Who I am, What I believe, and my motivations.


Byron
 Share

Recommended Posts

I am sorry that my questions have caused so much discord on your forum, so I hope to make amends here.

 

After reading a number of posts after I had said goodbye, it seems many of you have made some assumptions about me. But rather than leave things at that I would like to take this time and clear up the misconceptions many have about me.

 

My name is Byron Xxxxxxxx, I am a Canadian teacher currently working and living in China. I am well travelled having visited nearly 30 countries now and though I am not a big fan of the lesser vices of man I do find a form of contentment learning about why people do what they do.

 

I am not a strong Christian, I am not a regular church goer, but I do believe with all my heart that Jesus was the son of God. I was indoctrinated in the Lutheran Church but never really took to the additional things they added to Christianity (similar to how the Catholics do). In my walk as a Christian I have heard uncountable times the branding of faiths like Mormonism or Jehovah Witnesses as being unscriptural cults that hide themselves behind a veil of truth to better disguise their lie. I feared my mind may have been poisoned by man's prejudices and hatred of things he does not understand. Thus I have spoken to people of quite a few faiths now; Muslim's in Dubai and the Philippines, Catholics all over the world, Jehovah Witnesses at my front door (lol), People of the Bahia faith in India, but I had up till now not had opportunity to really talk to Mormons. Perhaps it was the fact that whenever I saw a Mormon, I was too busy, not ready to talk or simply the will of God.

 

I came to this forum with many misconceptions and prejudices, but I sincerely tried to ignore these by simply asking some of the questions I was most concerned with.

 

I understand what it is like to be an apologetic for your faith in the face of adversity. Both China and the middle east are not overly welcoming of Christianity. The constant challenging of my faith can, at times, bring the worst out in me. However after my frustration subsides, I realize that I failed God and man once again.

I pray for forgiveness and if I cannot make amends I move on knowing that Though I may have failed my neighbor, God will not give up on him.

 

I have never been a part of any workshop with an agenda outside of studying the bible. I have never had a secret agenda to debunk Mormonism or any other faith. I trust in the complete word of God (which I believe to rest singularly in the bible). I have no interest in understanding the specifics of other faiths, but I do have interest in understanding the people who believe in other faiths.

 

The human part of me really wanted to lash out at those of you who lashed out at me. The self-righteous part of me wanted to condemn those who condemned me. It was the holy spirit that rests in me that tempered my response and had me pray to God for patience and tolerance.

 

God is good.

 

Still as I told one of you, who did actually send men a very pleasant email,  I was able to look past the unpleasantness to learn that many of my misconceptions were in error.

 

In closing, I would like to remind you all that only people who are hurt seek to hurt others. That if you take things personally, you allow yourself to be hurt. You all have the power to avoid this. And you all have the gift of being able to ask God for strength, understanding and forgiveness. So should someone come to you not just with questions, but accusations and judgments, you can better serve your faith.

 

I do not believe God wants us to fight each other, I believe God wants us to live in his word, deliver his word and love through his word. And that should someone seek to harm us, "we offer up our other cheek."

 

I hope I have made myself clear.

 

God Bless

Edited by Byron
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am sorry that my questions have caused so much discord on your forum, so I hope to make amends here.

 

 

I think you give yourself way to much credit for the discord...  There are always topics we are discussed/arguing that can get a bit heated.  If it wasn't you it would be some political topic, or some gospel hobby horse, or other religious group.  If you leave you will soon be forgotten and we will move on to the next item of discussion (whatever that might be)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you give yourself way to much credit for the discord...  There are always topics we are discussed/arguing that can get a bit heated.  If it wasn't you it would be some political topic, or some gospel hobby horse, or other religious group.  If you leave you will soon be forgotten and we will move on to the next item of discussion (whatever that might be)

 

Not taking credit for the discord, just apologizing for the discord my words may have triggered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am willing to look again at your intentions. But please understand that when you say "I want to learn about what you believe", and we tell you what we believe, and you essentially say "But you're wrong, and this is why, and you need to admit it", that's not curiosity. That is proselyting at best and contending at worst. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Take a look at the thread about Galatians vs. the Book of Mormon. Even as people tried to explain where we were coming from, I think most of us felt like all we were getting back was, "But you're wrong. You're another gospel. You're what Paul was talking about." When we asked questions to understand your reasoning better, such as questions about the timeline, and about other Bible translations, all we got back was either more accusations of being another gospel, or "You're judging me. I won't answer accusations." Even though many of us feel that accusations and judgments are what we get from you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also you refused to define what "Gospel" is as you would define it, so the conversation had nowhere to go but in circles. 

 

These discussions require give and take. Disagreement can happen, and that's okay, but pointing fingers and refusing to answer questions in return is a major thing that leads people to question one's intentions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Take a look at the thread about Galatians vs. the Book of Mormon. Even as people tried to explain where we were coming from, I think most of us felt like all we were getting back was, "But you're wrong. You're another gospel. You're what Paul was talking about." When we asked questions to understand your reasoning better, such as questions about the timeline, and about other Bible translations, all we got back was either more accusations of being another gospel, or "You're judging me. I won't answer accusations." Even though many of us feel that accusations and judgments are what we get from you.

 

Also you refused to define what "Gospel" is as you would define it, so the conversation had nowhere to go but in circles. 

 

These discussions require give and take. Disagreement can happen, and that's okay, but pointing fingers and refusing to answer questions in return is a major thing that leads people to question one's intentions.

 

I believe that Gospel means "the good news" of Jesus' sacrifice for the salvation of man. I also believe that the Bible is the complete Word of God and encompasses my understanding of  "Gospel". So, yes though I believe the BOM to be another Gospel, I have also said my understanding is that of a man and that I may be wrong. 

 

Perhaps our differences go deeper still because I do not take ownership of the Word of God. Thus I am less prone to take offense at someone else's understanding of His word. Not to say that you take ownership of the Word of God, but it does seem that you do take personal offense to my questions and understanding.  

 

In this case I hope you can forgive the perceived slight. In the future I will strive to be more careful in how I ask my questions and assert my beliefs here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that Gospel means "the good news" of Jesus' sacrifice for the salvation of man. I also believe that the Bible is the complete Word of God and encompasses my understanding of  "Gospel". So, yes though I believe the BOM to be another Gospel, I have also said my understanding is that of a man and that I may be wrong. 

 

Perhaps our differences go deeper still because I do not take ownership of the Word of God. Thus I am less prone to take offense at someone else's understanding of His word. Not to say that you take ownership of the Word of God, but it does seem that you do take personal offense to my questions and understanding.  

 

 

We don't claim ownership of the Gospel of the Word of God either... we simply believe him when he says 

 

2 Nephi 29

Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

 

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

 

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

 

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Thanks for coming back.  I'm impressed.

I am not a strong Christian, I am not a regular church goer, but I do believe with all my heart that Jesus was the son of God. 

 

What else is there to being a "strong Christian"?  I recognize that there are a lot of us on this board.  And you have limited time.  But I really wish you had read some of my responses. -_-

 

In my walk as a Christian I have heard uncountable times the branding of faiths like Mormonism or Jehovah Witnesses as being unscriptural cults that hide themselves behind a veil of truth to better disguise their lie. I feared my mind may have been poisoned by man's prejudices and hatred of things he does not understand.

 

I came to this forum with many misconceptions and prejudices, but I sincerely tried to ignore these by simply asking some of the questions I was most concerned with.

 

First, if I can give you some advice -- using the word "cult" to describe us or even having that belief is not going to get you far.  So, if that thought is in your mind, you are correct, it has been poisoned by man's prejudices and hatred.

 

Rephrase: "Tried to ignore the prejudices, but was concerned about these issues".  Is that a fair rephrasing?  I'd like to point out that by being concerned that these really may be true would indicate that you couldn't completely ignore them.  But I appreciate the effort. :clap:

 

I have never been a part of any workshop with an agenda outside of studying the bible. I have never had a secret agenda to debunk Mormonism or any other faith. I trust in the complete word of God (which I believe to rest singularly in the bible).

 

Then show us.  Stay here for a while and talk with us -- not just about our beliefs.  Just hang out with us. :cap:  :headphones:  :grouphug: (group hug).

 

I'm saying the following as advice, not condemnation.  To come into someone else's home, drop some accusations (especially which are false) refuse to acknowledge any good points or points of agreement, then leave while accusing people of being hateful, is considered rude.  <_<

 

You seemed to accept a couple of my "rules of engagement".  Yet you chose not to abide by some of the more important ones. :huh:

 

But that's ok.  We can start again. :)

 

I have no interest in understanding the specifics of other faiths, but I do have interest in understanding the people who believe in other faiths.

 

I'm not sure how you can understand people and their faith without going into the specifics. :huh:

 

In closing, I would like to remind you all that only people who are hurt seek to hurt others. That if you take things personally, you allow yourself to be hurt. You all have the power to avoid this. And you all have the gift of being able to ask God for strength, understanding and forgiveness. So should someone come to you not just with questions, but accusations and judgments, you can better serve your faith.

 

Yes, I hope we ALL may remember that. 

 

I do not believe God wants us to fight each other

 

Nor to do I.  If as you say, your goal is to understand us, not necessarily our faith, then you have to be around us.  Not just in cyberspace, but in real life.  I hope thought such an endeavor, you can better understand us.  But for now, we offer you getting to know us in cyberspace.

 

We are not a perfect people.  Some are more gruff, some more understanding, most are in between.  But we are a people who have reasons for believing what we do.  And we are all on the road to becoming more Christ-like in our love for others.  All of us have a long way to go. :wub:

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Byron,

 

I get it- I really do.  I've spent years at countercult reachout boards and Catholic Answers Forums trying to be a good guest while still wanting to interact and get my points across.  I've often struggled and failed to be charitable and full of Christlike love (although my best successes in those places have come when I have managed it.)

 

That said, I still want to know something.

 

I have never been a part of any workshop with an agenda outside of studying the bible. I have never had a secret agenda to debunk Mormonism or any other faith.

 

Ok, fine.  Let me be as civilly direct and plain as I can be.

 

* Where did you first encounter the notion of 1 Galatians 6-9 as a criticism of the BoM?

* Where did you first encounter the notion of Joseph Smith plagarizing various sources when writing the BoM?

* Where did you first encounter the heresay that Mormons believe Lucifer is Jesus' brother?

* Where did you first encounter the notion that Mormons couldn't drink caffeine?

* Where did you first encounter the notion of Mormons believing God living on a distant planet?

* Where did you first encounter the notion of Mormons believing God had sex with Mary? 

* Where did you first encounter the notion of Mormon beliefs about our garments?

 

As those of us who have spent years interacting with critics of my faith can attest, these are a handful of common criticisms, spread through pamphlet, critical book, guest speaker at someone's church, symposiums on mormons given by nonmormons, critical website, and such places.  Please forgive me in advance if I'm off base here, but you seem to have hinted at the notion that you've just come up with these questions on your own, in your passing interest in things LDS.  Charitably put, Byron, we know that isn't the case.

 

I am asking you to be as plain in your answer as I've been in my questions.  Where did you hear all this stuff?  It's ok to cite a book, author, website, series of emails, guest speaker, or whatever it is.  When you cite your source you don't lose credibility.  You may even find you gain some. 

 

God bless you, and looking forward to hearing your answer,

NT

Edited by NeuroTypical
Link to comment
Share on other sites

...I was indoctrinated in the Lutheran Church but never really took to the additional things they added to Christianity (similar to how the Catholics do)...

 

Hi Byron, I read your post and my only questions are:

 

What are these additional things that the Lutheran Church has added to Christianity?

 

Are you Evangelical Lutheran or Missouri Synod Lutheran?

 

M.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Byron, I read your post and my only questions are:

 

What are these additional things that the Lutheran Church has added to Christianity?

 

Are you Evangelical Lutheran or Missouri Synod Lutheran?

 

M.

Missouri Synod is the Church I was indoctrinated in.

The Lutherans have a creed that is read at nearly every service I have attended. It is a nice prayer based on scripture but it is an addition that does not exist in scripture. Fellow Lutherans have challenged me on this saying that to omit this is akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater, however I prefer to be schooled by scripture and not through someone else's verse about scripture.

Edited by Byron
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Byron, I have read your deeply moving and thought and thought provoking post a couple of times. 

I was Catholic/Lutheran before a converted to Mormonism as a mature adult. As a Roman Catholic woman, I once,  for a period of time, explored the idea of whether or not I had a vocational calling to be a nun. 

I am married and my dear spouse is also a former Catholic.  We are both Temple Mormons; actually WERE,

as our recommends have lapsed as we have not kept up our tithes.  

 

I have compassion for  you, as I have allowed myself a couple of times, to become inactive. The reasons for this were , at the time I thought, genuine. I was "working on my testimony," which I HAVE today. 

 

Brigham Young the GREAT CO-FOUNDER OF THE CHURCH  once said that "The LDS Church is True. If not, the people would have ruined it YEARS AGO."   Unfortunately, it sounds as if you, Byron, may have

run afoul of a crack pot or two in this Church  and I am sincerely SORRY.

 

 Your letter just radiates with the Holy Spirit. When Moses was on the Mountain, God said to him, "Tell the people that , 'I AM that I AM' has sent you. "  What THIS MEANS to ME , and other people whom  I've heard teach is :  We have been given quick intellects with the ability to reason and chose. Everyone has the privilege and charge of working out his/her own religious beliefs and choices.

 

The Holy Spirit  /Heavenly Father/Jesus Christ  will reveal THEMSELVES, INDIVIDUALLY to each person who SEEKS them.....AND it is WRONG for ANYONE to OFFEND another person's RIGHT  in this regard, or spiritually injure them. (WHY did the Pilgrims come to America? Jesus also seriously discusses this .)   I BELIEVE that the LDS CHURCH will NOT DISAGREE with this.  In fact I can see teen aged JOSEPH SMITH kneeling in that little grove praying to God to show JOSEPH the WAY. NO ONE forced their religion on him.  

 

I'm praying for your peace, protection,  and whatever else of which you want and stand  in  need.  

 

You're quite inspirational, Byron. 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you referring to the Apostles' Creed? Creeds are basically statements of belief based on scripture.

They may be based on scripture, but they are not scripture. And, as with anything, it is impossible to base something on something else and not change it, at least subtly.

The men who wrote the creeds (and there are many), were not prophets, did not speak for God, and had no authority to write in His name. Further, the mere fact that the creeds exist is evidence of alteration of the beliefs the purport to refine of define.

Lehi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share