Preventing a shooting in an LDS meeting

[carlimac]

As far as I know there has never been a mass shooting in an LDS meeting. I know one bishop was shot and killed several years ago in his office or the foyer but I've never heard of more than one person being targeted. 

 

In light of the tragic shooting again yesterday in Oregon, how does the Church handle security for General Conference?

[Blackmarch]

As far as I know there has never been a mass shooting in an LDS meeting. I know one bishop was shot and killed several years ago in his office or the foyer but I've never heard of more than one person being targeted. 

 

In light of the tragic shooting again yesterday in Oregon, how does the Church handle security for General Conference?

mostly trusting God.. I do know that the prophet does have a security team but there is no checking at the door. I don't know how armed the security is.

[Traveler]

Besides having relationships with local authority to provide general security - the church has its own paid private security.  In addition there are service missionaries (unarmed) called and trained to screen all those attending - similar to airport security.  There are metal detectors and screening of carry items.  Firearms are not allowed except by previously screened security personal.

[Just_A_Guy]

I've gone through metal detectors at conference; but I don't remember whether they were searching bags in any meaningful way.

[Guest MormonGator]

Besides having relationships with local authority to provide general security - the church has its own paid private security.  In addition there are service missionaries (unarmed) called and trained to screen all those attending - similar to airport security.  There are metal detectors and screening of carry items.  Firearms are not allowed except by previously screened security personal.

 I'm glad they have armed security. Just being in positions of power they are magnets to unstable personalities with violence problems  

[NeuroTypical]

Preventing a shooting at an LDS meeting?  You mean like regular church meetings?  Our churches are gun-free zones.  Basically, we ask the good guys to be unarmed, we trust in God, we politely ask people not come shoot us in church, and we call the cops when we identify a threat. We take no other actions to ensure our safety.

 

From Handbook 2:

8.4.5  Firearms

Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law.

 

 

I suppose that means pepper spray and tasers are not inappropriate.  If I ever get a chance to meet someone high up in the church, this will be the thing I'd like to discuss.  There are a few points I'd like to make, and suggestions I'd like to suggest.

Edited October 2, 2015 by NeuroTypical

[carlimac]

 

Preventing a shooting at an LDS meeting?  You mean like regular church meetings?  Our churches are gun-free zones.  Basically, we ask the good guys to be unarmed, we trust in God, we politely ask people not come shoot us in church, and we call the cops when we identify a threat. We take no other actions to ensure our safety.

 

From Handbook 2:

 

I suppose that means pepper spray and tasers are not inappropriate.  If I ever get a chance to meet someone high up in the church, this will be the thing I'd like to discuss.  There are a few points I'd like to make, and suggestions I'd like to suggest.

 

 I'm mostly thinking about Conference this weekend.   

 

I've always been a bit puzzled by the signs on doors -not just on churches but medical offices and the like that say "Gun Free Zone".  I understand how they would be trying to prevent accidental shootings. But if someone is going into a place with intent to shoot, I doubt they are going to see the sign and say, "Oh woops, silly me. I guess I can't kill scores of people this way. I'll have to think of some other method."  

[Vort]

I've always been a bit puzzled by the signs on doors -not just on churches but medical offices and the like that say "Gun Free Zone".  I understand how they would be trying to prevent accidental shootings. But if someone is going into a place with intent to shoot, I doubt they are going to see the sign and say, "Oh woops, silly me. I guess I can't kill scores of people this way. I'll have to think of some other method."  

 

[carlimac]

Where did you find this?  I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets a kick out of it.  

[Guest]

I have a secret hope and suspicion that there are some guys in my ward that concealed carry.

[carlimac]

I'm pretty sure there are some in my Idaho ward, too. And we have an FBI dude in my DC ward. I don't know if he carries but he'd at least be helpful in a bad situation. My daughter is in Orrin Hatch's ward and there are security guys there on the back row every week. 

[NeuroTypical]

I'm halfway active in various LDS concealed-carry circles.  The policy in the handbook is often passionately discussed.  Here's a smattering of opinions on it:

 

* It says "carrying is inappropriate", not sinful, not prohibited, so I guess I'll just be inappropriate.

* I spoke to my bishop about it, and he's grateful to hear I'm willing to carry at church and fully supportive.

* I spoke to my bishop about it, and he confirmed I should not be carrying.

* As long as I raise my arm to the square and sustain my leaders, my gun won't be with me at church.

 

Basically, LDS conceal-carriers' opinions are all over the map on whether it's appropriate to carry at church or not.

 

Now, a local mega-church/homeschool co-op in my area had a mass killing a few years back.  They adopted a position I support and would like to see in our church:

- Strongly worded zero-tolerance policy regarding firearms.  Immediate consequences (sanctions, disciplinary action, suspension of students/termination of workers.  Immediate police involvement if a firearm is present.)

- Exceptions are on-duty police, licensed church safety persons, and others authorized and permitted under relevant state and county laws (here in Colorado, it's C.C.R.S. 18-12-203).

 

The policy helps those who think a written policy is the best response feel safe, because the policy is so strongly worded.  It also helps people actually be safe, by allowing authorized folks to carry.  

[pam]

Let me see if I can get in touch with a friend of mine and ask him.  He is the head of security for the Church for all of the western regions of the Church.  I've known him since we were teenagers in San Diego.

[Irishcolleen]

I think about 2/3s our congregation has a concealed carry permit.  After the shooting in Charleston, SC, our pastor said it was unlikely it would happen to us, but if it did, we were to duck behind the pews and that there would be return fire.  We have several cops and church and many gun enthusiasts. It is the south, after all. I think our church would be pretty safe.  All the NRA bumper stickers on church members' cars are a pretty good deterrent.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Irishcolleen

[mirkwood]

The Conference Center has numerous armed personnel inside and out. 

 

My ward has armed security every Sunday too.

[Still_Small_Voice]

At General Conference the church does not allow concealed weapon permit holders or the normal citizen to carry into the meetings.  I can guarantee you the last time I went that it was not a gun free zone.  There are armed personnel that carry concealed.  I knew someone that was in church security in Salt Lake City. (I used to work as an unarmed security officer.)  He said the church security carried 9 millimeter handguns.

 

They have law enforcement officers on site and they have other volunteers (usually former law enforcement) that carry firearms concealed.  If someone attempts a mass shooting at a General Conference they likely won't be very successful.

 

The church policy of no firearms at normal meetings bothers me.  I think there should be a few trained people who carry concealed.  Gun free zones keep no one safe except hostile intruders.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Still_Small_Voice

[carlimac]

At General Conference the church does not allow concealed weapon permit holders or the normal citizen to carry into the meetings.  I can guarantee you the last time I went that it was not a gun free zone.  There are armed personnel that carry concealed.  I knew someone that was in church security in Salt Lake City. (I used to work as an unarmed security officer.)  He said the church security carried 9 millimeter handguns.

 

They have law enforcement officers on site and they have other volunteers (usually former law enforcement) that carry firearms concealed.  If someone attempts a mass shooting at a General Conference they likely won't be very successful.

 

 

 

That's nice to know although it's still a little unnerving because it's such a big open space with people crowded close together. Not much room to duck if something started. 

[NeuroTypical]

Indeed.  The notion of the 'clear shot' includes somber realization that you have total responsibility for every single thing touched by a bullet that leaves your gun.  

[pkstpaul]

Gun free zones keep no one safe except hostile intruders.

The point of gun free zones it to keep irrational idiots from shooting someone because of an offense (argument). That and people who think they can handle a gun and shoot themselves in the bathroom, by accident. I'm all for gun free zones, as a deterent to idiots. Everyone knows they won't stop a mad gunman and that response to a mad gunman will not be a barrage of gun fire. The bet is that we are at threat more by idiots than mad gunmen. And with over 300,000 American gun deaths in the last 10 years, I would agree.

[Leah]

Having come from Judaism.....we always had heightened security measures for High Holiday services and other occasions of Jews meeting in large groups. (YMMV in the "liberal" end of the spectrum). In addition to obvious police presence, there would be a number of members who would conceal carry in addition to other methods of heightened awareness and plans for response. Protecting one's family and community with the use of firearms (if necessary) was not seen as a grievous sin.

While refusing to cower in fear, threats were taken seriously. Going down without a fight was not an option.

I worked for a time at a Jewish day school, which was across the street from the Jewish community center. We had regular visits from the FBI on credible threats and support on protection.

But something like what happened yesterday...how do you see that coming?

I would have NO issue with someone like Mirkwood carrying at church.

I also had a conversation today with a police officer who was shot in the line of duty...but my break is over!

[NeuroTypical]

The point of gun free zones it to keep irrational idiots from shooting someone because of an offense (argument). That and people who think they can handle a gun and shoot themselves in the bathroom, by accident. I'm all for gun free zones, as a deterent to idiots. 

 

Are you saying that there are irrational idiots in the ranks of conceal-carry permit holders?  Data indicate otherwise.

 

Or are you saying that non-permit holders who carry illegally where there is no sign, will somehow decide to not carry in places that have a sign?  Common sense would indicate otherwise. 

 

Help me make sense of your claim here, because I'm not seeing it.

[David13]

There are people who believe that police are "superior beings" and somehow are far more capable of handling firearms than ordinary citizens, even in those situations where the ordinary citizens train in the use of firearms far more than some or most police, some of whom  do not train at all.

They believe that any ordinary citizen in the US is only capable of shooting him/or/herself.  And could not possibly shoot in a tactical situation.

It is a false belief.

As to conference security, I will look tomorrow and Sunday (I'm now in SLC staying just across the street from the Temple, in fact, I can see it out the window).

And I'll report on what security I can see.  But it will probably be well hidden.  Discrete.

However, one thing I think the church does is sitatuional awareness.  When you come around, they look you over, talk to you, and thus may well get a good idea as to who is up to no good.

Hopefully.

Otherwise, I hope they are armed. 

There are good shooting cops, and bad shooting cops.  There are cops what shoot themselves.  And there are a whole lot of good shooting citizens.  Some of them train beyond what you could imagine.  And also may have police or military experience.

dc

[NeuroTypical]

My local small-town cops let me go shooting with them a few years back.  I was impressed with their skill.  They told me they practice monthly and must qualify quarterly.  They also team up with the our local small fire dept and have a rapid-response SWAT-type team that has responded various times in the state, sometimes beating local agencies to an active scene.  They taught the 'self defense in the home' class my wife took before she got her permit.  They were all totally supportive of citizens getting permits and arming themselves, voicing the notion "one of you may well save my life some day".  

[Guest]

The point of gun free zones it to keep irrational idiots from shooting someone because of an offense (argument). That and people who think they can handle a gun and shoot themselves in the bathroom, by accident. I'm all for gun free zones, as a deterent to idiots. Everyone knows they won't stop a mad gunman and that response to a mad gunman will not be a barrage of gun fire. The bet is that we are at threat more by idiots than mad gunmen. And with over 300,000 American gun deaths in the last 10 years, I would agree.

That's what I have understood the point of gun-free zones to be, too. I don't think very many people really believe that declaring a given locale a gun-free zone is going to deter a mass-murderer with a premeditated plan. At least this citizen never put forth that particular argument. 

[NeuroTypical]

So same questions to you, UT.starscoper:

 

Is your understanding that there are irrational idiots in the ranks of conceal-carry permit holders?  Data indicate otherwise.

 

Or is it your understanding that non-permit holders who carry illegally where there is no sign, will somehow decide to not carry in places that have a sign?  Common sense would indicate otherwise.