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I'm going to be more direct, because I'm truly uncertain of what answers I'll get. Anyone can chime in, btw.

 

If a registered child sex offender comes to most churches these days, s/he will be expected to report their status to a leader. Most churches, mine included, will likely assign someone (we might use a deacon) to keep an eye on the individual.  S/he will be told where they can and cannot go, and it will be understood that they should never be in a room with a child, unless another adult is there.  I am told that these individuals are very thankful for the opportunity to worship in community, and that they are most willing to follow the protocols.

 

So...is this "profiling?"  Is this failing to let bygones be bygones.  Is this restricting the ability of some to become more like God? Or is this the strong members coming along side those who are weaker, to offer support?  Are we hindering, or are we moving the stumbling blocks out of the way, with this approach?

 

No.  This is not an atrocity commited to a specific individual who fails to forgive the other.  This is an action by a Church body to promote safe worship within its community to aid all worshippers in their own specific place in the journey towards Christ.

 

Now, let's say the person who he sexually abused attends this Church.  He sees the abuser and goes to the Church leaders asking that this person not be allowed in the Church building because he abused him... then that may very well be a sign that the person has not really forgiven the abuser and let bygones be bygones because he has "profiled" that specific abuser and acted to become a stumbling block to the abuser's desire to walk the path to Christ.

Edited by anatess
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Good post Traveler. 

 

I am sure that when we forgive we are not to remained stuck in the mindset of bitterness and being a victim.  

 

Totally agree.  Forgiveness truly brings healing and peace to the offended.  

 

When our memories bring pain and fear we will always remain in the bondage of victim-hood.

 

 

I'm wondering - how many folks suffering from PTSD-induced events from decades past have you known?

 

Because I personally know two - and I'm married to one - and neither of them are in bondage to victim-hood.   The other one is a Vietnam vet - temple worker - salt of the earth guy - one of the bigger spiritual giants I've known, although he would strongly object to the notion.  They tinkered with his medication last month, and he spent 3 days on his roof with a pistol in his mouth because he couldn't tell reality from memory.   He was paralyzed with the notion that if he fired upon the enemy that he could see, hear, and smell coming for him - he might hurt someone he loved.  Fortunately, his wife got back from her trip in time, talked him down, and he's better now.

 

This notion of victim-hood you advance, this notion that it's always - ALWAYS a matter of choice, well, Traveler, I love ya and respect ya man, but it's a lie from the pit of hell and you shouldn't believe it.  Memories bringing pain and fear = in the bondage of victim-hood?  No.  Maybe sometimes.  Maybe most times.  But not always.  

 

 

Obviously I am not smart enough or eloquent enough explain how repentance as a covenant with G-d will deliver a tender child of G-d from the pains of all levels that come from those that transgress against us

 

My wife has a gift to put complex things simply.  Here's what she says about such suffering, and the notion that we can always avoid it by living righteously:  "God didn't put you here to transcend your own existence."   There you go - smart and eloquent.

 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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I'm going to be more direct, because I'm truly uncertain of what answers I'll get. Anyone can chime in, btw.

 

If a registered child sex offender comes to most churches these days, s/he will be expected to report their status to a leader. Most churches, mine included, will likely assign someone (we might use a deacon) to keep an eye on the individual.  S/he will be told where they can and cannot go, and it will be understood that they should never be in a room with a child, unless another adult is there.  I am told that these individuals are very thankful for the opportunity to worship in community, and that they are most willing to follow the protocols.

 

So...is this "profiling?"  Is this failing to let bygones be bygones.  Is this restricting the ability of some to become more like God? Or is this the strong members coming along side those who are weaker, to offer support?  Are we hindering, or are we moving the stumbling blocks out of the way, with this approach?

 

I am all for forgiveness and being spiritually reborn (both for victims and offenders).  But it is a sad statistical fact that relapses do happen, and when it comes to sexual crimes the consequences of a relapse are extremely severe- destroying BOTH the victim and the offender.  Hence, it is for everyone's protection that someone whom was once a child-molestor is never allowed to be alone with children.  

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Something else came to mind as I read the replies to the OP's question.  Something that has helped me move on was the realization that I was worshipping the abuse of my childhood.  We are told: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.  I got to reading the talk by Pres. Kimball, "The False Gods we Worship."  It dawned on me that my childhood was a golden calf.  It so consumed my life as to place it before God.  I held on to the memory of the abuse I suffered and couldn't move on with my life.  I wasn't forgiving and I wasn't forgetting the pain of the abuse.  I used it as an excuse to not improve and grow.

 

This is what all victims of abuse must learn.  The forgetting part means to forget the pain of the offense.  Once this is done, the healing can begin.

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Good post Traveler. 

 

Totally agree.  Forgiveness truly brings healing and peace to the offended.  

 

 

I'm wondering - how many folks suffering from PTSD-induced events from decades past have you known?

 

Because I personally know two - and I'm married to one - and neither of them are in bondage to victim-hood.   The other one is a Vietnam vet - temple worker - salt of the earth guy - one of the bigger spiritual giants I've known, although he would strongly object to the notion.  They tinkered with his medication last month, and he spent 3 days on his roof with a pistol in his mouth because he couldn't tell reality from memory.   He was paralyzed with the notion that if he fired upon the enemy that he could see, hear, and smell coming for him - he might hurt someone he loved.  Fortunately, his wife got back from her trip in time, talked him down, and he's better now.

 

This notion of victim-hood you advance, this notion that it's always - ALWAYS a matter of choice, well, Traveler, I love ya and respect ya man, but it's a lie from the pit of hell and you shouldn't believe it.  Memories bringing pain and fear = in the bondage of victim-hood?  No.  Maybe sometimes.  Maybe most times.  But not always.  

 

 

 

My wife has a gift to put complex things simply.  Here's what she says about such suffering, and the notion that we can always avoid it by living righteously:  "God didn't put you here to transcend your own existence."   There you go - smart and eloquent.

 

 

 

Some scriptures directly addressing fear you may find interesting:

1 John 4:18

2 Timothy 1:7

 

In addition you may find the talk by Elder Bednar in April 2015 conference enlightening - an excerpt from that talk :

 

 

Trust and confidence in Christ and a ready reliance on His merits, mercy, and grace lead to hope, through His Atonement, in the Resurrection and eternal life (see Moroni 7:41). Such faith and hope invite into our lives the sweet peace of conscience for which we all yearn. The power of the Atonement makes repentance possible and quells the despair caused by sin; it also strengthens us to see, do, and become good in ways that we could never recognize or accomplish with our limited mortal capacity. Truly, one of the great blessings of devoted discipleship is “the peace of God, which passeth all understanding” (Philippians 4:7).

The peace Christ gives allows us to view mortality through the precious perspective of eternity and supplies a spiritual settledness (see Colossians 1:23) that helps us maintain a consistent focus on our heavenly destination. Thus, we can be blessed to hush our fears because His doctrine provides purpose and direction in all aspects of our lives. His ordinances and covenants fortify and comfort in times both good and bad. And His priesthood authority gives assurance that the things that matter most can endure both in time and in eternity.

But can we hush the fears that so easily and frequently beset us in our contemporary world? The answer to this question is an unequivocal yes. Three basic principles are central to receiving this blessing in our lives: (1) look to Christ, (2) build upon the foundation of Christ, and (3) press forward with faith in Christ.

Edited by Traveler
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1 John 4:18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

 

2 Timothy 1:7  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

 

Ultimately, you quote these scriptures as a way of advancing the notion that people would never experience fear if they would just X more.  (X = insert favorite gospel principle here: avail themselves of the atonement, or repent, or forgive, or keep the commandments, or fill themselves with love, or invite God into their hearts, or whatever.)

 

I just can't go there with ya, buddy.  The next time my wife sits bolt upright in bed at 3am, terrorized and flinching away from my touch, and needs 30 minutes to calm down and go back to sleep, I won't be telling her "ya know, if you'd just pray more, this would stop happening to you."

 

"But can we hush the fears that so easily and frequently beset us in our contemporary world? The answer to this question is an unequivocal yes."

 

Agreed - but elder Bednar is not describing all fears here.  Every year we learn more - and every year the picture looks more and more clear: PTSD episodes are caused by physical changes to the brain, often set in stone during the developing years of childhood and early adulthood.  As the brain ages, some pathways become permanent.  You get hardwired paths into the fight or flight centers of your brain, these paths get triggered in ways normal brains aren't.   Yes indeed, the atonement makes repentance possible and quells despair.  Wife goes through life enduring, not despairing.  And sometimes miraculous healing can occur - but not always.  My vet buddy is currently making his way through life with something slightly less than a sound mind - and it's not up to you or me to tell him he's not doing enough.

 

I still value, respect, and agree with most everything else you have to say Traveler.  Just not on this one.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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1 John 4:18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
 
2 Timothy 1:7  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
 
Ultimately, you quote these scriptures as a way of advancing the notion that people would never experience fear if they would just X more.  (X = insert favorite gospel principle here: avail themselves of the atonement, or repent, or forgive, or keep the commandments, or fill themselves with love, or invite God into their hearts, or whatever.)
 
I just can't go there with ya, buddy.  The next time my wife sits bolt upright in bed at 3am, terrorized and flinching away from my touch, and needs 30 minutes to calm down and go back to sleep, I won't be telling her "ya know, if you'd just pray more, this would stop happening to you."
 
"But can we hush the fears that so easily and frequently beset us in our contemporary world? The answer to this question is an unequivocal yes."
 
Agreed - but elder Bednar is not describing all fears here.  Every year we learn more - and every year the picture looks more and more clear: PTSD episodes are caused by physical changes to the brain, often set in stone during the developing years of childhood and early adulthood.  As the brain ages, some pathways become permanent.  You get hardwired paths into the fight or flight centers of your brain, these paths get triggered in ways normal brains aren't.   Yes indeed, the atonement makes repentance possible and quells despair.  Wife goes through life enduring, not despairing.  And sometimes miraculous healing can occur - but not always.  My vet buddy is currently making his way through life with something slightly less than a sound mind - and it's not up to you or me to tell him he's not doing enough.
 
I still value, respect, and agree with most everything else you have to say Traveler.  Just not on this one.

 

 

I do not think I disagree - in our mortal existence - regardless of our righteous repentance  we will suffer the wages of sin and we will all die.  The only way to overcome  these things is through Christ - anything we do is only temporary at best - a temporariness that without Christ and our repentance will be lost.  

 

But there is also another dimension to this that I have experienced - but to continue such experience is not possible in this mortal existence.  In short when one is filled with the spirit of G-d - fear is not possible.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

This is what all victims of abuse must learn. The forgetting part means to forget the pain of the offense. Once this is done, the healing can begin.

If that works for you and brings you peace then I'm happy for you. But I respectfully disagree that is true for all surivors.

Working through the pain is part of the healing process, and it takes time. How long it takes is different for each individual and dependent on so many factors...only couple of which are how severe the abuse was, who was the abuser, did the victim have anyone to turn to for support, how old was the victim when the abuse started, and how long did it go on? So many different factors to consider. For example being touched inappropriately by an older sibling is very different than being raped by one's father. Being physically abused is different than rape.

You (and others who share your opinion) can't just tell people to forget about their pain. A big part of the pain is often grieving the losses, and that takes as long as it takes. Would you tell Pres. Monson that he should forget the pain of losing his wife? Or a parent to forget about their loss child?

As survivors we (yes, I'm a survivor too, with PTSD and other mental, emotional and physical scars) need to support one another.

Finally, ditto to everything NeuroTypical said. Can his wife or friend "forget" their on going pain? No, no more than a cancer patient can wish away their tumor.

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It has been my observation that when there is pain (suffering) - something is wrong - even if it is in the process of healing.  But also it seems to me that as long as there is pain the healing is not complete.  But there is something else - sometimes when there is no pain - there still may be something wrong and sometimes - perhaps even often - when there is pain we tend to treat the symptom or the pain rather than the cause.

 

I actually found Vort's thread on never doing his best most interesting.  Perhaps the test of life is not pain and suffering but if we turn inward seeking some way to solve our problems or if we turn outward to lift others.  But it would appear that unless we understand the pain some are suffering - our efforts to help can add more to the pain than to help. 

 

The internet is such a cold place - and perhaps a poor substitute for human interface that helps heal deep wounds of lasting pain.  Last year I was involved with a car while ridding my bicycle.  I required a lot of help to heal and recover.  Because of my personality - it was more difficult to allow others to help than it was to endue the pain.  One of my biggest arguments was with a paramedic that wanted to take me to the hospital and refused to let me try to get back on my bicycle and ride home (BTW my bicycle was un-rideable).  When I got home my wife was furious and immediately took me to the hospital.  Sadly sometimes it takes a certain person to get through to us.

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But also it seems to me that as long as there is pain the healing is not complete. 

 

 

Indeed.  Sometimes, (not always, not most of the time, but sometimes), we can receive wounds in life that will never fully heal until after death.  

 

If you claim this status of 'wounded until death' as your right and refuse to heal, that's victimhood.  

 

If you're walking through life with your broken heart and contrite spirit, working out your salvation with fear and trembling, walking in the light of the Lord, and you find your wounds moving with you, well, if that's not enduring to the end, I'd like to see what is.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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  • 2 weeks later...

The Lord said He would forgive who He would forgive, but you are to forgive all men.

 

Perhaps the discrepancy here is that, you can forgive a person, but that's not to say anyone should stay in an abusive

relationship, be it physical, emotional or otherwise. Forgiveness is for us, our Heavenly Father knew it would canker our soul

and make us bitter.

 

Enduring abuse, with the long term effects such as PTSD, is not in anyone's control. However, there is psychiatric help along with meds that can help. I certainly am not an expert, but I am going through some PTSD symptoms myself as of late.

I am trying with all my might to get well, with the help of my Savior, I know I can!

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Guest LiterateParakeet

The Lord said He would forgive who He would forgive, but you are to forgive all men.

The Savior also said if someone offends you four times and does not ask forgiveness, don't forgive them just bring the offenses to Him and He will deal with it. That is certainly applicable to most cases of abuse. Check out D&C 98:44. Edited by LiterateParakeet
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Enduring abuse, with the long term effects such as PTSD, is not in anyone's control. However, there is psychiatric help along with meds that can help. I certainly am not an expert, but I am going through some PTSD symptoms myself as of late.

I am trying with all my might to get well, with the help of my Savior, I know I can!

 

Good psychiatry and psychology are of the LORD, because all good comes from God.  In the case of psychiatry, any good doc will do.  Those seeking talk therapy need more discernment.  Some therapists are Christian--even LDS.  Some incorporate 'New Age spirituality,' or even Buddhism into their practice.  Many, though, operate from a purely secular, post-modern perspective.  They use words like "non-judgmental," and speak of helping the client find his/her authentic path.  APA recommends that clients find therapists who match there worldview (i.e. religion).  I heartily concur. 

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Guest AnnieCarvalho

My father was not a good person.

I suffered from sexual and physical abuse until his death.

 

I have forgiven him, but I NEVER will forget.

 

The Lord has taken away the guilt, anger, and loathing I felt for him at one time, and I'm left with pretty much no feelings or thoughts at all regarding the man. 

 

I've moved on, except for occasional PTSD symptoms.

Though I can't always control the triggers, I do recognize them and I have learned to work through it.

 

Was I deeply wounded? 

Yes, but deep wounds heal in time, and though the scar remains as a reminder, the pain is gone.

 

It doesn't just automatically happen, the healing.

 

A person must be strong and take control.

 

I remember the moment it happened... 

A counselor said to me, "Do you realize that as long as you think of yourself as a victim, as long as you hate him, as long as you act out, your father is still in control?"  

 

And the lightbulb went on, and I made a CHOICE not to ever think of myself as a victim again.

I took control of my own life.

 

I prayed for strength,

I forgave him,

then I took a big old giant imaginary eraser and erased everything I could about him from my head.

 

And the healing began.

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My father was not a good person.

I suffered from sexual and physical abuse until his death.

 

 

Your father chose evil.  There is wisdom in not saying he was evil.  Such adjectives are God's to assign.  However, what he did was EVIL.  Parental trust broke.  A body, the temple of the Holy Spirit, was violated--a child's no less--kin no less!

 

May God continue to heal you, build strength in you, and use you as a testimony of his power over evil.  You are creating beauty from the worst of ashes.

 

With as much meaning as can be put into internet forum posts, I say:  GOD.  BLESS.  YOU!

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My father was not a good person.

I suffered from sexual and physical abuse until his death.

 

I have forgiven him, but I NEVER will forget.

 

The Lord has taken away the guilt, anger, and loathing I felt for him at one time, and I'm left with pretty much no feelings or thoughts at all regarding the man. 

 

I've moved on, except for occasional PTSD symptoms.

Though I can't always control the triggers, I do recognize them and I have learned to work through it.

 

Was I deeply wounded? 

Yes, but deep wounds heal in time, and though the scar remains as a reminder, the pain is gone.

 

It doesn't just automatically happen, the healing.

 

A person must be strong and take control.

 

I remember the moment it happened... 

A counselor said to me, "Do you realize that as long as you think of yourself as a victim, as long as you hate him, as long as you act out, your father is still in control?"  

 

And the lightbulb went on, and I made a CHOICE not to ever think of myself as a victim again.

I took control of my own life.

 

I prayed for strength,

I forgave him,

then I took a big old giant imaginary eraser and erased everything I could about him from my head.

 

And the healing began.

 

My experience with my father is very different - he was the greatest man I have know.  I have lived my life in his shadow never quite measuring up so I cannot really respond to your struggles with your father.  But as to repentance, forgiveness and forgetting I have a lot of experience.  It is my understand that repentance, forgiveness and forgetting is not a destination reached but rather a journey taken.  Perhaps you like me are still taking steps in your journey to become a better person - specifically through your covenant with G-d.

 

My father often advised me not to look at where a person had been (their past) or even where they are in life - but rather the direction they are going and what they are currently accomplishing.  Having traveled a particular path - you can be of great assistance to other struggling on the path you have traveled.  Your healing and strength is increased by helping those you know struggle has you have.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

My experience with my father is very different - he was the greatest man I have know. I have lived my life in his shadow never quite measuring up so I cannot really respond to your struggles with your father. But as to repentance, forgiveness and forgetting I have a lot of experience. It is my understand that repentance, forgiveness and forgetting is not a destination reached but rather a journey taken.

The relationship you have with your father is such a foreign idea for me. The closest I can get is seeing my husband with our children. I think they will feel about him as you do.

I love what you said about forgiveness being a journey. That is how I see it too.

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