Tight and revealing


bytor2112
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Lot's of sisters in our ward wear very tight and revealing dresses to church. Not sure what you would call these type of dresses, but they are long and seem to cling, wrap very close to the body and are just distracting. Distracting to the point that the contours of derriers are easily made out....not just the contours if you follow me. (ok, I am struggling with my description here).

 

Also, skin tight jeans and yoga pants out and about and at church social functions. I am not passing judgment but, this type of attire draws attention to areas that I shouldn't notice. But alas, I am a man....

 

Anyone else notice this or is it exclusive to my Ward?

Edited by bytor2112
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It's not just your ward. 

 

I do not like synthetic or synthetic-blend fabrics for several reasons but mainly because they cling so badly (and often quite unflatteringly too.) No matter how flowy and loose a maxi dress might be, if it is made of polyester it is going to hug the body. No amount of anti-static product will really help with this for three+ hrs of church. It is a problem. Even sisters who try their best to be modest occassionally wear these things, if only because the dress is inexpensive and doesn't require ironing. I search forever for cotton skirts and dresses, but finding a modest dress that is also made of cotton is a very difficult task. And when you find them, they are quite cost-prohibitive and more often than not, all the other sensible ladies have already bought it out in my size

Edited by char713
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My mom always used to have me and my sisters wear pantyhose on Sundays. This kept us from being able to wear flip-flop sandals to church and I believe she also meant them to prevent the "contouring" of which you speak. 

 

But who wears pantyhose now, really? Older sisters and maybe the most well-dressed elegant "Kate Middletons" of the world. And the whole point of wearing a maxi dress is the roomy, breezy comfort as well as not necessarily having to remember to shave your legs before church. Pantyhose would defeat the point of choosing a comfy dress in the first place. So that's why I only ever wear cotton, no matter the length of my skirt.

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Anyone else notice this or is it exclusive to my Ward?

 

While on the High Council in my stake I saw this situation in all the wards to one degree or another, among YW and mothers and a few women old enough to be grandmothers, women who I had seen in the temple and others I had never seen there (whether they had a recommend or not.) I've also seen those that wear blouses which when they lean over to a child or to talk to someone who is seated, display all the "gifts" the good Lord gave them.

 

Look away. Speak to the bishop if you feel its warranted, he is the shepherd of that fold. Let your wive and daughters know what you find appropriate, you are the shepherd of your fold.

 

Knowing that all are not on the same level spiritually helps give perspective. Love the sinner not the "sin". While this might sometimes appear like an epidemic, to me it's just the flip side of the coin of priesthood and pornography. We live in a hyper-sexualized world.   

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Me again. I don't want to make excuses for those who dress immodestly, inadvertently or not. But I'm not sure that men, or women who just don't care about modesty, know just how hard it is to find truly modest clothing that is also proper for church (not a t-shirt, in other words.) There are so many ways in which a dress can be immodest in addition to being simply too low or high-cut:

 

*sleeveless

*the sleeve isn't really a sleeve, there is a cap sleeve but the whole armpit and more is exposed

*sheer panels, cutouts

*too tight

*asymmetrical hem that is long enough in some places but not others

*ill-fitting but otherwise perfectly modest tops that gape open, immodest when seen from the side

*any of these issues on the back of the blouse or dress as well

 

So if someone is lucky enough to come across a dress that covers all of these bases AND is not insanely overpriced, but it has the potential to be too clingy, I can see why they see that as the lesser of these many other evils. 

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It is definitely not just your ward, I've seen it in both wards I've been in since joining the church in 2011.

 

In those wards, it's been skirts more than dresses, specifically a certain style of skirt that is definitely casual by design and more suited for a weekend at the beach.  But it appears that many women think that any skirt that comes to the ankles is by default modest, no matter the design of the rest of the skirt. 

 

It seems to be a peculiarly Mormon fashion, as I've not seen these casual, clingy skirts being worn in other settings where a modest "Sunday best" kind of attire would be common.

 

Indeed, there have been a few such strange "fashion trends" that I only see at church/church functions.

 

Modest clothing is not hard to find and doesn't cost any more than immodest clothing.

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Modest clothing is not hard to find and doesn't cost any more than immodest clothing.

 

Please, do tell where it is that you shop. Low-end stores that sell dresses and skirts that I know of such as Old Navy and Target almost always use cheap, clingy poly-knit fabrics. Which are the reason for the problem. The only places I have found that carry more than one kind of woven skirt (nevermind dresses), more than once a year, that is not plain black or blue, that will also not fall apart within the first couple of washings (hello JcPenney, H&M, Forever 21, etc.) are online stores such as Modcloth and Anthropologie. Modcloth is relatively affordable, but at $40-$80 for a cotton skirt that's still waaaay more than prices at Old Navy. And they are not mass-produced so they sell out fast in most sizes. So no chance of sales. 

 

Even the so-called modest stores here in UT (Downeast Basics for example) are guilty of selling nothing but sheer and/or clingy skirts and dresses for the majority of the year. And let's not get into how expensive (and low-quality) their stuff is either! 

 

I am alright with it, myself, having to spend more (sometimes a lot more) to get something to wear for church that is not only modest but of decent quality and that I can wear consistently for months, or years even. It requires that I put more thought into what I wear, and make-do with fewer pieces of greater value. But I'm guessing that many women don't have that luxury. The cheap Old Navy skirt they bought in the spring rips or is stained, they don't have the budget to buy even a $40 JcPenney a-line skirt, so they go back to Old Navy again and grab whatever fits and is long enough. 

Edited by char713
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I don't really know if I notice anymore or not, or maybe it just doesn't bother me like it used to.

 

One thing I frequently notice in the modesty discussion is an emphasis on "her clothes make me think ....". Are we really so afraid of what we might be thinking? Do we believe that every sexual thought we have is the equivalent of "lust" as described by the Savior? I do not believe so, and, therefore, I do not fear any consequence for random thoughts brought on by whatever the women at church (or school or work or the mall or whereever) are wearing or not wearing.

 

I have found it interesting how other cultures, such as some tribes in tropical regions or nudist communities, can go topless or otherwise naked or nearly naked, and they are not bothered by it. They have become so "desensitized" to the nudity that it does not overly influence their thoughts or behavior. Since I really cannot control what women I encounter might be wearing, my own approach to other's immodesty is to try to become desensitized to it -- to not let it bother me. If a sexual thought is triggered, so be it, I will move on from it.

 

To paraphrase a somewhat well known (in many sci-fi circles) litany:

 

[sexual thoughts are] the mind-killer.

[sexual thoughts are] the little-death that brings total obliteration.

I will face my [sexual thoughts].

I will permit [them] to pass over me and through me.

And when [they have] gone past I will turn the inner eye to see [their] path.

Where the [sexual thoughts have] gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

 

Paraphrased from Frank Herbert's Dune.

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I shop second hand, and always find nice things that are modest and bring me compliments. I also get hand-me-downs from my sister who shops at Macy's. I'm glad she does because I never would. LOL

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Guest LiterateParakeet

I don't have trouble finding modest clothes, as a middle aged woman, but it is a lot harder to find modest clothing for my teenage daughter.  When I go to Time Out For Women, they always have a Sweet Salt vendor there, and it is always crowded with women looking for modest clothes for themselves and their daughters--because they can be hard to find.  And let's not even start on finding modest formal wear.

 

http://sweetsaltclothing.com

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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Me again. I don't want to make excuses for those who dress immodestly, inadvertently or not. But I'm not sure that men, or women who just don't care about modesty, know just how hard it is to find truly modest clothing that is also proper for church (not a t-shirt, in other words.) There are so many ways in which a dress can be immodest in addition to being simply too low or high-cut:

 

*sleeveless

*the sleeve isn't really a sleeve, there is a cap sleeve but the whole armpit and more is exposed

*sheer panels, cutouts

*too tight

*asymmetrical hem that is long enough in some places but not others

*ill-fitting but otherwise perfectly modest tops that gape open, immodest when seen from the side

*any of these issues on the back of the blouse or dress as well

 

So if someone is lucky enough to come across a dress that covers all of these bases AND is not insanely overpriced, but it has the potential to be too clingy, I can see why they see that as the lesser of these many other evils. 

 

But at least you don't have to worry about whether your white (and it had better be white!) shirt is inappropriately dingy, threadbare, or wrinkly.  :P

 

Incidentally:  Last week I went to a wedding at an Episcopalian church, and the majority of the female attendees under 30 were dressed like--I'm sorry for the comparison, but I've seen call girls dress much more modestly.  So at the moment, I'm disinclined to complain about what Mormon women wear to church.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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I don't really know if I notice anymore or not, or maybe it just doesn't bother me like it used to.

 

"Tight" never bothered me. Certain things do. It's interesting, actually, as an intellectual study, this whole "modesty" thing. I'm a huge modesty advocate. Big time. But...what I consider immodest is very, very different from what my mother did/does. Taken to an extreme, we can use the ol' showing yer ankle used to be scandalous thing. Women who are very modest in today's world wear all sorts of things that Victorians would have found scandalous and ridiculously immodest.

 

Is there a hard line? Is there a point where, culture aside, something is simply black-and-white immodest?

 

I certainly blanch at certain things. Cleavage, mini-skirts, and even to an extent sleeveless. But I've never found the difference of fitted or clingy to be a factor in the way I view the modesty of women -- and by that, I don't think anything of it at all. If a woman is attractive with a clingy skirt or a woman is attractive with a less clingy skirt I can't say the need to forcefully not watch her walking down the hallway at church changes much. Maybe a bit. But I guess I see it in the same terms as her being slightly more attractive than another woman. The relative slightly more attractive is just life. Some women are very attractive.

 

Of course, I realize, intellectually, that being attractive isn't necessarily a choice, and clingy clothes are. I dunno. It's like I said. It's just never meant much to me.

 

Odd.

 

Do we believe that every sexual thought we have is the equivalent of "lust" as described by the Savior?

 

No. But that doesn't mean every sexual thought we have is appropriate.

 

They have become so "desensitized" to the nudity that it does not overly influence their thoughts or behavior.

 

In some, extreme, long-time tribal cultures there may be some truth to this. For the most part, I'm guessing the nudist claiming they're hanging out with naked women and it's not influencing their thoughts or behavior are liars.

 

Not that your point doesn't have some validity.

 

If a sexual thought is triggered, so be it, I will move on from it.

 

Maybe you mean this differently than I'm reading it (or, rather, maybe by "I will move on from it" you mean what I'm saying), but I'm not sure the "so be it" approach is safe. (Allowing that I may be reading into it more than you mean). So be it? No. Cross yourself. Improve. Learn. Grow. Change.

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Maybe you mean this differently than I'm reading it (or, rather, maybe by "I will move on from it" you mean what I'm saying), but I'm not sure the "so be it" approach is safe. (Allowing that I may be reading into it more than you mean). So be it? No. Cross yourself. Improve. Learn. Grow. Change.

I apologize. In hindsight, "so be it" was not exactly precise language. I guess "so be it" to me means that I am not going to become a vicitim of what I see, I'm not going to be offended or ashamed of every thought that enters my mind in response to what I see, I am certainly not going to act on every thought that enters my mind.

 

Improve, learn, grow, change are good goals. I think the challenge for me at this point is trying to decide what growth and improvement mean in this realm. At one time, especially when I was single, I interpreted growth in this area to mean that, if I was truly righteous enough, I would stop having sexual thoughts, stop reacting at all to women, stop desiring sex -- essentially becoming asexual (as viewed in hindsight). I don't think the Church truly teaches that or ever intended me to believe that, but that was still the take home message that went home with me. In many ways, I have come to believe that growth and improvement in this area is less about having sexual thoughts and more about what we do with them (if that isn't cliche to the point of having no meaning).

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I have come to believe that growth and improvement in this area is less about having sexual thoughts and more about what we do with them (if that isn't cliche to the point of having no meaning).

 

Having a "thought" is doing something with "them" ("them" being more appropriately defined, I think, as feelings.)

 

We can learn to control our thoughts with time, effort, and practice.

 

But I know what you're getting at.

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Average Joe....I do look away, but, too bad the increase in need to do so. No need speaking to the Bishop as his daughters all wear the aforementioned attire. Heck, the SP's wife must spend an hour trying to paint on her jeans....

 

As time winds down the division between those who have oil in their lamp and those who don't will only become greater.

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You aren't seriously suggesting that we should identify anyone with a problem but the person who is unable to discipline his own eyes and appetites and desires, are you?    Strengthen your control over yourself.  Don't fault or point out or describe what you seek to avoid (partly because every time you do that,  you make it harder for yourself).

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Well...thoughts, I am glad you are able to discern my appetites and desires and I will take your counsel under consideration. Though, I think noticing a disturbing trend is hardly an admission of personal weakness on my part.

 

Joseph F. Smith must have suffered from the same lack of control that I suffer from:

 

I have another matter that weighs upon my mind . . . with respect to the women, and more particularly with regard to the manner in which they dress. Never, perhaps, at least within the period of my life--and I have lived in the world nearly seventy-five years--never, I say within the period of my life and experience have I seen such obscene, uncleanly, impure, and suggestive fashions of women's dress as I see today. Some of them are abominable. I lift my voice against these audacious practices and these infamous fashions . . . Joseph F Smith

 

 

I think Sister Bednar would likely be concerned with what my undisciplined eyes see as well:

 

"Young women, you have a responsibility not to invite unwanted thoughts into the mind of a young man by the way you dress;" Sister Bednar

 

Edited by bytor2112
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I feel that when immodest clothing is worn at church the bishop has a responsibility to do something about it.

 

It might be awkward.  Someone will probably get offended or upset, but when someone is wearing immodest clothing it screams "time for an interview with the bishop to get this fixed."

 

....and our bishop calls people out on it.  He has asked the YW president to give lessons on modesty.  The result is that we have few modesty problems in our ward and it is wonderful.  I really adds to the spirit along with the white shirts.

 

Oops.  Did I say that?  :-)

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Over the years of my experience and in my travels - I have come to realize that modesty is not always as clearly understood as we like to think.  Many times I wonder if the discussion, especially concerning women and modesty has more to do with men than it does women?  Regardless of how women adorn themselves some men will find ways to harbor unchaste thoughts.  That is one side - the other side is that often women - not just adorn themselves but act in ways that create a condition that is uncomfortable to many men that for a wide variety of reasons are tempted with unchaste thoughts.  On rare occasions ladies may present themselves in an effort to appear attractive but men and other ladies entirely misunderstand the motives.

 

One thing I have learned is that by telling a lady that she is dressed immodestly when they thought there were dressing modestly - is very embarrassing and often demeaning to the lady.  It is also counter productive when we as men speak in terms of modesty with our mouths but center more attention and focus our eyes and conversation on that which - at least in our eyes - is immodest.

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I feel that when immodest clothing is worn at church the bishop has a responsibility to do something about it.

 

This is not the bishop's responsibility. It also strikes me as a very bad idea for him to be one-on-one calling people to task for his idea of what's immodest. Bad, bad, bad idea.

 

The lessons on modesty, yes. Good idea.

 

Teach them correct principles. Let them govern themselves.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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I feel that when immodest clothing is worn at church the bishop has a responsibility to do something about it.

 

 

A one on one calling out is not appropriate for the bishop to do. If things are really bad I would get the relief society president involved on a personal level if I had to go that route. Shockingly women take this kind of thing poorly comeing from a man Bishop or not

 

 

 

 

....and our bishop calls people out on it.  He has asked the YW president to give lessons on modesty.  The result is that we have few modesty problems in our ward and it is wonderful.  I really adds to the spirit along with the white shirts.

 

Oops.  Did I say that?  :-)

I agree with this, let the YW pres and relief society presidents handle it.

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