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Reasons To Get Excommunicated


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#1 bunnzy

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 01:32 AM

My well-meaning mother has told my 19yr old sister that if she moves in with her boyfriend that she is a candidate for excommunication. I had never heard of this.
Is this really a legitimate reason for excommunication?
What other reasons are there for excommunication?
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#2 Gabelma

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 03:14 AM

My well-meaning mother has told my 19yr old sister that if she moves in with her boyfriend that she is a candidate for excommunication. I had never heard of this.
Is this really a legitimate reason for excommunication?
What other reasons are there for excommunication?
[/b]



Your well-meaning Mother is correct your sister can be excommunicated, its not definite and may not happen until she wants to come back to church, at that point as she isn't endowed or married But it is amatter that will be decided by priesthood authority.

Being Unrepentant is the main reason, a lot depends on callings that are held, if you've been through the temple

Usual ones are:

Chastity issues
Taking a life
And preaching false doctrine.

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#3 pam

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 05:00 AM

To add to the above:

Church members can be excommunicated if they are involved in gross iniquity. Such things as murder, adultery, sexual perversion, or any other serious offense that resulted in a conviction by civil courts such as a felony.

Any one that advocates or is involved in polygamy

Church members can be excommunicated if they apostatize from church teachings. Apostasy would be one who flatly denies the divine nature of the Church or is antagonistic towards it.

#4 sixpacktr

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 05:36 AM

Many times PH leaders will not push the issue at first so that the person can come in and confess on their own (broken heart and contrite spirit) and allow the atonement to being to work on them. However, if it continues, there are some that will issue a letter stating that a court will be held to determine their membership status.

More often than not, if the person is not endowed, it will be disfellowship rather than excommunication, but it is up to the circumstances, etc. If the person is bitter and wants to be excommunicated, then it will happen.

Now, if the person is endowed, it is a whole different ballgame...
That would not be difficult to express. I found most helpful to me was going to my knees thanking my HF for life, for experience, for my family, and then directly asking him to go before my face, to be on my right hand, to be on my left hand, and his spirit in my heart, and his angels round about me to bear me up. --Thomas S. Monson, Feb 4 2008 News conference upon becoming President of the LDS church.

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#5 pam

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 05:45 AM

Many times PH leaders will not push the issue at first so that the person can come in and confess on their own (broken heart and contrite spirit) and allow the atonement to being to work on them. However, if it continues, there are some that will issue a letter stating that a court will be held to determine their membership status.

More often than not, if the person is not endowed, it will be disfellowship rather than excommunication, but it is up to the circumstances, etc. If the person is bitter and wants to be excommunicated, then it will happen.

Now, if the person is endowed, it is a whole different ballgame...
[/b]


A question for you six. Something I've always wondered. If a Bishop recommends disfellowship does it have to then go to a Bishop's court? Or is this something the Bishop can do on his own?


#6 sixpacktr

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 06:03 AM

Those of you that have served in Bishoprics, pls correct me if I am wrong:

Pam, I believe that disfellowship requires a court. A Bishop has 4 tools at his discretion to help someone repent and be forgiven in the eyes of the church:

Informal Probation
Formal Probation
Disfellowship
Excommunication

The first 2 do not show up in a member's record, the other 2 do. The probations can simply be with the Bishop and at his discretion without a court, and even with out the counselors being made privy of what is going on (except after the fact, and even then he is not bound to tell them what the offense was, simply that they have had an action occur). The other two require a court, because it does become part of the record. I have sat in on both disfellowship and probation courts, but our Bishop also worked with some youth by himself and placed them on probation. It is up to him, really.

Probation is recorded, but only at a Stake level. Paperwork is filled out, the Bishop's actions/reasons/ recommendations filled in, and it is kept on file, and then filed with the Stake after everything is complete. But it is not part of a permanent file, so to speak.
That would not be difficult to express. I found most helpful to me was going to my knees thanking my HF for life, for experience, for my family, and then directly asking him to go before my face, to be on my right hand, to be on my left hand, and his spirit in my heart, and his angels round about me to bear me up. --Thomas S. Monson, Feb 4 2008 News conference upon becoming President of the LDS church.

Hard work won’t kill you, but why take the chance??
---Motto of the Democrat Party

#7 pam

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 06:09 AM

Thanks Six. I was always curious as to what level a court is required.

#8 Doctor Steuss

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 07:16 AM

Just a quick thought on excommunication. Although it may seem like a punishment, IMO it is an act of compassion.
"You don't have to be religious to have a soul; everybody has one. You don't have to be religious to perfect your soul; I have found saintliness in avowed atheists." -Rabbi Harold Kushner
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"It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine" -Joseph Smith

#9 Guest_Yediyd_*

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 07:31 AM

Just a quick thought on excommunication. Although it may seem like a punishment, IMO it is an act of compassion. [/b]

How so? Can you elaborate?

#10 Buzzyboy

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 07:56 AM

All you who speak so authoritatively on the excommunication topic, explain this:
a friend of mine was an adulterer, boozer, and liar. He was called to be a stake high counsellor. He admitted to his SP his past deeds. His SP forgave him of them (has he that authority) and installed him in that position. My friend later became a bishop. And even later became an alcoholic, drug abuser, prescription forger. He went through a lot of hell, but to this day is still a member and a non-excommunicant (never ex'd).
Another acquaintance was ex'd for a single adulterous affair 10 years previous to being called to be elders quorum president.
Sounds like a bit of revelation/inspiration inconsistency here. But you authorities on the subject have an answer I'm sure.


#11 checkerboy

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 08:09 AM

Hey I just wanted to put in my two cents. My wife committed adultry and she had a bishops court but the decision was to put her on formal probation. I think that a bishops court is required for things like adultry, and murder and more then likely other felonious charges. But the decision is made after the court meets. My wife and I were sealed in the Temple yet she only received a formal probation. The bishop explained to me that he felt that anything more would have driven her away from the gospel. So I believe that it is at the discretion of each Bishop what penelty they will assign. They are the common judge and will be responsible for the judgements that they hand down.
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#12 sixpacktr

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 08:34 AM

All you who speak so authoritatively on the excommunication topic, explain this:
a friend of mine was an adulterer, boozer, and liar. He was called to be a stake high counsellor. He admitted to his SP his past deeds. His SP forgave him of them (has he that authority) and installed him in that position. My friend later became a bishop. And even later became an alcoholic, drug abuser, prescription forger. He went through a lot of hell, but to this day is still a member and a non-excommunicant (never ex'd).
Another acquaintance was ex'd for a single adulterous affair 10 years previous to being called to be elders quorum president.
Sounds like a bit of revelation/inspiration inconsistency here. But you authorities on the subject have an answer I'm sure.
[/b]

My oh my, so bitter. And so sure of what is happening inside the walls of a Bishop's/SP's office so that you can make the decision yourself...

Checkerboy was right. It is up to the discretion of the presiding authority. And yes, revelation plays a big part of it.

But go ahead, bash away. I'm sure that your anger and cynicism is very justified...
That would not be difficult to express. I found most helpful to me was going to my knees thanking my HF for life, for experience, for my family, and then directly asking him to go before my face, to be on my right hand, to be on my left hand, and his spirit in my heart, and his angels round about me to bear me up. --Thomas S. Monson, Feb 4 2008 News conference upon becoming President of the LDS church.

Hard work won’t kill you, but why take the chance??
---Motto of the Democrat Party

#13 Doctor Steuss

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 09:09 AM

[quote]
<div class='quotemain'> Just a quick thought on excommunication. Although it may seem like a punishment, IMO it is an act of compassion. [/b][/quote] How so? Can you elaborate?
[/b][/quote]

Covenants are essentially nullified, thus lessening accountability.

"You don't have to be religious to have a soul; everybody has one. You don't have to be religious to perfect your soul; I have found saintliness in avowed atheists." -Rabbi Harold Kushner
"A good man, is a good man, whether in this church, or out of it." -Brigham Young
"It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine" -Joseph Smith

#14 Jason

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 09:31 AM

What other reasons are there for excommunication? [/b]


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#15 StrawberryFields

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 09:33 AM

Those of you that have served in Bishoprics, pls correct me if I am wrong:

Pam, I believe that disfellowship requires a court. A Bishop has 4 tools at his discretion to help someone repent and be forgiven in the eyes of the church:

Informal Probation
Formal Probation
Disfellowship
Excommunication

The first 2 do not show up in a member's record, the other 2 do. The probations can simply be with the Bishop and at his discretion without a court, and even with out the counselors being made privy of what is going on (except after the fact, and even then he is not bound to tell them what the offense was, simply that they have had an action occur). The other two require a court, because it does become part of the record. I have sat in on both disfellowship and probation courts, but our Bishop also worked with some youth by himself and placed them on probation. It is up to him, really.

Probation is recorded, but only at a Stake level. Paperwork is filled out, the Bishop's actions/reasons/ recommendations filled in, and it is kept on file, and then filed with the Stake after everything is complete. But it is not part of a permanent file, so to speak.
[/b]


Great Topic BTW.

The first two... how do they differ and who is ones membership changed? Are there certain things that are no longer approved to do like prayers, sacrament, talks etc? Also is there a time frame, is there follow up required?





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#16 Buzzyboy

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 09:47 AM

[quote]
<div class='quotemain'>
All you who speak so authoritatively on the excommunication topic, explain this:
a friend of mine was an adulterer, boozer, and liar. He was called to be a stake high counsellor. He admitted to his SP his past deeds. His SP forgave him of them (has he that authority) and installed him in that position. My friend later became a bishop. And even later became an alcoholic, drug abuser, prescription forger. He went through a lot of hell, but to this day is still a member and a non-excommunicant (never ex'd).
Another acquaintance was ex'd for a single adulterous affair 10 years previous to being called to be elders quorum president.
Sounds like a bit of revelation/inspiration inconsistency here. But you authorities on the subject have an answer I'm sure.
[/b][/quote]
My oh my, so bitter. And so sure of what is happening inside the walls of a Bishop's/SP's office so that you can make the decision yourself...

Checkerboy was right. It is up to the discretion of the presiding authority. And yes, revelation plays a big part of it.

But go ahead, bash away. I'm sure that your anger and cynicism is very justified...
[/b][/quote]


#17 sixpacktr

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 10:39 AM

[quote]
So cute, Sixpactr. Just the kind of moronic response and spin I expected.
[/b][/quote]
:roflmbo:

Thanks for the laugh. And good comeback. Must have taken a lot of thought, that one...

[quote]
<div class='quotemain'>
Those of you that have served in Bishoprics, pls correct me if I am wrong:

Pam, I believe that disfellowship requires a court. A Bishop has 4 tools at his discretion to help someone repent and be forgiven in the eyes of the church:

Informal Probation
Formal Probation
Disfellowship
Excommunication

The first 2 do not show up in a member's record, the other 2 do. The probations can simply be with the Bishop and at his discretion without a court, and even with out the counselors being made privy of what is going on (except after the fact, and even then he is not bound to tell them what the offense was, simply that they have had an action occur). The other two require a court, because it does become part of the record. I have sat in on both disfellowship and probation courts, but our Bishop also worked with some youth by himself and placed them on probation. It is up to him, really.

Probation is recorded, but only at a Stake level. Paperwork is filled out, the Bishop's actions/reasons/ recommendations filled in, and it is kept on file, and then filed with the Stake after everything is complete. But it is not part of a permanent file, so to speak.
[/b][/quote]

Great Topic BTW.

The first two... how do they differ and who is ones membership changed? Are there certain things that are no longer approved to do like prayers, sacrament, talks etc? Also is there a time frame, is there follow up required?
[/b][/quote]
I no longer have access to the CHI, so I'm going from memory here a little bit, but probation is really up to the discretion of the Bishop as to the DOs and DON'Ts. Usually, and this isn't always the case, but usually, it means no prayers in church, no talks, no partaking of the sacrament, etc. But again, this is really up to the Bishop. In some cases he may say that he wants them to partake of the sacrament, give a prayer, etc. It depends upon the spiritual needs of the person.

I'm going to redact a bit of what I said before. I think that only formal probation is recorded and sent on to the Stake. I think that informal is just between the Bishop and the member (althought counselors are sometimes present, especially if that is the finding of the Bishop's court), and there is no written record that exists, but I'm a tad fuzzy on that now...
That would not be difficult to express. I found most helpful to me was going to my knees thanking my HF for life, for experience, for my family, and then directly asking him to go before my face, to be on my right hand, to be on my left hand, and his spirit in my heart, and his angels round about me to bear me up. --Thomas S. Monson, Feb 4 2008 News conference upon becoming President of the LDS church.

Hard work won’t kill you, but why take the chance??
---Motto of the Democrat Party

#18 StrawberryFields

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 11:08 AM

Thanks for your reply Sixpacktr.... How did you come up with that name anyway.... :hmmm:



We are all being watched.... StrawberryFields

#19 tiancum

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 11:30 AM

Ok quick question,

Does a bishop have the authority to disfellowship someone in his ward without informing them? Or even holding a council?

Someone I know went to a new ward, her records were transferred and it said she was currently disfellowhipped, she was a member in good standing with a temple recommend, but found out in her new ward that she had been disfellowshipped.
.
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#20 sixpacktr

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 11:42 AM

Thanks for your reply Sixpacktr.... How did you come up with that name anyway.... :hmmm:
[/b]

From my fabulous abs???

Nah. More like 'onepack' :P

From a predeliction towards 'adult beverages'???

Nah. Never have once touched the stuff.

Actually, it is the slang for a 6 cylinder car, namely a 1968 Triumph TR250. the 1st 6 cylinder car they made. Triumph has a club called '6pack' referring to TR250s and TR6s, and I borrowed it years ago when I made my email account...

Ok quick question,

Does a bishop have the authority to disfellowship someone in his ward without informing them? Or even holding a council?

Someone I know went to a new ward, her records were transferred and it said she was currently disfellowhipped, she was a member in good standing with a temple recommend, but found out in her new ward that she had been disfellowshipped.
[/b]

A court has to occur for a disfellowship. HOWEVER, if the person accused does not show up, then the court will be held without their presence.

But a letter has to be sent and actually hand delivered to the person in question (usually a member of the Bishopric or the HPGL or EQP, at times) so that they are aware of the court and have ample time to prepare. In fact, a letter has to go out for any court, as far as I remember. It is a way to avoid people claiming they didn't know about the court.

Not being in your friend's last ward or privy to what happened, I'd be amiss to even conjecture what happened...
That would not be difficult to express. I found most helpful to me was going to my knees thanking my HF for life, for experience, for my family, and then directly asking him to go before my face, to be on my right hand, to be on my left hand, and his spirit in my heart, and his angels round about me to bear me up. --Thomas S. Monson, Feb 4 2008 News conference upon becoming President of the LDS church.

Hard work won’t kill you, but why take the chance??
---Motto of the Democrat Party




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