up to now - teaching them the doctrine did not work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Traveler...why do we sin?  Is this the bottom line question?  Why do we curse instead of crying God help me!  Why do we frequently play catch-up with our tithes, but never miss an opportunity for choice entertainment?  Why do so many people cheat on their spouses?  Whether small or great, our sins are worship of our Enemy--or even of self.  Church leaders are held to a higher standard, so this stings more.  I believe I outlined that the process of restoration is pretty stringent.  Statistically, in my movement, only half even undertake restoration, and only half of those complete the process.  That's not to say that some who do not choose restoration will not fail make peace with God, and perhaps serve him in a non-clergy calling.

 

A couple other thoughts:  A Christian who sins is wounded.  I stand by the statement that we do not shoot our wounded.  Not all wounds are honorable, but they all hurt.  Anyone who seeks healing still interacts with the Spirit.  My place is to minister to such a one.

 

Then, concerning the idea that "so many 'ministers'" visited the site:  If 2 million men were on the site, and there are roughly 200,000,000 men in America, then nearly 1% were on the list.  If 400 clergy were on the site, and there are 600,000 clergy in the United States, then that's about .07%.  That's 400 too many-- .07% too much -- but hardly a condemning rate for those ordained.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Traveler...why do we sin?  Is this the bottom line question?  Why do we curse instead of crying God help me!  Why do we frequently play catch-up with our tithes, but never miss an opportunity for choice entertainment?  Why do so many people cheat on their spouses?  Whether small or great, our sins are worship of our Enemy--or even of self.  Church leaders are held to a higher standard, so this stings more.  I believe I outlined that the process of restoration is pretty stringent.  Statistically, in my movement, only half even undertake restoration, and only half of those complete the process.  That's not to say that some who do not choose restoration will not fail make peace with God, and perhaps serve him in a non-clergy calling.

 

A couple other thoughts:  A Christian who sins is wounded.  I stand by the statement that we do not shoot our wounded.  Not all wounds are honorable, but they all hurt.  Anyone who seeks healing still interacts with the Spirit.  My place is to minister to such a one.

 

Then, concerning the idea that "so many 'ministers'" visited the site:  If 2 million men were on the site, and there are roughly 200,000,000 men in America, then nearly 1% were on the list.  If 400 clergy were on the site, and there are 600,000 clergy in the United States, then that's about .07%.  That's 400 too many-- .07% too much -- but hardly a condemning rate for those ordained.

 

Thank you - It is just that this kind of thing is more than surface. It is not just the sin of adultery - I have come to understand that the act of sin is not so bad as advertised - the real damage is the journey that someone takes to get to the point that such a sin becomes desirable to them.  I also realize that some require to fall (reach bottom sort of speak) before they realize they are falling.  You are correct that we administer, help and lift all. 

 

You say all that sin are wounded.  No doubt but this would seem to be to be self inflicted wounds.  It reminds me of a fellow I met while serving an LDS mission.  He was a likable fellow and I thought him to be a good prospect for teaching when I found out he was already LDS.  I said something to the effect about "lost sheep" and he said he was not lost - he knew what he was doing, he knew where he was - he was not lot--he was hiding.

 

I cannot believe that given a knowledgeable choice with someone that actually knows what they are doing - would choose evil knowing full well they are choosing the wrong with delight.  Sorry - I cannot wrap my mind around that.  I keep thinking I have missed something. 

 

I have communicated directly to people that so choose evil - despite all my questions - I am left thinking they are lying to themselves more than they are lying to me.  The other part of this -- in my experience there are so many other things wrong about them and around them - I wonder why they are not challenged earlier.  Why no one looks them in the eye and asks - what are you doing to yourself?

 

Maybe we think to do so is judgmental.  But I believe if we have impressions - we should not ignore them.  If we are wrong then we in essence clear the air and put doubt behind.

Edited by Traveler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hate moral relativism.  I hate the refrain "Judge not," when it's used to avoid accountability.  I hate that Believers (or Saints, if you will) justify small compromises by making comparisons with the lost world.  And, oh yes, I certainly hate to see spiritual leaders announce their "moments of weakness" "lapses in judgment," etc.

 

But I do know about my own small compromises.  I don't look at outright pornography, but are their images I should not have glanced twice at that I did?  Are they movies I should have x'd out, or walked out from, but I did not?  Are there words I should have kept to myself that I spoke? 

 

Big sins have bigger consequences, but all sins distance us from God.  An Ashley Madison account may be many-fold a larger sin than my 2nd glances--but I mark myself first, and would only approach a brother in sin with correction when I could do so in righteous humility. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hate moral relativism.  I hate the refrain "Judge not," when it's used to avoid accountability.  I hate that Believers (or Saints, if you will) justify small compromises by making comparisons with the lost world.  And, oh yes, I certainly hate to see spiritual leaders announce their "moments of weakness" "lapses in judgment," etc.

 

But I do know about my own small compromises.  I don't look at outright pornography, but are their images I should not have glanced twice at that I did?  Are they movies I should have x'd out, or walked out from, but I did not?  Are there words I should have kept to myself that I spoke? 

 

Big sins have bigger consequences, but all sins distance us from God.  An Ashley Madison account may be many-fold a larger sin than my 2nd glances--but I mark myself first, and would only approach a brother in sin with correction when I could do so in righteous humility. 

 

I very much enjoy our conversations but I will not accuse you of being a kindred spirit - though it would make me feel better. 

 

I do not see sins as big or little sins - like your statement that sin is sin.  What I see is the journey I must take to put myself through in order to justify that it is alright to do something that I am considering.  I have learned that for me it is not sin that I regret - it is the process of repenting of it that is the hassle and problem for me.  To be honest there are things (sins) that I avoid - not because I dislike them or detest them but because I have found them so hard to repent of and get over the feeling of failure and being embarrassed before G-d.  The truth is that if I could figure out a way to get away with a sin and repent of it without the hassle or embarrassment of disappointing G-d - I would perhaps view this differently.

 

Because of my experience - I can only justify someone that does not like, appreciate or know G-d to be able to involve themselves with this website.  I do not understanding finding joy in such a thing and then happy to be among those of such a different mind on Sunday.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm with Vort on being suspicious of accusations tossed around based on the hack. Ashley Madison tried to reduce the paper trail by not validating the email address used to sign up for an account. Without placing any additional duplicity on the part of the hackers, you can easily imagine a scenario where an impish college roommate or old high school buddy decides to "prank" Conan the Seminarian by creating an account for him. Or a parishioner who doesn't like that the self-righteous clergyman challenges his/her sins. Or maybe someone simply disagrees with the political views of another person. Would you care to see some of the email addresses from the hack?

Do you really believe these people are using their work email to sign up for an adultery site? And that the current POTUS liked it so much he signed up twice?

 

EDIT** I DO believe that Billy Bob took full advantage of the site. I never trusted that guy.

Edited by mordorbund
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well its pretty dang easy that if your name is on that list or someone you know to go look them up on it... If you find their account then you know.  I think a little vigilantism is a good thing when it comes to the SCUM CHEATING ON THEIR SPOUSES... You fail to mention that half of the scum and only recognize the side exposing them... 

 

I think vigilantism is unwarranted here. Assuming the list genuine, the cheater's marriage is severely affected - possibly unmendable. The couple's friends typically take sides, and I'd wager the cheater will find him/herself drawing the short straw. The cheater's life will already be severely affected without adding doxxing or identity theft (credit card info is also in the hack).

 

LP's philosophy on prison seems applicable here: This is their punishment - not you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is an interesting question if and how the church is using that list.  I would hope, at the very least, it is doing a data match with church leaders.

 

I don't suppose any of us has any information on that, but I'm sure that the church would consider that confidential information.

 

I would imagine the Church would use the system currently in place: church disciplinary concerns are handled by ward and stake leaders. Higher officials only get involved on appeal.

 

I would instead hope, as PC has expressed, that those who have been damaged themselves with such sin will apply the Lord's formula of "confess and forsake".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share