The public school teacher salary thread


Vort
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Making this into its own thread so as not to continue hijacking another.

 

To reiterate: I acknowledge the existence and the valuable contributions of good teachers, without whom our current society would be much weaker and perhaps not even possible. I am not bagging on teachers, but on the constant whining about how "underpaid" teachers are -- what Backroads calls the "teacher-martyr culture". It's phony and incorrect on multiple levels.

 

No one is paid according to his or her direct worth to society. Rather, people are paid based on the demand for their talents and the shortness of its supply. Thus, the beautiful actor who contributes precious little to the betterment of society beyond making blockbuster movies gets paid absurdly out of proportion to the honest policeman, whose contributions to society are much greater by any rational estimate. This is because, difficult though being a cop may be, there are a lot more people who can be policemen than who are pretty enough and trained enough at acting to be able to headline a movie and pull down $300 million. (Okay, I realize this is only roughly true, but you get my point.)

 

I am perfectly okay with raising teacher salaries by 30%. Heck, I'd be all for it -- as long as those teachers were held to the same accountability as any other professional. Their abilities and results should be monitored on a semi-yearly basis, and if they do not perform, they should be fired.

 

But I maintain that the base claim -- that teachers are underpaid for their important services -- is by and large false. According to the chart I pointed to earlier, a teacher at what I would consider an "early mid-career" point of ten years of teaching service with a Master's degree plus 45 hours of class time (likely achieved by required training) would be making a base salary of $52,000. How this base salary compares to their actual salary is not obvious, but this Seattle Times article from September (when Seattle public schools were on strike) claims that the base salary makes up, on average, 81% of a teacher's salary. That suggests that our "average" teacher at early mid-career is making about $64,200 per year. Not a great professional salary for mid-career, but still solidly within the professional salary range. (By comparison, this site claims that a mid-career engineer makes less than $70,500, on average.)

 

(And don't forget, that is for ten months of work, assuming you count the lengthy Christmas holidays as "work time". That is a salary rate of $77,000 per year, a much healthier salary figure, easily besting the mid-career engineer average mentioned above. And this is on top of the benefits and full retirement, a perk which pretty much no one that I know outside of Boeing receives any more.)

 

I am not claiming that teachers are necessarily overpaid. Rather, I am saying that it's false to claim they are underpaid. I realize that I'm goring a sacred cow, and that some (like shermormon) will decry my politically incorrect stance. So be it. If you have reasonable arguments that demonstrate that teachers are underpaid, I'm happy to give them a listen. But I won't toe the line just because that's what the NEA and other teacher's unions like to claim.

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I earn much more than my teacher-wife will, once she obtains her masters.  She works 10 months, not nine.  She is required to engage in continuing education.  The job often comes home with her.  Further, while the dental and vision are solid, the health coverage only covers herself.  Teachers who rely on their coverage to include family members will see $700+ come out of their monthly paycheck.  In civil service, we only co-pay about $300.

 

Is your teacher-wife just starting out in her profession, or does she already have years of experience behind her? Ten months is still two months less than most professionals work. Most engineers and many other professionals also need to keep current with continuing education, often not officially recognized (or even paid for by the company). And I don't know anyone who gets by on eight hours a day. Instead of bringing their work home, many simply stay late. And $700 a month seems about right for buying family benefits; until very recently, I was paying over $1200 a month to buy benefits for my family.

 

In short, the situation you describe seems pretty typical to me of a professional-level job.

 

As for the rigor, college degrees in elementary education are notorious for ending up going into a fifth year.

 

As are many other undergraduate degrees leading to a professional job. I don't believe I have found the chemical engineering degree program that didn't require five years of very difficult coursework, for example. The student-teaching requirement is just not that different from the common expectation today that professionals will have several summers' worth of internships, sometimes paid but often not (or not well-paid).

 

As for whether education is easier than hard sciences, or social sciences, or literature, etc.--well, that's silly argumentation, in my always humble opinion.  Education pays less because a large number of people are motivated by training up the young.

 

Perhaps. But the point is that fewer people are willing to get an engineering degree, despite the high demand for engineers, so no one should be either surprised or scandalized when those who earn engineering degrees tend to earn more money than the teachers.

 

All that to say, the Education profession is a lower-paying one.  Most who engage in the coursework can complete it.  It's doable.  However, it's not a short program of study, nor is the work load light.  My hat is off to all the worthy professional educators, who labor long and hard, for modest economic gain.  And...please do enjoy July and half of August--when you're not in summer graduate work, that is!   :)

 

I agree with every word of this.

Edited by Vort
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Each market has its own character, but, I agree with the gist of the OP--teacher pay is fairly close to what it should be.  My one gripe (and it doesn't effect my family, but we chose to go with my civil service health insurance) is that a professional's benefits package should include insurance for the whole family, with a reasonable co-pay on the premium.  So, if the insurance is worth $1600 a month, even at 1/3rd co-pay (a bit high, I believe), the teachers shouldn't be paying more than $500.  Yet, in Washington State (Vort's example), we would be paying between $700-800 if we relied on the district-supplied health insurance.  I don't imagine too many blue-collar workers are facing that kind of premium, much less professionals.

 

But again, purely on salaries--I largely agree that the wages hit within the acceptable range--though, on the low-end of it.  :-)

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I think my brother and brother-in-law ought to be able to live above the poverty level when they teach 10 months, and find supplemental work during breaks. In Idaho at least, that's barely the case for some, and not at all for others. 

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Are any of you taking into account the extra unpaid hours that are required to stay caught up? (Grading papers, prep for the day, etc. Prep period is not sufficient.) 

 

Yes, that was mentioned by PC regarding bringing work home, when I mentioned that no one I know works only 40 hours per week. I have also noted that for many teachers, after their teaching notes are in place (after a year or two), their prep time falls to a tiny fraction of what it originally was.

 

I can't speak to your brothers' situations, or any other specific anecdotal case. But I have presented my reasons in what I believe is a comprehensible way. I welcome counterpresentations. Anecdotes are fine, too, but aren't likely to have as much impact in the discussion. I can find examples of horribly underpaid medical doctors, but that doesn't mean doctors on average don't make good money.

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Getting down to brass tacks, I believe starting wages for teachers in Idaho are between 30k and 40k. My brother-in-law is a teacher in Washington, where his pay is a great deal better (perhaps contributing to your opinion). He has a master's degree in his field, as well as the extra classes he took for his teaching certification. If he moved to Idaho and made 40k during the school year, and let's generously say 4k during the summer (because the temp jobs they can get over the summer are usually seasonal agriculture jobs, or commercial cleaning), that puts him at a yearly salary of 44k. Not destitute, no, but not a great salary for someone with a Master's degree. He has 3 children. That puts him at just about 10k over the federal poverty line for a family his size. He only takes benefits for himself, because insurance for his family would take too much of his paycheck. 

Edited by Eowyn
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Getting down to brass tacks, I believe starting wages for teachers in Idaho are between 30k and 40k. My brother-in-law is a teacher in Washington, where his pay is a great deal better (perhaps contributing to your opinion). He has a master's degree in his field, as well as the extra classes he took for his teaching certification. If he moved to Idaho and made 40k during the school year, and let's generously say 4k during the summer (because the temp jobs they can get over the summer are usually seasonal agriculture jobs, or commercial cleaning), that puts him at a yearly salary of 44k. Not destitute, no, but not a great salary for someone with a Master's degree. He has 3 children. That puts him at just about 10k over the federal poverty line for a family his size. He only takes benefits for himself, because insurance for his family would take too much of his paycheck. 

 

By comparison, when I left grad school for a bioengineering job near Seattle, my pay was $37,000 per year (plus decent but not exceptional benefits). My cousin who had his MS in molecular biology (genetics) had it even worse: His best offer was for $28,000 as a lab tech, from which position he could move up over the following five years.

 

Your brother's situation just does not sound all that unusual. Professional degrees often don't pay well out of the gate, unless you have an MBA.

Edited by Vort
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Is your teacher-wife just starting out in her profession, or does she already have years of experience behind her? Ten months is still two months less than most professionals work. Most engineers and many other professionals also need to keep current with continuing education, often not officially recognized (or even paid for by the company). And I don't know anyone who gets by on eight hours a day. Instead of bringing their work home, many simply stay late. And $700 a month seems about right for buying family benefits; until very recently, I was paying over $1200 a month to buy benefits for my family.

 

In short, the situation you describe seems pretty typical to me of a professional-level job.

 

She's on the early end of her career.  You seem to compare her position to a non-union, corporate environment.  I'm comparing it to a government position, or even a unionized blue collar one.  Civil service grants a little over 2-weeks vacation, the first 3 years of service, then nearly over three weeks from years 4-15.  After that, it's over four weeks. And again, we pay 22% of our family coverage premium. Teachers appear to be paying about half. I know of no government or union job that requires premium contributions that high. As for taking work home, neither government service, nor union jobs generally allow for that.  Teachers are the exception, not the rule.

 

As are many other undergraduate degrees leading to a professional job. I don't believe I have found the chemical engineering degree program that didn't require five years of very difficult coursework, for example. The student-teaching requirement is just not that different from the common expectation today that professionals will have several summers' worth of internships, sometimes paid but often not (or not well-paid).

 

I just know that Elementary Education is one of the major that frequently requires a 5th year.  Even when I earned the degree that was the case (though I finished on time). Teachers do not bemoan the student teaching experience.  It is interesting that colleges of education do not control the curriculum of their programs--a state agency does.  Thus, schools are often having to adjust their program requirements mid-stream.  I doubt this is common across most academic fields.

 

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I don't buy insurance through my school... we use Husband's. I'm at a charter school, which is public, but we don't get the usual awesome benefits (which in the public system are very good). It is true the cost is high for families, which is annoying.

I guess I just don't see teachers as having the worst financial situation, at least not as bad as the media makes it out to be.

If you're curious, I'm in my 5th year teaching and make 37,000 this year. State of Utah, fairly typical for this year with a bachelor's degree.

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I'm an engineer working as a programmer.  5 years of Bacherlor's Degree, 3 years of Masters.  It took me a while to pay off that horrendous student loan to get that Master's degree.

 

My company doesn't offer me any benefits.  That is - I get paid when I work.  If I'm sick, I don't get paid.  If I go on vacation, I don't get paid.  If it's a holiday and the office is closed (11 holiday days a year), I get a mandatory un-paid vacation.  I don't get health insurance (if my husband did not have health insurance, I'd be buying my own obamacare or paying the obamacare tax).  I don't get retirement, 401K, pension, whatever.  None of that.  I literally only get $ for each hour worked.

 

So, I feel we're all in the same boat with teachers here.  In my neighborhood high school, they start school at 7:30 and get off at 2:30.  They get all kinds of holidays (a lot more than 11), vacations, early release days, Teacher Planning Days, Weather Days, etc. etc.  So, in effect, the school-year is 36 teaching weeks.  My work year is 49 weeks and 4 days.

 

The entry-level salary of a Teacher is the same as the entry-level nurse and the entry-level policeman in my neck of the woods.  And yes, they are paid a lot less than California or New York.  Well, we don't get taxed like California or New York either.  No State Tax is quite a big chunk!

 

Anyway, policeman here usually picks up extra jobs manning Football Games or Concerts or doing security drive-bys for some Homeowner's Association or NightClub.  They get more money per hour on those extra jobs than their regular jobs that sometimes they could almost double that salary with the extra things.

 

Nurses pick up extra jobs by double shifting.

 

Teachers pick up extra jobs by running summer camps or doing tutoring.

 

I pick up extra jobs by picking up extra short-term contracts.

 

This is the beauty of America - or used to be.  It's been looking bad out there.  In the America of old where there were not 95 million people without jobs, you can let market capitalism work to help you find money while you fulfill your dream of service to society.

 

So, if you really want teachers pay to increase - work on improving the economy!  We're all on the same boat!

Edited by anatess
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the problem with money is that people want to put in a shotgun and shoot it in the general direction of the problem, thinking that will fix it.


but i tend to lean toward the k-12 teachers tend to be on the underpaid side of things.

Edited by Blackmarch
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I confess, I wouldn't fight too hard against an offered raise.

 

I would welcome a raise myself!  Do you know that I've been paid the exact same rate for the last 15 years?

 

But yeah, if I have to pay for that raise, I'd like to know that my money is spent wisely.

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I'm an engineer working as a programmer.  5 years of Bacherlor's Degree, 3 years of Masters.  It took me a while to pay off that horrendous student loan to get that Master's degree.

 

My company doesn't offer me any benefits.  That is - I get paid when I work.  If I'm sick, I don't get paid.  If I go on vacation, I don't get paid.  If it's a holiday and the office is closed (11 holiday days a year), I get a mandatory un-paid vacation.  I don't get health insurance (if my husband did not have health insurance, I'd be buying my own obamacare or paying the obamacare tax).  I don't get retirement, 401K, pension, whatever.  None of that.  I literally only get $ for each hour worked.

 

So, I feel we're all in the same boat with teachers here.  In my neighborhood high school, they start school at 7:30 and get off at 2:30.  They get all kinds of holidays (a lot more than 11), vacations, early release days, Teacher Planning Days, Weather Days, etc. etc.  So, in effect, the school-year is 36 teaching weeks.  My work year is 49 weeks and 4 days.

 

The entry-level salary of a Teacher is the same as the entry-level nurse and the entry-level policeman in my neck of the woods.  And yes, they are paid a lot less than California or New York.  Well, we don't get taxed like California or New York either.  No State Tax is quite a big chunk!

 

Anyway, policeman here usually picks up extra jobs manning Football Games or Concerts or doing security drive-bys for some Homeowner's Association or NightClub.  They get more money per hour on those extra jobs than their regular jobs that sometimes they could almost double that salary with the extra things.

 

Nurses pick up extra jobs by double shifting.

 

Teachers pick up extra jobs by running summer camps or doing tutoring.

 

I pick up extra jobs by picking up extra short-term contracts.

 

This is the beauty of America - or used to be.  It's been looking bad out there.  In the America of old where there were not 95 million people without jobs, you can let market capitalism work to help you find money while you fulfill your dream of service to society.

 

So, if you really want teachers pay to increase - work on improving the economy!  We're all on the same boat!

 

Wow, makes me glad that I don't live in the US! 

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You'd rather live in the Philippines?  Where you need a college diploma to flip burgers at McDonald's?

 

Nope but I would like to visit there one day!  I do however enjoy my paid holidays, free healthcare, my paid paternity leave, my paid sick leave and my state pension (when I eventually retire!).

Edited by Latter Days Guy
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... but i tend to lean toward the k-12 teachers tend to be on the underpaid side of things.

 

Myth.

 

I happen to be in a position where I know how much most engineers get paid.  Teachers' salaries are a matter of public record (for public schools).

 

Upto the superintendent level, teachers get paid about the same as engineers for the same number of years out of school.  The difficulty in really seeing the big picture is that teachers' salaries are straight line based on years of experience and sometimes position.  Whereas, the engineer's salary is scatter shot.  But when analyzed from a statistical perspective, it is pretty much the same.

 

Additional considerations:

 

1) Engineers almost always work overtime all year round.  From overtime, we can make more than teachers.  But if a teacher plays it right, their summertime work can almost match what the engineer can do.

2) We are out of work more often than teachers.  I once applied to be a pizza delivery man when I was between engineering jobs.

3) Most companies don't allow you to take a second job.  From a practical standpoint, it would be very difficult to maintain anyway.

4) We have hard deadlines which determine our emloyment.  A teacher misses deadlines and ???  

5) Our performance will determine whether we keep working or not.  A teacher, once tenured, doesn't need to worry about it.

6) I don't want to insult the teachers on this board.  But the education and abilities that are NECESSARY to be an effective teacher are much more common and/or more easily acquired than those necessary to be an effective engineer.

7) The demand for engineers is mostly natural and would always be close to where it is currently.  Whereas, the demand for teachers is mostly due to government requirements.  Yes, there would still be a demand for teachers, but the demand would be at a MUCH lower level.

 

BTW

 

I find it amusing that we are pitting engineers vs teachers as the comparison of choice.  At BYU, the engineering school was mostly male while the education school was mostly female.  It was fabled that the two schools would have a "double E" dance (engineerung & education) where we could pair up more evenly.  But I tend to think of this as a myth.

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I find it amusing that we are pitting engineers vs teachers as the comparison of choice.  At BYU, the engineering school was mostly male while the education school was mostly female.  It was fabled that the two schools would have a "double E" dance (engineerung & education) where we could pair up more evenly.  But I tend to think of this as a myth.

 

When I was in Engineering school I was one female of 3-5 in most of my classes of 20.  From Elementary to High School, most of my teachers are female.  In Engineering school, most of my teachers are male.

 

My opinion is that Engineering lends more to the natural inclinations of males while Education lends more to the natural inclinations of females.

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First off - I am not sure I agree with what engineers base salary is.   It as been over 25 years since I worked as an engineer at Boeing.  But using my son that graduated a year and a half ago with a software engineering degree and had an initial salary of $70,000 with a guarantee additional $10,000 for each certification obtained plus yearly merit raises.   Also after "proving" his work ethic over the first 6 months was allows to work at home as per his discretion.   Perhaps this is not average because he graduated in the top of his class.  As a consulting engineer - I do not think my current salary would have and measurable comparisons.  

 

But I will however, be very vocal about misappropriations of funds in our public education system and highlight that the highest paid professionals in our education system are specialists that do nothing more than oversee compliance with federal regulations in order to receive the most federal moneys.  I believe that teachers should be the highest paid professionals in our public educational system - including administers (principles etc.) and others in the system.  I believe teachers should be the highest paid - including state universities. 

 

But I have another pet peeve about university professors that do not teach but are research only professors.  I also think we should be more concerned with professors that require their own text for their classes - texts that are not used anywhere else in the world.

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It may be that part of the reason that Washington State teacher salaries look so good to some on this string is that they are comparing them straight across the board with Utah salaries for other professions.  I'm guess Seattle has a much higher cost of living than Utah--even SLC.

 

Yep:  Salt Lake City = 100.6 vs. Seattle, WA at 121.4

 

So Seattle salaries should be roughly 21% higher than sLC's just to have the same standard of living.  So, that Master's degree holder, with 15 years in, making $60K in Seattle, is actually making roughly $49,600.  Not terrible, but hardly exorbitant.  Starting pay with a B.A. would be $29,750 (it's about $36K in Seattle). 

Edited by prisonchaplain
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It may be that part of the reason that Washington State teacher salaries look so good to some on this string is that they are comparing them straight across the board with Utah salaries for other professions.  I'm guess Seattle has a much higher cost of living than Utah--even SLC.

 

My comparison of my own (Seattle-area) wage with teacher's wages was apples-to-apples. in general, I expect that engineers do have a higher salary potential than public school teachers. But that does not change my opinion that, at least in the cases I have seen in the US, public school teachers tend to be fairly compensated and not underpaid. Individual exceptions to that rule certainly will exist, but they don't disprove the general statement.

 

I welcome (really, I do) evidence that I am mistaken and that teachers in general really are underpaid. But that evidence must stand up to scrutiny. Don't expect me just to curl up into a fetal position and succumb to politically correct pressures to toe the party line about poverty-stricken school teachers. Show me the evidence and let's discuss it.

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Teacher salaries, in general, are modest.  "Underpaid" is a pejorative, so it's hard to prove. 

 

On the other hand, when Washington State law says that the state should pay their salaries, but districts have to use property tax funds to make up gaps, when COLA's are promised, and then negotiated away by the legislature, sometimes for several years in a row, and when legislatures prefer to keep adding new testing measures, new hurdles to "hold teachers accountable, and refuse to do the one thing proven to work--hire more teachers to reduce class sizes--well, it's easy to see why there is some consternation, and why the educators often feel like political pawns.

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