Irishcolleen Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 If you only made it to the terrestrial or telestial kingdom would you feel like you had failed? If you aren't sure you would make it to the Celestial Kingdom, how do you handle that feeling of uncertainty? Anddenex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Making it to the Celestial Kingdom is a choice. It's not like winning the lottery. pkstpaul, Vort, Jane_Doe and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) I don't dwell on it, I try my best every day. I try to overcome my weaknesses and focus on the positive in life. I believe in a forgiving God and fully participate in the atonement of Christ (I need it). The chips will fall where they will, but I will have put forth my best effort. Edited August 31, 2015 by omegaseamaster75 clwnuke and Jane_Doe 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Depends on the day. I think most days I'm like omega--I just don't think about whether I'll "make" it or not--I'm just focusing on trying to do my best to be like Jesus. Some days, I am more spiritually thoughtful and try to determine if I'm "celestial material." But, then I think to myself that I certainly can't judge myself since I'm not God and don't have His knowledge. What I am certain of is that as long as I try my best to follow the commandments and stay true to my covenants, I will be saved in a kingdom and will be happy. clwnuke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 If you only made it to the terrestrial or telestial kingdom would you feel like you had failed? If you aren't sure you would make it to the Celestial Kingdom, how do you handle that feeling of uncertainty?worst case scenario you end up in the telestial...I hear it's still pretty good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 If you only made it to the terrestrial or telestial kingdom would you feel like you had failed? If you aren't sure you would make it to the Celestial Kingdom, how do you handle that feeling of uncertainty? Those who sit around worrying that they won't "make it" don't have a clue what they are even worrying about. The worry itself does not make sense. (That is one reason I hate the "make it" terminology; sounds like you're trying to meet the minimum requirements for SEAL training or something.) clwnuke, Desert Roses and Jane_Doe 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 The more I understand about the Atonement, the less I "worry". I used to quite a lot, but those were more childish worries related to low self-esteem. Now my effort is toward placing my trust in my Savior and trying to follow Him and reach out to Him, rather than worrying about being on a high enough rung of some ladder, as it were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrShorty Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 When I was young (and arguably less mature in the Gospel), I would worry quite a bit. I think the worrying started to turn around after reading articles like Stephen Robinson's "Believing Christ" https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/04/believing-christ?lang=eng As I studied and better understood the atonement and grace and faith and repentance, I became less worried. I do not think I will ever reach the point of "assurance of salvation" that I see and hear many Evangelical's talk about. I sometimes wonder if the more antinomian among them make it easier to interpret the "sola fide" theology as one where one can pray a sinner's prayer and never worry again. Since I do not believe in "sola fide" -- especially when it comes out as being very antinomian -- I find that there is always "some" worry. Such as, "what if I change my mind about this whole religion thing" in the future?" All I can do is my best in the here and now to demonstrate faith, practice repentance, exercise obedience, and continue learning and growing in the Gospel -- trying to immunize myself against future trials of my character. clwnuke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 I'm not sure wherein we feel so comfortable entirely denying our agency in this matter. Is not agency the right to choose eternal life or eternal damnation? Do we not have agency? Josiah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crypto Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) I'm personally more worried about having a desire to be celestial. From my standpoint on earth i've noticed traits, flaws, desires, in myself and others that I suspect wouldn't be welcome in the celestial kingdom (even if the goal is the celestial), that often times people don't seem willing to let go for something greater.If you have the will to sacrifice the lessor for the greater of the celestial, I think you'll be alright. Edited August 31, 2015 by Crypto Traveler, clwnuke and Josiah 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Where is anyone discounting agency? We do have to be doing our best to follow the Savior. That's a choice, and it's hard work sometimes. I don't think anyone is talking about the Protestant doctrine of just accepting Him as Savior. Of course we still understand that beyond that, we do our best to follow Him and become like Him. I'm just saying, if I don't achieve perfection as a visiting teacher or housekeeper or friend, I don't feel like I've doomed myself to not "making" it. I don't feel like I have to do a certain amount to deserve Jesus' grace. I just have to do my best, which changes from day to day and year to year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) I'm personally more worried about having a desire to be celestial. From my standpoint on earth i've noticed traits, flaws, desires, in myself and others that I suspect wouldn't be welcome in the celestial kingdom (even if the goal is the celestial), that often times people don't seem willing to let go for something greater.If you have the will to sacrifice the lessor for the greater of the celestial, I think you'll be alright. There are people that may think the Celestial Kingdom (heaven) is a choice of this life - I am not sure why someone would actually teach such a thing. It does not matter what you choose or what you do in this life the reality is that the only way we get to the Celestial Kingdom is through the atonement of Christ. I do not remember the critic - but a famous critic of Christians once said that Christians are a strange breed that spend their whole life thinking they want to go to heaven and have no idea what heaven is really like. It is like the kid that ask a college professor - "If you are such an expert in economics - why aren't you wealthy?" I like the method of Jesus - rather than telling everybody what to do to get to heaven he said - "Follow me!" I am not going to make it -- I have tried and done just about everything I can think of - but I am convinced that I always fall short. I think those that think exaltation is a choice - good luck with than. My question is - "If you know what to do and have it figured out - Why are you still here? My plan is to beg and plead mercy - realizing I'm not good enough. Edited August 31, 2015 by Traveler Desert Roses, Crypto and clwnuke 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 There are people that may think the Celestial Kingdom (heaven) is a choice of this life - I am not sure why someone would actually teach such a thing. It does not matter what you choose or what you do in this life the reality is that the only way we get to the Celestial Kingdom is through the atonement of Christ. I do not remember the critic - but a famous critic of Christians once said that Christians are a strange breed that spend their whole life thinking they want to go to heaven and have no idea what heaven is really like. It is like the kid that ask a college professor - "If you are such an expert in economics - why aren't you wealthy?" I like the method of Jesus - rather than telling everybody what to do to get to heaven he said - "Follow me!" I am not going to make it -- I have tried and done just about everything I can think of - but I am convinced that I always fall short. I think those that think exaltation is a choice - good luck with than. My question is - "If you know what to do, what choices to make and have it figured out - Why are you still here? My plan is to beg and plead mercy - realizing I'm not good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Where is anyone discounting agency? The discounting of agency, I believe, comes in the thoughts that say anything like unto not being sure about it. We can be sure. It's a simple as choosing. The "I don't know" idea is false. We have been asked to choose. We do or we do not. The implication that we don't know shows a misunderstanding that seems prevalent, that we have to be Celestial now in order to be sure. We do not. All we have to do is what has been asked of us. Choose. Obey. Repent. Try. If we are obedient, and repenting when we are not, we may be sure. That is my plain point. Saying, I don't know is equivalent to saying we don't have a say in the matter. We do. Absolutely, with no question, our salvation rides on our shoulders and ours alone. I know that's going to sound like I'm discounting Christ somehow. I am not. Christ bought our salvation. But that is done. The price is paid. He has already paid the full price for our salvation. By what He has done, we are saved. And that salvation is paid in full by Him alone. We do not buy it ourselves, nor can we. Now He asks us to come unto him and accept His atonement. That is on us. It is a free invitation to all, but it's still our choice to go or not. To use Uchtdorf's analogy of purchasing a plain ticket...Christ did. He paid the price. He owns the airport. The trip is free. But we still have to get on the plane. But one either chooses to get on the plane or not. If someone bought everyone a free ticket to Timbuktu and then someone asked, "are you going to Timbuktu?", the answer is either, "Yes" or "No". You either get on the plane and go or your don't. I suppose there's the "I'm not sure" by way of undecided. So if someone is undecided about whether they'll choose to go to the Celestial Kingdom, then the "I don't know" may have some validity (though if they die in that state, the undecided defaults to no). But that's not what I'm reading into the "I don't know" sort of thoughts. What it reads to me is more like some are implying, "I'm not sure If they'll let me on the plane". And that is false. I know it's not a perfect analogy, because getting on the plane is a one time thing. And enduring to the end is a lifetime thing. And we can choose to follow one minute and choose to not another. That's what repentance is for, of course. But the implication that because we're not perfect means we cannot know is a failure to understand the atonement and what has been asked of us. It's a choice, and it's our choice. Entirely. I, personally, wish people would move from "I'm trying my best, so...maybe", to "I'm trying my best, and that's what's been asked of me. So yes." To move from probably to positive type verbiage. It saddens me to see so many who do so much and try so hard and then still fear they are doomed. Why? Because we're afraid of appearing arrogant? Arrogant about what though? Christ did the saving. Josiah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 I, personally, wish people would move from "I'm trying my best, so...maybe", to "I'm trying my best, and that's what's been asked of me. So yes." To move from probably to positive type verbiage. It saddens me to see so many who do so much and try so hard and then still fear they are doomed. Why? Because we're afraid of appearing arrogant? Arrogant about what though? Christ did the saving.We can get on the plane, but we might get a parachute slapped on our backs and pushed out the back of the plane if we don't measure up. Christ did do the saving we need to make our best effort. Sometimes our best effort isn't good enough. I fall into the camp of I am trying my best and grace will make up the difference, but we can't know for sure. If you think your good to go that's fine. (Have you had your calling and election made sure and don't want to brag about it?) I'm trying my best and that's whats been asked of me. I hope that my best is good enough coupled with the Christs sacrifice to see me home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Sometimes our best effort isn't good enough. Our best effort is NEVER good enough. Not sometimes. Never. I fall into the camp of I am trying my best and grace will make up the difference, but we can't know for sure. Yes we can know for sure. Grace will make up the difference. His grace IS sufficient. Maybe the problem isn't people denying agency alone, but denying that His grace is sufficient. If you think your good to go that's fine. I think I'm good if and when I exert faith unto obedience and repentance. If I do not do these things then I'm not good. (Have you had your calling and election made sure and don't want to brag about it?) Don't be crass and cheap about this matter. It's about choice, not about arrogance. I am saying nothing about myself except that "if" I do what is asked of me then Christ's atonement is sufficient. If I do not, I will be damned. I'm trying my best and that's whats been asked of me. Then I will see you there, brother. (Assuming one of us doesn't stop trying our best.) Edit: see http://lds.net/forums/topic/57760-i-never-try-my-best-never/ Trying our best isn't what's been asked of us. Repenting has. Trying our best is implicit though. Edited August 31, 2015 by The Folk Prophet Desert Roses and MrShorty 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clwnuke Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 This is from the Book of Craig. It's in the Old Testament somewhere: "Wherefore will the Eternal Judge be merciful, and no man or woman shall be required to enter into any degree of salvation wherein they are neither comfortable or desirous to live the lifestyle of that kingdom. Therefore, those that love living a Celestial law shall enter into a Celestial glory, and those that love living a Terrestrial law shall enter into a Terrestrial glory, and those that love living a Telestial law shall enter into a Telestial glory, and those who don't care shall enter into Calculus 101 for ever and ever where there will be gnashing of teeth and limited texting." Don't worry. If your heart loves Celestial living then I think the proper place for you will be in the Celestial kingdom. There would be no justice or mercy in a plan that placed us where we would not be happy. In many respects, you will be the judge of where you properly belong as every knee will bow to acknowledge and confess that His evaluation of your heart is just and true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 This is from the Book of Craig. It's in the Old Testament somewhere: "Wherefore will the Eternal Judge be merciful, and no man or woman shall be required to enter into any degree of salvation wherein they are neither comfortable or desirous to live the lifestyle of that kingdom. Therefore, those that love living a Celestial law shall enter into a Celestial glory, and those that love living a Terrestrial law shall enter into a Terrestrial glory, and those that love living a Telestial law shall enter into a Telestial glory, and those who don't care shall enter into Calculus 101 for ever and ever where there will be gnashing of teeth and limited texting." Don't worry. If your heart loves Celestial living then I think the proper place for you will be in the Celestial kingdom. There would be no justice or mercy in a plan that placed us where we would not be happy. In many respects, you will be the judge of where you properly belong as every knee will bow to acknowledge and confess that His evaluation of your heart is just and true. There's only one problem with this as I see it. No one on the earth is born loving Celestial living. We all love Telestial living by nature. We are, by nature, carnal and devilish. We become Celestial, and learn to love Celestial living by our choices of obedience and repentance. And it takes time and effort and the grace of our Lord to do so. And any are capable of said choices. If we simply are what we are then God could have just assigned us. We choose to become what we choose to become. So yes, those who are Celestial will be there because they are, indeed, Celestial...but we need to be careful and not imply or teach that we have no control of whether or not we become this way or not. So the only real comment I'm contending against here is "don't worry" because therein is the implication (or inference, perhaps) that carries danger. Worry. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/philip/2.12?lang=eng#11 I have no delusions (contrary to what has been implied) that I am Celestial in my character and therefore just *sigh* "belong" in the Celestial Kingdom. I am, however, determined that I will work it out! I will continue to do what I can to humble myself and obey and follow and learn and grow and become what I must so that I can be where the Lord has told me He wants me to be, and where He has told me that I will have a fulness of joy. theSQUIDSTER, Vort and Josiah 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Those of us who think calculus is great fun know our place in the hierarchy. MrShorty, The Folk Prophet and Josiah 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clwnuke Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 There's only one problem with this as I see it. No one on the earth is born loving Celestial living. We all love Telestial living by nature. We are, by nature, carnal and devilish. We become Celestial, and learn to love Celestial living by our choices of obedience and repentance. And it takes time and effort and the grace of our Lord to do so. And any are capable of said choices. I agree wholeheartedly. Those of us who think calculus is great fun know our place in the hierarchy. Alas I confess that I am a science and math geek. But even those who enjoy it must confess that repeating Calc 101 for eternity might be slightly less than exciting?? :) The Folk Prophet and Jane_Doe 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 If I hate math, except as it relates to music and cooking, do I have to do it in heaven? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 My mission president would say, "Your best is not good enough and good enough is not your best!" We start by making a covenant with G-d. This is always done by one of his proxies that acts in his name. Beyond that - it appears to me that this life was designed to fail and we will constantly have to keep asking for help - just living up to our covenants. Some say it is a choice to be obedient. This thread goes a little beyond that. Not that we are making the wrong choice - that was not the question. I believe we beat each other up way too much. Someone feeling down goes to church or comes to this site and all they hear is stuff that makes them realize they have fallen short. Sometimes I say my goal is to comfort the affected and afflict the comfortable. That is what I think life is about. Those that are comfortable about making it - you really ought to rethink you life - perhaps you and I should have a serious talk. If you have this all figured out - you should show it better. Those that are not comfortable about making it - welcome to the club (church). I will be glad to walk with you in your journey - and perhaps from time to time - I can help you and you can help me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 If you have this all figured out - you should show it better. How? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) There is a really good book on this called "I'm not perfect. Can I still go to heaven?" by Anthony Sweat. Based on my current understanding on this topic, the Church is set up very well so one can kind of know how well they are doing. A real good guide to whether someone is worthy to go to the Celestial Kingdom is if someone has a temple recommend and is actually living worthily of it and endures to the end (since the recommend, in and of itself, is meaningless without the holder being truly worthy). Yes, some people with temple recommends will not make it for reasons explained below, but I think it is probable that a huge majority of recommend holders who are worthy will make it, assuming they stay worthy. The Terrestrial Kingdom is where basically good people go who are not otherwise worthy to go to the Celestial Kingdom, including perhaps a majority of Americans, maybe? Regarding church members, some things that I have heard will get you sent to the Terrestrial Kingdom include being inactive, failing to pay a full and honest tithe, breaking the word of wisdom, and being lukewarm (which I have heard is defined as members who completely and utterly refuse to do their share in furthering the mission of the work- e.g., utterly and completely refusing to magnify their callings). I wonder if pornography use, if unconquered, could lead here? The Telestial Kingdom is where the wicked go. You know... child traffickers, terrorists, murderers, drug dealers, gang members... at various times in history, this has been the majority in some places (e.g., the Nephites circa 400 ad, everyone in the world around the flood). As Mormons, the standard is higher and it is easier to wind up here if you are not careful, and I have heard it said that those who go to the temple, break the law of chastity, then never repent will likely find themselves here. Feel free to comment on the above! Edited August 31, 2015 by DoctorLemon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdowis Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) >>worry about going to the celestial kingdom There is a point system ==>> you have to get at least 11,535 points to get in. If you miss it by a couple of points, too bad. Anyway, stop worrying. Just keep track of your points. Edited August 31, 2015 by cdowis theSQUIDSTER and Vort 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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