LDS Family Services counselor told me line about "Most important work you can do is in the home" isn't true

[Guest]

I definitely believe in division of responsibility. I agree that whoever is home the most should carry most of the housekeeping responsibilities. Ideally that is the mother.

But lots of families have had to adapt to hard times. What happens if there are no children and the wife is also working full time? What about before or after there are children in the house? Especially if you're kicking them out at 18, child rearing is only a part of your life together.

Even when there are children at home, I fail to see where nurturing = scrubbing toilets. In most traditional families, those things do fall under the mother's stewardship, because she is the one that is home most of the time. But there really is nowhere that says wife = maid, or even mother = maid. It's just about who is home.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Eowyn

[The Folk Prophet]

Even when there are children at home, I fail to see where nurturing = scrubbing toilets. In most traditional families, those things do fall under the mother's stewardship, 

 

Unless, of course, the children are old enough to scrub the toilets.

[Guest]

Yes, teaching them to clean and giving them household responsibilities is a very important part of nurturing! I think a lot of kids miss out on that, and I'm seeing how adult nieces and nephews pay the price as they enter adulthood.

 

Here's a question for yjacket: should I teach my son to cook and clean? Why, aside from serving a mission and living on his own before marriage?

Edited January 26, 2016 by Eowyn

[Just_A_Guy]

Metaquestion:

Why is this poster (a man) being treated so differently from many other posters (mostly women) who voice objections here to experiences they claim to have had? The statements of the other posters (mostly women) are generally taken at face value, and people here commiserate with them -- to the point of making truly nasty statements about their selfish, good-for-nothing husbands. In contrast, this poster's statements are treated with skepticism and his motives questioned from the get-go.

Is it as simple as the fact that he's a man, and therefore not as trustworthy as the anonymous women who post here?

Vort, I'd like to think I would have been just as . . . err . . . direct, in responding to an OP by a female.

But, speaking to your larger point: yeah, we do tend to be harder on men. Part of that, I think, is a sort of men-have-the-priesthood-and-where-much-is-given-much-is-required sort of mentality. The other facet may be that in a patriarchal subculture like Mormonism (and I use "patriarchal" merely as a descriptor, not as a pejorative), the forms of "misbehavior' we tend to associate with men (controlling behavior, physical mistreatment, infidelity, etc) are easier to identify and harder to justify on a case-by-case scenario than the forms of "misbehavior" we tend to associate with women (nagging, emotional abuse, neglect of family responsibilities, etc). It's never OK to hit a woman, but who can blame a harried housewife from snapping once in a while and screaming at her husband? Adultery is always wrong, but a woman needs to get away from it all for one or two nights with her friends per month (and if she needs one or two nights a week, well, who are we to tell her that's excessive?). Men should always respect their wife's autonomy, but housewives know what really needs to be done and it's entirely appropriate for her to tell her husband when he is failing to implement the family work plan. And so on, and so on . . .

Edited January 26, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest]

Metaquestion:

 

Why is this poster (a man) being treated so differently from many other posters (mostly women) who voice objections here to experiences they claim to have had? The statements of the other posters (mostly women) are generally taken at face value, and people here commiserate with them -- to the point of making truly nasty statements about their selfish, good-for-nothing husbands. In contrast, this poster's statements are treated with skepticism and his motives questioned from the get-go.

 

Is it as simple as the fact that he's a man, and therefore not as trustworthy as the anonymous women who post here?

 

Wow!  I totally missed that he mentioned his wife.  I just scanned right over that.  I thought the OP was a woman.

 

Maybe it's that upside-down world thing again.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Guest

[estradling75]

The most recent revealed word on the roles men and woman play in a family is in the proclamation of the family.

 

It states clearly that a man is responsible for the "necessities" and the women are responsible for the "nurturing"  It further states that both man and woman are to help each other in the fulfilling of their roles and adapt as necessary to the reality of the situation they find themselves in.

 

This is the revealed word of the Lord on this matter as far as we know it.

 

This allows for both structure and flexibility.  However no where does it state who has the responsibility of cleaning the toilet, mopping the floors or doing the dishes.

 

If you view such as "necessities" then it clearly falls to the man.  If you view such as "nurturing" then it clearly falls to the woman.  If you view it as crap that needs to be done then it can go where ever it best fits.  No matter what, the couple chooses, always remembering the command to help each other.

 

As for cleanliness yes it is a command.  However remember the direction of President McKay.  If you think his remarks of about Success in the home was based on how "clean" it was you really don't get it.  Success in the home is when the people who live in that home are thriving and growing closer to Christ.  Failure in the home is when the people who live in that home are not thriving and not growing closer to Christ.  That is the success that matters, not how clean it is.

 

Now in my personal experience a young child who is thriving... one of the signs that they are thriving is that they are a chaotic little mess makers (My little daughter has the nick name The Hurricane for precisely this reason).  Part of the nurturing process is the teach them to clean up after themselves while still having them thrive, but that takes time.

 

So sometime a Successful home is not the cleanest of homes, but I will take success any day and be content

[Guest]

I definitely believe in division of responsibility. I agree that whoever is home the most should carry most of the housekeeping responsibilities. Ideally that is the mother.

But lots of families have had to adapt to hard times. What happens if there are no children and the wife is also working full time? What about before or after there are children in the house? Especially if you're kicking them out at 18, child rearing is only a part of your life together.

Even when there are children at home, I fail to see where nurturing = scrubbing toilets. In most traditional families, those things do fall under the mother's stewardship, because she is the one that is home most of the time. But there really is nowhere that says wife = maid, or even mother = maid. It's just about who is home.

 

 

This is how I see it:

 

1.)  It is the responsibility of the man to seek and provide resources for the family.  This doesn't necessarily mean that he has to be the one to seek employment.  What this means is - it is his job to make sure it gets done even if he asks the wife to carry the burden of seeking employment if he somehow can't do it himself.

 

2.)  It is the responsibility of the woman to manage the home.  This doesn't necessarily mean that she has to be the one to scrub toilets.  What this means is - it is her job to make sure that the home runs efficiently even if she has to ask the husband to carry the burden of scrubbing toilets if somehow she can't do it herself.

 

What this ultimately results to:

1.)  If there is no money to feed the family - it is the man's fault (even if it is his wife who is working while he's staying home to care for the kids) and he needs to "man up" and solve it.  He can ask his wife to help - but the wife is simply that... helping.

2.)  If the house is unsanitary - it is the wife's fault (even if the husband is the one staying home while she goes to work) and she needs to "woman up" and solve it.  She can ask her husband to help - but the husband is simply that... helping.

 

The children growing up in this environment learns to do both the man and the woman's responsibilities - so they can fulfill their responsibilities when they start their own home and so they can help their spouses fulfill theirs.

[The Folk Prophet]

Clean is so subjective.

 

Compared to the temple my house is...um...shameful. Compared to some people's homes that I've been in my home's quite tidy.

 

So am I following the command to keep my home clean?

[Backroads]

This is how I see it:

1.) It is the responsibility of the man to seek and provide resources for the family. This doesn't necessarily mean that he has to be the one to seek employment. What this means is - it is his job to make sure it gets done even if he asks the wife to carry the burden of seeking employment if he somehow can't do it himself.

2.) It is the responsibility of the woman to manage the home. This doesn't necessarily mean that she has to be the one to scrub toilets. What this means is - it is her job to make sure that the home runs efficiently even if she has to ask the husband to carry the burden of scrubbing toilets if somehow she can't do it herself.

What this ultimately results to:

1.) If there is no money to feed the family - it is the man's fault (even if it is his wife who is working while he's staying home to care for the kids) and he needs to "man up" and solve it. He can ask his wife to help - but the wife is simply that... helping.

2.) If the house is unsanitary - it is the wife's fault (even if the husband is the one staying home while she goes to work) and she needs to "woman up" and solve it. She can ask her husband to help - but the husband is simply that... helping.

The children growing up in this environment learns to do both the man and the woman's responsibilities - so they can fulfill their responsibilities when they start their own home and so they can help their spouses fulfill theirs.

I read this to my husband. He would love to have me at home full-time and just yesterday was wishing we could get to that point, that he made more money, etc.

I think he needed to hear your thoughts.

[Guest]

Clean is so subjective.

 

Compared to the temple my house is...um...shameful. Compared to some people's homes that I've been in my home's quite tidy.

 

So am I following the command to keep my home clean?

 

Clean is very subjective.

 

You go to my mom's house, you can eat dinner on the toilet (if she lets you).

 

You go to my mother-in-law's house, the gas station across the street has cleaner toilets.

 

My house is a by-product of my husband's cleanliness habits (or lack thereof) growing up in my mother-in-law's house as well as my cleanliness habits (that borders on OCD) growing up in my mother's house.  My house is the cleanest of all my husband's siblings' houses while being, at the same time, the dirtiest of all my siblings' houses.

 

This is how I see it - the level of cleanliness necessary in the home is more about PEACE than the number of germs showing up under a black light.  Peace is necessary to bring the Spirit into the home.  My husband's family are all at peace in their own home and my family are all at peace in my childhood home.  My family will not be able to be at peace in my in-law's home.  Just as an illustration - my niece was decorating this jug for art class in their dining room table using acrylic paint, glue, glitter, etc.  She opened up the paint and was about to dip her brush when my sister-in-law said, "Do you want to die?".  My niece set the brush down, capped the paint and ran to the closet to get a stack of newspapers to cover the dining room table and the floor.  Meanwhile, in my house, the dining table has a discolored spot the shape of a clothes iron...

 

With both my husband and I coming from a very wide divide on what a Peaceful Home is like, we both had to adjust to the level of cleanliness where we both can be at peace.

Edited January 26, 2016 by anatess

[prisonchaplain]

Metaquestion:

 

Why is this poster (a man) being treated so differently from many other posters (mostly women) who voice objections here to experiences they claim to have had? The statements of the other posters (mostly women) are generally taken at face value, and people here commiserate with them -- to the point of making truly nasty statements about their selfish, good-for-nothing husbands. In contrast, this poster's statements are treated with skepticism and his motives questioned from the get-go.

 

Is it as simple as the fact that he's a man, and therefore not as trustworthy as the anonymous women who post here?

 

Gals tend to come in and express heartache about their spouse's cheating, porn viewing, yelling, etc.  This guy comes in with cherry-picked quotes from a licensed counselor, endorsed by the church--accusing the counselor of apostasy.  The temptation to read into the OP was truly overwhelming.  If nothing else, it struck me as inappropriate to come to a forum with snippets from a private counseling session, seeking affirmation (ammunition?).

[Just_A_Guy]

Clean is so subjective.

 

Compared to the temple my house is...um...shameful. Compared to some people's homes that I've been in my home's quite tidy.

 

So am I following the command to keep my home clean?

 

The command doesn't apply to you, TFP.  It applies to The Folk Prophetess.

 

(Running away now.)

[The Folk Prophet]

The command doesn't apply to you, TFP.  It applies to The Folk Prophetess.

 

(Running away now.)

 

And...my wife's depression level just increased ten fold.

[Guest]

anatess, I'm glad that works for you. I mean that. I think a lot of couples don't get that far... figuring out what works for them. 

 

What has worked for Faramir and I has flexed and changed over the years. Every season does indeed look different. Overall we try and work as a team and find solutions to problems in counsel with each other. Mostly we've managed to maintain the provider/nurturer roles with clear delineation; sometimes what has to be done so that the bills are paid and kids are getting what they need and the marriage is nurtured looks pretty non-traditional from the outside. But we find what works for us and what brings "safety and peace" through every season (which is totally dynamic month to month and year to year). That's the trick: finding what works for you as a couple to achieve the goals set forth in the Proclamation. 

[Latter-Day Marriage]

Yes, teaching them to clean and giving them household responsibilities is a very important part of nurturing! I think a lot of kids miss out on that, and I'm seeing how adult nieces and nephews pay the price as they enter adulthood.

Part of that training is that you don't go and do it yourself if they are dragging their feet about it.  There have been times where our home could have been a lot tidier than it would have been if we let the kids off the hook.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

It states clearly that a man is responsible for the "necessities" and the women are responsible for the "nurturing"

 

The husband caries is primarily responsible for providing and protecting, his wife is his backup.  Likewise the nurturing stuff is primarily her responsibility, and he is her backup.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

There have been times where my job was a 2 hour commute there, 8 hours at work, and a 2 hour commute home.  Gone for 12 hours every day and too worn out to do much when I got home. There were times where I was unemployed and she had a full time job. Right now I get to work from home, and she is finishing her degree which takes up all her time, so I'm working full time and managing the home (although the kids are older now so it its an easier job than before).  A year from now she'll be working full time not too far from home so the household stuff will get evened out between us.  You just get done what needs to be done, although when it comes to housework I'm nowhere near as good at it as she is.

[NeedleinA]

I read a quote on here about house cleaning and young children a couple months ago(?) that I believe came from Eowyn(?).

 

"Trying to keep your house clean with little kids at home is like trying to brush your teeth while eating Oreos, it doesn't work"

(something like that)

 

So much more to life than keeping my house looking like the temple with 4 kids. After reading that quote, I take life a lot easier and don't beat myself up so much. Thanks!

[Guest]

I read a quote on here about house cleaning and young children a couple months ago(?) that I believe came from Eowyn(?).

 

"Trying to keep your house clean with little kids at home is like trying to brush your teeth while eating Oreos, it doesn't work"

(something like that)

 

So much more to life than keeping my house looking like the temple with 4 kids. After reading that quote, I take life a lot easier and don't beat myself up so much. Thanks!

 

I hear ya.

 

Cleanliness is really more about instilling clean habits than having an HGTV home.  Little kids are still building those clean habits so making a mess is a constant part of their lives just as much as picking up after the mess is - even if it's still quite a mess because they can't quite do it as good as mommy and daddy can.  The habit is what we're after which they get to build upon as they grow older and are more responsible.

[omegaseamaster75]

On 1/25/2016 at 9:35 AM, Shoot_The_Moon said:

My wife and I have been seeing someone from LDS Family Services for marital issues.

 

During our discussions, the counselor has expressed the following:

 

•  President David O. McKay’s teaching that “No success can compensate for failure in the home...” is not scripture given by a modern day prophet.
• Covenants made in the temple do not dictate responsibilities of the parents in the home.
• A parent’s “season” of their life is not determined first and foremost by the needs of the family and household.
• Self-medicating with things that are not drugs / alcohol / pornography is an acceptable coping mechanism because everyone does it.
• Cleanliness and order in the home is a matter of personal preference, not a duty or obligation
• The various scriptures in the D&C that speak of the Lord’s house being a house of order have to deal with “priesthood order”, and not actually logistical or organizational order / cleanliness, and that when President Kimball said “Whatever your circumstance, let your premises reflect orderliness, beauty, and happiness”, he was talking about a particular period of time and not outlining a timeless principle. (Which is really confusing, because it’s pretty well spelled out here, here, and here).

 

It was my understanding that LDS Family Services counselors are themselves members, and are expected to counsel in a manner that adheres to the mainstream doctrines of the church, not based first on secular ideology or their own opinions that go counter to the doctrines.

 

This person is the only one available in our area, and we would have to travel for hours to see someone else.

 

According to this page, apostasy is " is repeatedly acting in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its faithful leaders, or persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching false doctrine."

 

So ... are they correct?  Should we still be seeing them, or does this qualify as apostasy and something I need to bring up to their supervisor / Priesthood Leader?

None of the items that you have listed as grievances are out of line with the doctrine of the church. You think this guy is an apostate? give me a break.

[thoughts]

Quote

•  President David O. McKay’s teaching that “No success can compensate for failure in the home...” is not scripture given by a modern day prophet.
• Covenants made in the temple do not dictate responsibilities of the parents in the home.
• A parent’s “season” of their life is not determined first and foremost by the needs of the family and household.
• Self-medicating with things that are not drugs / alcohol / pornography is an acceptable coping mechanism because everyone does it.
• Cleanliness and order in the home is a matter of personal preference, not a duty or obligation
• The various scriptures in the D&C that speak of the Lord’s house being a house of order have to deal with “priesthood order”, and not actually logistical or organizational order / cleanliness, and that when President Kimball said “Whatever your circumstance, let your premises reflect orderliness, beauty, and happiness”, he was talking about a particular period of time and not outlining a timeless principle. (Which is really confusing, because it’s pretty well spelled out here, here, and here).

I presume you are seeing a counselor because you are having trouble in your marriage.   So going down the road of finding fault with the therapist is simply deflection.  

1.  The statement wasn't canonized, so technically it is not scripture by a modern prophet.   And it was never intended to be used to beat someone else over the head for their choices.  It was intended to prompt those who are seeking worldly things to remember failures in relationships cause more pain than anything else, and preventing that matters.

2.   I do not recall any temple covenants saying anything about who does what in a household or a marriage.   To the extent that women depend on husbands, it is because they seek the Lord, which means servant leadership (which is antithetical to even making the argument).

3.   To the extent I understand it, priorities are God, family and other.   Every parent does better when their own needs are met.  And couples may do better to spend some time talking rather than doing deep cleaning.   Partnership though, cannot be sublimated to family, practical matters, it it wants to survive.  Maybe for a short time, but not over the long haul.

4.   Spouses don't get to tell each other what coping mechanisms they can use, and they don't get to call each other wicked when they use coping mechanisms other than drugs/alcohol and porn.   (And even if they did, it would be futile since people never fix the things that annoy or trouble others because the others think they should or must.   If you want to change your spouse, praise their goodness.  Seek to understand where the things you don't like come from and change the way you view them.   No one has to like everything about their spouse, but they do have to shut up about judging or telling their spouse what to do and think.

5.   Well it is, so long as the minimum standard of cleanliness is met.   Usually the way it works is a couple figures out what the minimum standard should be (which may take some compromise), and then the partner who wants it cleaner must do the work to reach the standard they desire themselves.

6.  Even if you believe that the scripture is referring to how often the beds are changed or the trash taken out or the floor is swept, that still doesn't establish any specific level of household cleaning.

As others have pointed out, there is not a single word in the latest instruction we have  ---the Proclamation --- that says who is to mow the law or clean the toilet or what standards one must adhere to.  

What I deducted from OP is that wife reads romance novels and doesn't do enough housework, and dh is annoyed and tries to be controlling on the subject, which makes the wife feel unable to ever please him, and they both end up in the therapist's office.  When the therapist speaks up to break some of the dh's controlling ideas, his response classically explains how the marriage is in trouble because the dh decides that what she is saying is apostasy and she should have church discipline.

If my guess is in any part correct, I suggest the OP get serious in seeing the mote in his own eyes before he loses his wife (and if I were talking to his wife, I'd tell her that reading romance novels and expecting her dh to measure up isn't healthy for her marriage:that's why they are fiction).

 

[NeedleinA]

I often wish in cases like this the OP would return and provide an update as things progressed. I realize we are low on the totem pole of priorities, but it would be nice to know if anything we all have suggested have been put into practice and of benefit to he and his wife. 

[Guest]

Pres. McKay once gave an address to the Church Physical Facilities Department regarding the priorities we have to those around us.  

Let me assure you, Brethren, that some day you will have a personal priesthood interview with the Savior, Himself. If you are interested, I will tell you the order in which He will ask you to account for your earthly responsibilities.

First, He will request an accountability report about your relationship with your wife. Have you actively been engaged in making her happy and ensuring that her needs have been met as an individual?

Second, He will want an accountability report about each of your children individually. He will not attempt to have this for simply a family stewardship report but will request information about your relationship to each and every child.

Third, He will want to know what you personally have done with the talents you were given in the pre-existence.

Fourth, He will want a summary of your activity in your Church assignments. He will not be necessarily interested in what assignments you have had, for in His eyes the home teacher and mission president are probably equals, but He will request a summary of how you have been of service to your fellowmen in your Church assignments.

Fifth, He will have no interest in how you earned your living, but if you were honest in all your dealings.

Sixth, He will ask for an accountability on what you have done to contribute in a positive manner to your community, state, country, and the world."

Edited February 19, 2016 by Guest