Diversity?

[Latter Days Guy]

saw this article when I did a google news search, its an interesting read.  Do you think that it makes a fair point? That the Church is now a growing global entity but is still lead by white Americans, particularly Utah born?  I kind of agree that a more culturally diverse leadership would be great, but then Heavenly Father calls the person he wants. 

 

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3029168-155/commentary-mormon-church-misses-chance-to

 

 

[RMGuy]

I would have loved to see individuals called from Africa, South America, Asia...but it's not my church.  

[NeuroTypical]

Want a New Apostle With A Diverse Background? He’s Already There

 

Heh.  You're a child of Swedish immigrants, spend age 10-13 living in Sweden and Finland, don't learn English until your teens, be bishop in a new inner-city ward in Baltimore, and spend 5 of your last 6 years in Africa, and the SLTrib says you're a generic white boy from Utah.

 

Yeah, Heh.  That's the right word here.  Not black or brown enough to be considered 'diverse', right?  You know how that sounds, right?

 

(Nobody on this thread has mentioned skin color, but it does kind of beg the question, right?)

Edited October 7, 2015 by NeuroTypical

[Ironhold]

Wow but the author's a whiner.

"We don't have anybody who could satisfy the politically correct crowd, so something must be wrong with the senior leadership!" seems to be the author's basic thesis.

We don't know why God called these three people, but the author is more than willing to declare a reason:

 

It is the combination of divine inspiration and human agency working together that makes a calling happen. When we issue callings in the church, we do so under the guidance of prayer and the Spirit's leading, but our own experiences and inclinations factor in as well.

That's right: the author thinks that the apostles were called in large part because of a desire to keep the church leadership white and male.

They haven't even been in office a week. Let's give them a chance to show off what they can do for the church.

And as far as diversity goes - I can rattle off story after story where "diversity for the sake of diversity" backfired spectacularly. I'm a business type, and so I've studied the issue a lot as part of workplace controversies.

[Guest]

Hah hah.  Yeah, unluckily for Czech-born and German-raised President Uchtdorf, even if he hasn't lived in the US until he got called as an apostle, he's still not diverse enough because he's white bread white.  So he's gotta be a Utahn white boy.

 

People, I tell ya.  Do you know that in the companies my husband worked for, they get Diversity Management Training in which they are blatantly taught to hire the "colored" or female or LGBT  person even if their resume is not as impressive as the white or Asian dudes?  Yeah, drives me bananas too that Asian is not diverse enough for the American workplace either.  Too many East Indians, I guess.  But yeah, you're supposed to be able to tell that a person is LGBT in a behavioral or technical interview... they actually get trained for that.  And, as long as their resume meets the basic requirements for the job, they get preference over the white boys.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the white boys start to make up the majority of the line in soup kitchens nationwide.

[Ironhold]

Hah hah.  Yeah, unluckily for Czech-born and German-raised President Uchtdorf, even if he hasn't lived in the US until he got called as an apostle, he's still not diverse enough because he's white bread white.  So he's gotta be a Utahn white boy.

 

People, I tell ya.  Do you know that in the companies my husband worked for, they get Diversity Management Training in which they are blatantly taught to hire the "colored" or female or LGBT  person even if their resume is not as impressive as the white or Asian dudes?  Yeah, drives me bananas too that Asian is not diverse enough for the American workplace either.  Too many East Indians, I guess.  But yeah, you're supposed to be able to tell that a person is LGBT in a behavioral or technical interview... they actually get trained for that.  And, as long as their resume meets the basic requirements for the job, they get preference over the white boys.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the white boys start to make up the majority of the line in soup kitchens nationwide.

Yeah...

Frankly, what I care about is whether or not a person can do the job. Everything else is secondary.

[NeuroTypical]

How about this - I'll help y'all move the conference center and church HQ to Guatemala.  Within 3 generations, we'll have a mostly-Guatemalan quorum of the 12, and I'll still be happy because the church is still led by Christ and His apostles. 

[pam]

What do you expect from the Salt Lake Tribulation?

[Guest]

I thought the point was to be color blind.  As a minority myself I don't care what color anyone is.  And I don't keep score.  It's not a racial competition.  To be disappointed (but not disaffected) is still saying "disappointed".  You're disappointed at apostolic callings because they're white.  And the author is crying racism.  Wow.

 

As far as internationality, there are plenty of general authorities who are from other countries.  The author even points this out.  But he is placing diversity on a higher plane than the qualifications of the calling.  And there are perfectly sound reasons for having US or even Utah based individuals being called to apostleship.

 

1) Apostles are required to be in SLC much of the time.  To uproot someone and move them to the US is a very difficult thing on both ends (the Church as well as the individual/family). 

2) One of the primary duties of an apostle is to give speeches.  So, English is still the dominating primary language.  Yes, more people speak Spanish, but this includes missionaries and so forth where it is not their primary language.  (correct me if I'm wrong on that).

 

There are two more reasons that I can think of.  But being both my personal opinions and likely to be unpopular, I won't go into those.

 

What disappoints me is that if I get a position, I want to know that I got it because I was the best person for the job.  In other words --  the content of my character rather than the color of my skin.  To look for someone who is NOT white for a position is just as racist as looking for someone who IS white.  And that is exactly what these calls to diversity and affirmative action are.

 

Hypocrisy anyone?

[omegaseamaster75]

I was hoping that they might sprinkle some pepper in that sea of salt, but it's not up to me.

 

I do find it interesting that the majority of leadership are from Utah. Like any big Corp you go with who you know.

[Ironhold]

From the "Diversity for the sake of diversity" files -

[1] The Economist: "La Vie En Rose". In 2010, France passed a law requiring that 40% of the members of all corporate boards be female... never mind the fact that France did not have enough qualified, experienced female business or industry leaders to meet that goal. Instead, companies decided on a short-term fix that consisted of nepotism and hiring "decorative" women who would allow the men to handle all of the real business.

[2] Jayson Blair. Fellow New York Times staffers pretty quickly figured that Blair was a plagiarist, but most were too afraid to say anything because executive editor Howell Raines was so committed to having a "diverse" staff that they were afraid of having their careers ruined by questioning the integrity of Raines' poster child.

[3] Ricci v. DeStefano (aka "The New Haven Case"). The fire department in New Haven, Connecticut, was looking to promote 18 people. The promotions would be based on who got the highest scores on a test. 17 of the 18 were white (one had a learning disability), and the other individual was Hispanic. When the city realized that no blacks had made the cut, they declared this to be de facto proof that the test was discriminatory and threw out the results. This case, coupled with her "Wise Latina" comments, nearly derailed Sonia Sotomayor's appointment to SCOTUS as she was one of the judges who ruled against the firefighters in the lower courts.

[4] Gratz v. Bollinger. The University of Michigan required that all students wishing to enter the school had to first take an entrance examination; you needed to get 100 out of 150 possible points to pass. Thing is, African-American, Hispanic, and Native American students were spotted 20 points simply for their race; this was a higher bonus than for a perfect SAT score, which was only 12 points. This meant that members of these minority groups could hypothetically get in ahead of higher-scoring whites and Asians simply because of their race.

Yeah.

I could go on, but I think these four incidents help explain why "giving someone preferential treatment on the basis of color or gender can potentially backfire spectacularly, not least of which by being discriminatory against other groups".

[pam]

It comes down to do you believe apostles are called of God or do you believe they are called of man?

 

I truly believe they are called of God and I never felt that more strongly in my life than I did this last weekend.  God called these men.  It was not a decision made by man.  The Lord called people that He needed at this time.  The three apostles that were sustained this last weekend are the men that the Lord needs at this time to move His work forward.

 

The Lord doesn't base His decision on the color of their skin or where they come from or currently live.

 

So again...the question remains.  Do you believe apostles are called of God or called of man?

[NeuroTypical]

I remember through the '90's, one arm of the federal Equal Employment Opportunity Council was actively suing companies for having workforces that didn't racially match the demographics of the surrounding area.  Korean family-owned grocery stores got sued because the neighborhood was half latino and the rest black and white, but they had mostly Koreans.  That sort of thing. 

 

I think they finally got shut up, when someone used them to file a lawsuit against themselves, because most of the govt workers in the EEOC office were white, in a town full of blacks and hispanics.

[Ironhold]

Back when I was doing my undergrad work, I had to take two semesters of "Introduction to Business and Personal Law". The New Haven decision came down during the semester, and so we wound up talking quite a bit about matters in class.

[SGoodman]

Some random thoughts on the matter. I'll make an effort to pull them together into a cohesive format.

Most of the comments at least touch on the fact that we believe God is in charge and calls who He will. Those who voice disappointment or chagrin at the choices made try to downplay that doctrine.

The Church of today is, organizationally, very different from the Church in 1850 or in the time of Christ. The skill set required is very different so it isn't useful to compare today's Apostles to those in past eras. The vast majority of men who have decades of experience in Church service at various levels are white. That's today's talent pool. Thirty years from now there will be a whole new crop of men who have thirty years experience and who come from all over the globe.

And the last, most important point that I've heard on the subject is this. The detractors suggest that the Apostles should represent the racial and cultural diversity that exists in a global church. Nope. The Apostles are not called to represent us to the Lord. They are Christ's representatives to us.

[Guest]

I don't give even the tiniest grain of salt to anything published in the SL Tripe. 

[Guest MormonGator]

I hate to be cynical, but generally when people say they like "Diversity" they don't know what the words mean. They are skin deep, they don't really want diversity of thought

[Bini]

Diversity doesn't need to equate to differing skin colour but visually seeing different ethnic races on stand would definitely bring variety and perhaps bring cultures together. Even if two Asians were up there, and both American born, the mere fact that they aren't Caucasian would have its own affect.

[Guest]

My view (based upon very positive experiences) about diversity, even "for it's own sake" is very favorable. I didn't have the blessing of knowing anyone who wasn't as white as me until I was about 16. Even then it was very limited. My mission experience was when I really had the opportunity to meet people who thought (and looked) very different from those who had surrounded me during my youth. After my wife and I moved to the left coast I had the refreshingly great pleasure of working in environments where my "color", my world-view, my religion. my thinking, etc. were not the majority. It was great, and I have known so many beautiful people that I can only thank Heavenly Father.

[Vort]

saw this article when I did a google news search, its an interesting read.  Do you think that it makes a fair point? That the Church is now a growing global entity but is still lead by white Americans, particularly Utah born?  I kind of agree that a more culturally diverse leadership would be great, but then Heavenly Father calls the person he wants. 

 

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3029168-155/commentary-mormon-church-misses-chance-to

 

 

To the surprise of absolutely no one, this is authored by Jana Riess. who never met a leftist political angle she didn't like. Honestly, I think the approbation of Jana Riess and others of her ilk might signal far worse things than their irrelevant and whiny criticisms.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Vort

[Guest MormonGator]

Diversity is a word like tolerance. It means something totally different than what society claims. Tolerance implies disapproval. IE-I tolerate mashed potatoes but I don't like them. If served to me I'll eat them because I don't want to insult the person who cooked them, but I still don't like them. 

 

Diversity is the same. Colleges preach diversity but if you are not a leftist you better shut up about it.  I know this firsthand. 

Edited October 7, 2015 by MormonGator

[Traveler]

I think the church needs to become more diverse.  However, I do not think this means what most think it means.  One of the greater efforts for diversity is to call missionaries to cultures to which they are unfamiliar.  I believe one of the greatest and more positive influences for diversity within the LDS community is to extend calls of missionary service to the young ladies of the church.  I believe this to have a far more positive experience in diversity than the calls of apostles.

[Guest MormonGator]

I think the church needs to become more diverse.  However, I do not think this means what most think it means.  One of the greater efforts for diversity is to call missionaries to cultures to which they are unfamiliar.  I believe one of the greatest and more positive influences for diversity within the LDS community is to extend calls of missionary service to the young ladies of the church.  I believe this to have a far more positive experience in diversity than the calls of apostles.

 My concern is that they will water down the teachings in the name of "diversity" 

[omegaseamaster75]

I think the church needs to become more diverse.  However, I do not think this means what most think it means.  One of the greater efforts for diversity is to call missionaries to cultures to which they are unfamiliar.  I believe one of the greatest and more positive influences for diversity within the LDS community is to extend calls of missionary service to the young ladies of the church.  I believe this to have a far more positive experience in diversity than the calls of apostles.

I think that the church should be representative of the people that they lead. Leadership should be a reflection of this. I sustain our leaders, but we are not a SLC church anymore we are global.

[Guest]

I think that the church should be representative of the people that they lead. Leadership should be a reflection of this. I sustain our leaders, but we are not a SLC church anymore we are global.

 

Yes.  Therefore, the Prophets, under God's direction, called Elder Renlund who served for years in the Africa South Area and Elder Stevenson who spent almost a decade serving in Japan and Elder Rasband who served years in North America as well as Central Europe.

Edited October 7, 2015 by anatess