Just a question about the Nephite Temple

[Average Joe]

2 Ne, 5:16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

 

Now of course there would be an altar and lavar in the outer court, and it would be fairly easy to recreate an altar of incense, menorah, and table of shew bread for the Holy Place; but what about inside the Holy of Holies?      

 

 

Inside the Holy of Holies was the Ark of the Covenant, and according to Paul the Ark contained the tables of the 10 commandments written by the finger of God, a bowl containing manna from heaven, and Aaron’s rod that budded.

 

 

Assuming Nephi also constructed an Ark, does anyone care to share a thought concerning what he might have put in it – if anything? 

[Vort]

"The manner of construction" would obviously not refer to such things as the ark of the covenant or the broken tablets of Moses. It sounds to me like Nephi was saying that he followed the scriptural floor plans for the temple of Solomon, leaving out perhaps the lavish gold, silver, and jewels (and obviously the irreplaceable unique items such as the ark of the covenant and Moses' broken tablets).

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

If he had consisted an ark perhaps they would keep the plates they got from Laban in there?

[The Folk Prophet]

As the ark was built primarily as a sort of component of a portable temple, it wouldn't make any sense to have an ark for what was a permanent temple. Solomon's temple, of course, added the ark because the ark already existed, was holy, etc.

[Just_A_Guy]

IIRC neither the temples of Zerubabbel or Herod had an ark; just a raised platform where the ark should have stood.

[Average Joe]

As the ark was built primarily as a sort of component of a portable temple, it wouldn't make any sense to have an ark for what was a permanent temple. Solomon's temple, of course, added the ark because the ark already existed, was holy, etc.

 

So your answer is no Ark nothing inside, That works.

 

A thought about "it wouldn't make any sense to have an ark for what was a permanent temple". 1 Nephi chapter 12 is all about the vision of Nephi's seed in the promised land and that they would basically be smitten and driven until they were finally destroyed. So, armed with this foresight, he may well have had reason to create an Ark to carry sacred objects. By the time of King Mosiah they had already left Nephi's temple behind..Just a thought.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Average Joe

[Average Joe]

IIRC neither the temples of Zerubabbel or Herod had an ark; just a raised platform where the ark should have stood.

 

No need for an Ark, no sacred objects stored is an OK answer.

 

A thought, Israel always rebuilt in Jerusalem. It was their "sacred city" so to speak. The Nephites didn't have "a" sacred city, they had a promised land. As I noted in another reply: "1 Nephi chapter 12 is all about the vision of Nephi's seed in the promised land and that they would basically be smitten and driven until they were finally destroyed. So, armed with this foresight, he may well have had reason to create an Ark to carry sacred objects." Just food for thought.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Average Joe

[Average Joe]

"The manner of construction" would obviously not refer to such things as the ark of the covenant or the broken tablets of Moses. It sounds to me like Nephi was saying that he followed the scriptural floor plans for the temple of Solomon, leaving out perhaps the lavish gold, silver, and jewels (and obviously the irreplaceable unique items such as the ark of the covenant and Moses' broken tablets).

 

Certain objects would certainly need to be retained for need such as a light source in the Holy Place, others for a symbolic need as they continued to follow the law of Moses, the table of shew bread and altar of incense. We don't have those things in our temples because we have the fullness of the restored gospel, the law of Moses having been fulfilled in Christ.

 

Since there is no way of knowing if the Holy of Holies was an empty room or not your answer is as viable as any other.

 

A last thought. Nephi did leave a clue in:

 

Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark. (2 Ne. 32:4)

 

Having the Melchizedek priesthood was that an allusion to the endowment ceremony in his day? 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I bet Nephi's temple had a baptismal font.  I remember an Ask Gramps answer that said something about that in Solomon's temple.  When Nephi said his temple was not as ornate, I wonder if that included/excluded the 12 oxen? 

[Average Joe]

If he had consisted an ark perhaps they would keep the plates they got from Laban in there?

If they had built an Ark the plates certainly might have been since they contained the genealogy. Other things that came into Nephite possession at various times included the Liahona, The Record of Ether, the Urim and Thummin, and the Sword of laban 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

If they had built an Ark the plates certainly might have been since they contained the genealogy. Other things that came into Nephite possession at various times included the Liahona, The Record of Ether, the Urim and Thummin, and the Sword of laban 

 

OH yeah! Good points.  I was going to add the stones turned to lights...then I remembered that was the Jaredites...oops.  

[Average Joe]

I bet Nephi's temple had a baptismal font.  I remember an Ask Gramps answer that said something about that in Solomon's temple.  When Nephi said his temple was not as ornate, I wonder if that included/excluded the 12 oxen? 

There was no baptism for the dead until after Christ's resurrection - 600 years after Nephi.

[Average Joe]

OH yeah! Good points.  I was going to add the stones turned to lights...then I remembered that was the Jaredites...oops.  

lol, good catch...wonder who has those things anyways? :)

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

There was no baptism for the dead until after Christ's resurrection - 600 years after Nephi.

I forgot about that.  You are right.  But they did have what we think of as baptismal fonts.  Gramps says:

 

Interestingly, they did have large fonts of water held on the back of sculptures of oxen, as our baptismal fonts do today (1 Kings 7: 23-26).  However these were for the Priests to be ritually washed.  Sacrificial animals needed washing as well.  Laver – Bible Dictionary

 

http://askgramps.org/33150/did-women-work-in-the-ancient-temples

 

lol, good catch...wonder who has those things anyways? :)

 

Good question.  Maybe Moroni.   

[Just_A_Guy]

No need for an Ark, no sacred objects stored is an OK answer.

 

A thought, Israel always rebuilt in Jerusalem. It was their "sacred city" so to speak. The Nephites didn't have "a" sacred city, they had a promised land. As I noted in another reply: "1 Nephi chapter 12 is all about the vision of Nephi's seed in the promised land and that they would basically be smitten and driven until they were finally destroyed. So, armed with this foresight, he may well have had reason to create an Ark to carry sacred objects." Just food for thought.

 

Then again, the Ark of the Covenant wasn't just a storage box.  Its lid was called the "mercy seat", and my understanding is that the two cherubim on it were carved in such a way that their outstretched wings formed a chair's back and arm-rests.  One of the Mosaic rites was that at certain times, blood from animal sacrifices was sprinkled on the mercy seat. 

 

The Ark of the Covenant was, at least symbolically, God's throne on earth.

[Blackmarch]

It probably would not have been an ark as that was a special case item that served multiple purposes. My guess is that it rather would be a seat of some kind that would take the place of where the ark was used.

[Just_A_Guy]

The LDS Bible Dictionary's entry for the Temple of Herod says I was wrong:

 

The temple, like that of Zerubbabel, had no ark. A stone was set in its place, on which the high priest placed the censer on the Day of Atonement. It followed the tabernacle (not Solomon’s temple) in having only one candlestick and one table of shewbread.

[estradling75]

The LDS Bible Dictionary's entry for the Temple of Herod says I was wrong:

 

The temple, like that of Zerubbabel, had no ark. A stone was set in its place, on which the high priest placed the censer on the Day of Atonement. It followed the tabernacle (not Solomon’s temple) in having only one candlestick and one table of shewbread.

 

 

If this is what they did then Nephi most likely did the same thing

[Traveler]

Anciently the term was not Ark but "ark of the covenant".  Ark in essence an ark is the means by which something is carried or contained.  The point here is that the ark of the covenant is the place for sacred artifacts created directly for sacred covenants one makes with G-d at the temple.  The items placed in the ark of the covenant are placed there by command and according to covenant.

 

It is my personal belief that the cherubim of the ancient ark of the covenant are symbolic references to the Messiah and Satan contending for the souls of man at the judgment seat of the Father.  The covenant being the way talked about in Genesis which is the way to the tree of life - and the cherubim (plural of cherub) that keep the way.   Most believe that the placing of cherubim is reference to singular something rather than plural or two but the term cherubim is without question a plural reverence that oversees the path or way to eternal life.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Traveler

[Vort]

Been thinking about this just a bit. A few things occurred to me.

 

Nephi was clearly a metalsmith, skilled at refining ores (including high-temperature ores such as iron) and also able to work gold and, presumably, silver and brass. But to my mind, it is not reasonable to suppose that Nephi alone, or even with the help of family members, reproduced the entire metallic inventory of the temple. The laver alone would have taken years to mine, refine, and create. Finding enough gold and silver for the implements would have been a huge task. Nephi probably carried some gold with him from Jerusalem, but as probably did not carry enough to make all the temple tools. The gold looks like it was primarily used for the records, not temple implements.

 

It also seems unlikely that Nephi would have kept the showbread as was done anciently. Given that they (apparently) did not have the Levitical Priesthood operating among them -- at least, I know of no mention in the entire Book of Mormon that they had any such thing, nor any Levites to exercise it -- the ordinances such as that of the showbread might not have been kept, or even necessary. Indeed, fulfilling such temple rites would have employed many priests in full-time labor on a rotating basis. I don't believe the Nephites, living a Robinson Crusoe-type life, would have had the luxury of providing such round-the-clock labor.

 

I am not sure what Nephi meant in his description of the temple, but I am of a mind that, whatever it was, it was a miniature version of the Jerusalem temple, both in size and in scope.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Vort

[hagoth]

...So, armed with this foresight, he may well have had reason to create an Ark to carry sacred objects." Just food for thought.

 

As some here may know, I am of the opinion (for many reasons), that a number of Nephites migrated to ancient northern Europe.

 

And it just so happens that there is an ancient account that traces to that region, a few generations after Hagoth, which tells of a steadying of the ark taboo strikingly parallel to that of the Old Testament.

 

Take it for what you will.

Edited October 3, 2015 by hagoth

[Average Joe]

The LDS Bible Dictionary's entry for the Temple of Herod says I was wrong:

 

The temple, like that of Zerubbabel, had no ark. A stone was set in its place, on which the high priest placed the censer on the Day of Atonement. It followed the tabernacle (not Solomon’s temple) in having only one candlestick and one table of shewbread.

lol, most of us call mis-remembering "old age" but in your case we'll go with "youthful good intentions gone awry"

[Average Joe]

As some here may know, I am of the opinion (for many reasons), that a number of Nephites migrated to ancient northern Europe.

 

And it just so happens that there is an ancient account that traces to that region, a few generations after Hagoth, which tells of a steadying of the ark taboo strikingly parallel to that of the Old Testament.

 

Take it for what you will.

sounds interesting, would you have a reference? :)

[Average Joe]

Nephi was clearly a metalsmith, skilled at refining ores (including high-temperature ores such as iron) and also able to work gold and, 

presumably, silver and brass. But to my mind, it is not reasonable to suppose that Nephi alone, or even with the help of family members, reproduced the entire metallic inventory of the temple. The laver alone would have taken years to mine, refine, and create. Finding enough gold and silver for the implements would have been a huge task. Nephi probably carried some gold with him from Jerusalem, but as probably did not carry enough to make all the temple tools. The gold looks like it was primarily used for the records, not temple implements.

 

I would think that most things were simply but expertly made being replaced over time with more ornate features as time and circumstance permitted.

 

 

It also seems unlikely that Nephi would have kept the showbread as was done anciently. Given that they (apparently) did not have the Levitical Priesthood operating among them -- at least, I know of no mention in the entire Book of Mormon that they had any such thing, nor any Levites to exercise it -- the ordinances such as that of the showbread might not have been kept, or even necessary. Indeed, fulfilling such temple rites would have employed many priests in full-time labor on a rotating basis. I don't believe the Nephites, living a Robinson Crusoe-type life, would have had the luxury of providing such round-the-clock labor.

 

Well, the Aaronic priesthood holders in my Ward are not direct descendants of Aaron.

 

The Melchizedek Priesthood holds the right of presidency, and has power and authority over all the offices in the church in all ages of the world, to administer in spiritual things. The second priesthood is called the Priesthood of Aaron, because it was conferred upon Aaron and his seed, throughout all their generations. Why it is called the lesser priesthood is because it is an appendage to the greater, or the Melchizedek Priesthood, and has power in administering outward ordinances. (D&C 107:8, 13-14)  

 

To your point on numbers. 

 

Wherefore, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did take my family, and also Zoram and his family, and Sam, mine elder brother and his family, and Jacob and Joseph, my younger brethren, and also my sisters, and all those who would go with me. And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words. (2 Ne. 5:6)

 

Given the limited number of people named in Nephi's record, did "all those who would go with me" include servants of Lehi's and Ishmael's houses...or perhaps members of some indigenous group at joined with the Lehites? Nephi later says:

 

And it sufficeth me to say that forty years had passed away, and we had already had wars and contentions with our brethren. (2 Ne. 5:34)

 

Personally its hard for me to picture fights between, at best, a couple dozen people on each side a war except in the "win or die" sense.

 

I am not sure what Nephi meant in his description of the temple, but I am of a mind that, whatever it was, it was a miniature version of the Jerusalem temple, both in size and in scope.

 

I think it was probably made out of wood as opposed to stone. a couple of men and a draft team clearing ground for fields could easily have killed to birds with one stone - clearing the field and prepping wood for the temple. Once they had enough lumber, they could have gotten together one day and done "a good old fashioned Amish barn rising" with minimal disruption of their day to day labors of life.

 

Just a few thoughts

[Average Joe]

It is my personal belief that the cherubim of the ancient ark of the covenant are symbolic references to the Messiah and Satan contending for the souls of man at the judgment seat of the Father.  The covenant being the way talked about in Genesis which is the way to the tree of life - and the cherubim (plural of cherub) that keep the way.   Most believe that the placing of cherubim is reference to singular something rather than plural or two but the term cherubim is without question a plural reverence that oversees the path or way to eternal life.

 

I like that symbolism, especially since it has Satan symbolically kneeling at the feet of the God of the Old Testament - Jesus Christ.