Mass Murders

[Guest]

This is about reducing the numbers of mass murders committed with guns. But set aside any arguments for or against gun control. For the sake of this thread gun control is out of the question. If it is even possible to substantively reduce the numbers of mass murders in the U.S., what courses of action would do it without creating other more egregious problems.

[NeuroTypical]

Strengthening the family would all but solve the problem.

 

Everyone gaining a testimony of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ would pretty much solve the problem too.

[Ironhold]

Something that people don't want to admit is that there's a recurring theme among mass murderers in the United States: mental illness.

Charles Whitman himself recognized that he was becoming erratic, and his autopsy discovered a tumor that could have been causing it.

The University of Virginia shooter was known to be mentally ill even as a child, but his parents refused to have him institutionalized because they feared being stigmatized.

Ft. Hood (2009) demonstrated signs of mental instability and religious radicalism, but his co-workers at Walter Reed were afraid that if they reported him then they would be branded as "racist" (a career-killer in the military).

Ft. Hood (2014) was flagged as being mentally ill, but the paperwork to deny him gun ownership didn't get passed around in time to stop him from making the purchase.

The Luby's shooter showed signs of being psychotic and had some massive rage issues, especially towards women.

The Sandy Hook shooter had been flagged as mentally ill and so denied the right to own guns, but his mother circumvented the ban by buying the guns for him.

The Columbine Kids were known to be mentally ill and were receiving treatment at the time. However, their doctor gave them medicine for an "off-label" use, medicine that was known to cause psychotic episodes in minors.

Et cetra.

What we need is a multi-pronged approach to address this issue. One prong is the "See something, say something" movement meant to get people paying attention to those around them in order to see who might need help. Another prong involves helping educate people in order to remove the stigmas surrounding mental illness and seeking treatment. The third prong, obviously, involves overhauling the nation's mental health care system. The fourth one would be to discourage doctors from off-label prescriptions unless they feel it's absolutely necessary.

[Guest]

Strengthening the family would all but solve the problem.

 

Everyone gaining a testimony of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ would pretty much solve the problem too.

What do you mean by strengthening the family? Can you explain how it would solve the problem? Given the ratio of numbers of people with a the testimony you described to those without tell me how you think it is a reasonable solution. 

[Bee Sweet]

I wish this nation would be pro-active rather than re-active. How many theatre shootings, school shootings, military base shootings, etc., are we going to have before something is done? I'm sure there are plenty of veterans who would accept security

positions in these various places. Why do we have to be sitting ducks? I don't know that mental profiling would be beneficial.

[Backroads]

I like to think strengthening the family would in itself resolve the mental illness issue (yes, I think fixing both would by and large solve the problem). Ideally, a greater strengthening of the family would create bonds of helping each other, which would lead to greater community care (I find communities to be a family of sorts), which would lead to greater help for those dealing with mental issues.

 

I think our divisiveness is such a root of this problem. Families are considered dangerously old-fashioned, we are trained to spy and call the cops on our neighbors, we distrust those in our communities who are the slightest bit different so they can't seek needed help... yes, Satan is in full force here.

[Crypto]

There have been psychology studies that indicate the way and frequency the media present these news stories can vastly affect the number of mass killings there are. I'll have to dig up some sources when I have the time.

Long story short, the more wide spread and 'glorified' (a sick and perverse sense of glorified) that these events are broadcast increases how much it happens. It is becoming (or has become) a culture...something not seen as much else where.

[Edit]
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/crucial-conversations/201204/the-media-is-accomplice-in-school-shootings

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0117259

http://www.claytoncramer.com/scholarly/JMME2.htm

Edited October 9, 2015 by Crypto

[NeuroTypical]

What do you mean by strengthening the family? Can you explain how it would solve the problem? 

Humans are driven by their need to love and be loved, to have acceptance.  Our prisons and gangs are full of people who have struggled with legitimate ways to find those things.   Most of 'em got wired that way while their brains were still forming, in their families and peer groups.  Disconnected, unloving, or missing parents.  The rule of the jungle with their peers.  They figure either they're not worthy of love, or people aren't able to give love, or both.  They figure gaining respect or status is the best they can hope for, and they learn ways to force it from people.  Add two loving parents, who have internalized and practice the lessons in the Proclamation on the Family, and problem is mostly solved.   

 

"Given the ratio of numbers of people with a the testimony you described to those without tell me how you think it is a reasonable solution."

 

You didn't ask for reasonable.  You asked "If it is even possible to substantively reduce the numbers of mass murders in the U.S., what courses of action would do it"

 

And it's true - a population full of disciples of Christ is a population where mass-killings are much rarer than they are today.  If you want to argue that such a population is not reasonable - we'll never have it - well, you're arguing not with me, but with our church's focus on missionary work.  

[Guest]

I agree with God and Families.  Big time. 

 

People will not value Life if they feel their own Lives do not have value.  This includes people with psychological illnesses.  The first sense a child gets that he has value is from the way the mother valued the child.

 

Now, value is interesting... Man has this powerful rational brain.  He starts to ask - why does life have value?  Does my life have value simply because I'm human?  Why can I kill a fish and eat it, but I can't kill a human and eat it?  What value does a human have over a fish?

 

Does my life have value because I can think?  So those humans who are more intelligent have more value than the village idiot?  Can I eat the village idiot?

 

Does my life have value because I feel love or pain?  So, if the person I love doesn't love me back, can I eat him?

 

See, the value of life is inalienable only for those who believe that we are Created by a Higher Power who created every person in His own image.  The One True God.  The more people feel far removed from this Higher Power, the higher the chance of them assigning ZERO value to life - whether they assign no value to their own life, or no value to other people's life or specific people's life.

 

It is no accident that extremists supreme leaders of Islam can send an army of young men to chop off the heads of other men.  They have been led to believe that their God assigns no value to people that are not followers of Islam.

 

It is also no accident that the USA has remained the beacon of freedom.  The drafters of the US Constitution all believed in the One True God and the Constitution was drafted to protect the value that God has for all people.

 

The Family is the pattern by which we experience God.  Break the family and that experience becomes much harder to come by.  Even people with mental illness has a bigger chance of overcoming the challenge when they are surrounded by the support of Family who understands and cares for their well-being.

[Guest]

 

What do you mean by strengthening the family? Can you explain how it would solve the problem?

Humans are driven by their need to love and be loved, to have acceptance. Our prisons and gangs are full of people who have struggled with legitimate ways to find those things. Most of 'em got wired that way while their brains were still forming, in their families and peer groups. Disconnected, unloving, or missing parents. The rule of the jungle with their peers. They figure either they're not worthy of love, or people aren't able to give love, or both. They figure gaining respect or status is the best they can hope for, and they learn ways to force it from people. Add two loving parents, who have internalized and practice the lessons in the Proclamation on the Family, and problem is mostly solved.

 

I agree with all this. And it would be a great place to begin if we were talking about the problem of how to keep a young man out of gangs. Since we’re talking about Mass Murders (and maybe I’m wrong for taking it for granted that we would both be thinking about such mass murders as the ones at schools being discussed in other threads) are you saying also that having two loving parents would prevent these mass murders, or that the absence of sufficient love from two parents is a root cause of mass murders which our country can address?

Edited October 9, 2015 by UT.starscoper

[Guest]

And here's another one about Families.

 

Families is where we learn to make mistakes and forgive mistakes.  Families is where we learn that even when our parents and siblings harm us in their moments of weaknesses, we can still pull together and overcome the transgressions, no matter how extreme.  It is also where we learn that even when WE make extreme mistakes in our moments of extreme weaknesses, we can still be loved.

 

So yeah... the divorce rate, even in our ward, pain me.

Edited October 9, 2015 by anatess

[Guest]

...  

 

"Given the ratio of numbers of people with a the testimony you described to those without tell me how you think it is a reasonable solution."

 

You didn't ask for reasonable.  You asked "If it is even possible to substantively reduce the numbers of mass murders in the U.S., what courses of action would do it"

 

And it's true - a population full of disciples of Christ is a population where mass-killings are much rarer than they are today.  If you want to argue that such a population is not reasonable - we'll never have it - well, you're arguing not with me, but with our church's focus on missionary work.  

Yes, you caught me in a failure to anticipate some of the different ways the conversation could go, and my weakness in making myself as clear to others as the original post seemed to be in my own mind. So, possible and impossible are probably not clear words for me to resort to. And since conversations do develop, now I'm asking about reasonableness. I have no argument with the Church missionary work. I trust that some day in the future the stone cut without hands will fill the Earth. My intent in starting this thread in the first place is to talk about the U.S. here and now, and in the near future meaning your and my lifetime and extending on to the lifetimes of our grandchildren. I personally don't think it is much more than wishful thinking to talk of our country enjoying the solution to mass murders that would come from everyone having a testimony. So, I'm still left at post #1 wondering what can be done. 

[Guest]

And here's another one about Families.

 

Families is where we learn to make mistakes and forgive mistakes.  Families is where we learn that even when our parents and siblings harm us in their moments of weaknesses, we can still pull together and overcome the transgressions, no matter how extreme.  It is also where we learn that even when WE make extreme mistakes in our moments of extreme weaknesses, we can still be loved.

 

So yeah... the divorce rate, even in our ward, pain me.

So what can we do toward a hope to see a reduction in the numbers of mass murders in the U.S.? 

[NeuroTypical]

Since we’re talking about Mass Murders (and maybe I’m wrong for taking it for granted that we would both be thinking about such mass murders as the ones at schools being discussed in other threads) are you saying also that having two loving parents would prevent these mass murders, or that the absence of sufficient love from two parents is a root cause of mass murders which our country can address?

 

I'm defining 'mass murders' as any killing of 3 or more people in a single incident.  Domestic 'murder/suicides' and big gang killings count too.  Even all put together, they make up a tiny minority of all killings in the US, but this is your thread, so here we are.  

 

I don't know about the Columbine killer's upbringing and parents, or the guy that shot up Sandy Hook, or the Aurora theater killer, or the recent guy in Oregon.  But I do know the culture they grew up in, and what this culture says about the importance of the family, and where to get your acceptance and respect.  I know the Columbine kids spent a major portion of their free time engaging in the exact opposite of 'wholesome recreational activities'.  

 

Not going to voice judgment on anyone's parenting skills - don't have the tools to do so righteously (or even accurately).  But I stand by my claim.  Having strong families, and having a culture where strong families are honored and the norm, would get you what you want.

[pkstpaul]

Strenghtening the families creates a bond that makes people responsible for each other. A good parent knows when a child is sick - regardless of age. They know what's going on in their lives even if they don't like it. They are involved. Same with siblings. If we cared for each other we would see the warning signs of trouble and we would help each other.

 

As a parent, I have had to assist my children as they struggled with young adulthood. I saw specific times when I wasn't as involved and they acted irresponsibly. If I had been closer, I would have prevented some issues. I have spent far more money than anybody would think rational to assist "adult" children so as to keep them on a narrow path.

 

We can say there is personal accountability, yes, of course. But we can't talk about how the eternal plan is for families and then step away from our children as they become adults.

 

It is easy to see how a parent being more involved might have helped the theater shooter and the Oregon school shooter. The parents were helping, but they weren't close enough to take the corrective action that would have prevented what happened.

[NeuroTypical]

So, I'm still left at post #1 wondering what can be done. 

 

Apart from fixing the culture, the only thing you can do to prevent killings is to make it harder or less desirable to kill people.  There's the main real effective way to do that, but you've asked not to talk about such things in this thread.

 

I walked my kids to school the other day late.  They were behind a locked door, and I had to be buzzed in, by someone behind the door, who could see me via a camera.  I took a good look at the door and the locking mechanism - your average mass killer couldn't have shot his way in.  Stuff like that works too.   Assuming people don't get lazy and just hit the button whenever someone rings the doorbell.

 

 

"My intent in starting this thread in the first place is to talk about the U.S. here and now, and in the near future meaning your and my lifetime and extending on to the lifetimes of our grandchildren. I personally don't think it is much more than wishful thinking to talk of our country enjoying the solution to mass murders that would come from everyone having a testimony."

 

Fair enough.  Honestly, evil exists in this world, and such things will continue to exist in about the same amounts for the foreseeable future.  So from where I'm standing, your practical and reasonable solution doesn't exist.  That said, we can deal with evil on a stewardship basis.  We deal with it by resisting it.  We deal with it by making us not juicy targets, so it moves on.  I deal with it by teaching my kids situational awareness, how to spot trouble coming and not be there in the first place.  We call it '85 ways to not be there in the first place, 10 ways to run away, 3 ways to hide, and 2 ways to fight back'.  

 

It's not the country-wide solution you're thinking about.

Edited October 9, 2015 by NeuroTypical

[Guest]

So what can we do toward a hope to see a reduction in the numbers of mass murders in the U.S.? 

 

Change the culture to make it a culture of families.  Not individuals.  This is CONSERVATISM.  Liberalism, at its core, puts individuals on a higher degree of importance than Families.  Liberalism was necessary when you had a State that did not guarantee equal rights and individual liberty.  You don't have that anymore.  When you left Britain, you created a Constitution that guarantees it.  Therefore, liberalism in America ceases to become an individual fighting an oppressive state but rather an individual fighting to get stuff (whether goods or tolerance) from another individual in the guise of equality.

 

Stop making laws that support the break-up of families!

 

 

And what's more... stop making laws that support the devaluation of life!  You have a society of mothers who have no problem suctioning out her baby out of her womb because she already has 4 children and can't feed 1 more...  You have a society of mothers who assigns more value to their leisure than a human being growing in her womb... and you have a society of Fathers who are taught that they have absolutely no say in the matter.

 

Euthanasia is going to be on the ballot again.  I will bet you mangoes to peanuts it passes this time around... people don't value life anymore.

Edited October 9, 2015 by anatess

[Guest]

... Fair enough.  Honestly, evil exists in this world, and such things will continue to exist in about the same amounts for the foreseeable future.  So from where I'm standing, your practical and reasonable solution doesn't exist.  That said, we can deal with evil on a stewardship basis.  We deal with it by resisting it.  We deal with it by making us not juicy targets, so it moves on.  I deal with it by teaching my kids situational awareness, how to spot trouble coming and not be there in the first place.  We call it '85 ways to not be there in the first place, 10 ways to run away, 3 ways to hide, and 2 ways to fight back'.  

 

It's not the country-wide solution you're thinking about.

Hmmm. You have the right of it, of course. 

[Guest]

...  I'm sure there are plenty of veterans who would accept security positions in these various places. Why do we have to be sitting ducks? I don't know that mental profiling would be beneficial.

Making school buildings more secure against intrusion seems like a good safety measure. Do you think we are willing to spend money to protect children? Say more about your view regarding mental profiling. 

[Guest]

Change the culture to make it a culture of families.  Not individuals. ...

 

Stop making laws that support the break-up of families! 

 

... stop making laws that support the devaluation of life!  ...

So you see the problem of Mass Murders as being purely a symptom of a systemic problem, perhaps metaphorically like a bad pulp inside the peeling of fruit on a sick fig tree. It can't be addressed directly but needs to be addressed at the roots. Am I close? 

[estradling75]

You want something we can do now... To reduce the number of mass shootings...  Something that does not require massive change in culture?

 

Then make mass murdering less appealing to the type of mindset that might engage in it.  In most cases they want to be remembered... to go down in some kind of twisted glory and recognition.  So render them forgotten instead. Pass a law that make it a crime for the media to use/reveal the name and pictures of (alleged or otherwise) mass murders.  There would be some 'freedom of the press' issues but I think if you keep it narrow enough and have the reasoning of preventing more mass murders I think it would pass the courts.

 

They want numbers, they need a high body count.  They are going to pick places they know people have been disarmed.  So remove gun free zones.  Force them to consider the fact that when they start opening fire, anyone may have a gun and return fire.

Edited October 10, 2015 by estradling75

[Guest]

So you see the problem of Mass Murders as being purely a symptom of a systemic problem, perhaps metaphorically like a bad pulp inside the peeling of fruit on a sick fig tree. It can't be addressed directly but needs to be addressed at the roots. Am I close? 

 

You got it.

 

You can cut off the dead leaves to make the tree look prettier.  But, unless you address the roots, you're just going to make more dead leaves.

Edited October 11, 2015 by anatess

[Guest]

I'm not quite sure where to put this Conspiracy Theory of mine... this seems to be the most appropriate spot out of all the mass murder threads open right now.

 

So, let me float this for you.

 

The 3 American Heroes of the French Train Terrorist Incident hailed from that town where the Community College is.  As a matter of fact, one of them was supposed to attend that college this semester but found himself diverted to Dancing on tv so he didn't enroll.  So he would have been one of the kids in that college when the shooter opened fire.

 

Then a week after that, another one of them got stabbed repeatedly and almost died (again.  He was the one that got stabbed repeatedly at the train and almost died too) at a bar that he frequents close to the base that he was assigned.  They say it's a random bar brawl.

 

Now, I'm thinking about this and the coincidence is just too much!  I'm thinking... these 3 things could be related!

[Bee Sweet]

There should be plenty of money to make our children safe at school, if we stopped sending money to Iran so they can develop the nuclear bomb. School buses do not have seat belts, but we automobile drivers can get a ticket for no seat belt?

 

Teachers have a low pay scale, the parents now have to provide paper pencils, etc. Some of the schools have taken out the art and music programs. We idolize football players, movie actors, etc. who make millions for their time. The government spends money like there's no tomorrow, then uses our social security money and cuts federal funding to the schools.

 

Our children are the future, teachers should be paid well with good benefits. Unless a person has a love for teaching, why would anyone choose a profession like teaching? We have this all backwards, priorities in the wrong places.

 

As for mental profiling, I don't see how that can keep a person from slipping through the cracks. I also see it as a means to further the restrictions on Americans concerning gun control. Security is the answer, sad but true.

[SGoodman]

Reading through everyone's posts it seems that most are trying to identify and address whatever societal dynamic is responsible for creating these killers. I think it would be far easier to address the symptom, that is the killings themselves. If it were possible to take all the guns away (it isn't) then the problem would go away as well. Since we can't remove all the guns the next best solution is gun proliferation. If the vast majority of citizens were armed then arms are no longer much of an advantage.

(Reminds me of the scene in Aladin where the monkey grabs a sword and the guards all recoil in fear "he's got a sword!" Then one of them remembers "you idiot, we all have swords!")