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I don't intend this to be a church criticism post. Let me be clear: I have a testimony of the gospel. However, there are some things I've always wondered, and have never found an answer that feels exactly right. I'd just like some other perspectives. 

I grew up with inactive LDS parents who are not sealed in the temple.  As a child this really bothered me...with all the talk of forever families I wondered what that meant for mine. The only answers I can get are: "It will all work out in the heavens" or "Its about sealing everyone back to Christ; not who you're gonna be with in heaven" or something close to these explanations.  So, what I wonder is; well....if it's not about who we will be with, why does it matter? Why the push for a "forever family"?  If it's all gonna be worked out in heaven (I won't be denied blessings because my parents aren't sealed) why is it so important?  I have absolute faith that it WILL all be fine because I believe in a loving God, but when there is such a HUGE focus on this, why aren't there more clear answers? I can't believe that a righteous, loving family just won't be together in the after life because they didn't go through a ceremony in a specific building.  What about those couples who have circumstances we can't put into our neat little boxes? Such as; a couple who are sealed, but the man dies early and the woman remarries someone who can't be sealed to her because she's already sealed but they have children and live 60 years together? Or my grandmother who out-lived all 3 husbands and loved each of them the same. (And there are dozens of other scenarios).  Perhaps this is what the mellenium is for, so I keep my faith that God has a plan I just can't understand in my mortal state.  But it seems our idea of what SHOULD be is very idealistic and limited.  

I often also wonder...what could be done with all the time, effort and money that goes into the temples themselves and then the hours spent working and attending them? Could we not do more good by serving those ALIVE? Even if the symbolic ceremonies need to be done on earth, could we not have less extravagant places to do it? 

 

 

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I guess I would expect them to be nice and clean, and well built, but not extravagant or expensive. I see perhaps the importance of having a place different from the world to remind us of the eternal plan, but I think that can be done without the expense. I don't think God needs lush and expensive. But your comment brings me to my other points.  Is it God's house, or a house for US on earth to symbolize God and heaven? Just my thoughts....

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I don't see them as extravagant or expensive at all. Do they cost a lot of money to build? Of course, all buildings do. The interior though is not extravagant, but fitting for the beauty that is symbolic of what the temple is for. Not just because it is a house of God, but because of the purpose behind the ordinances performed and the symbolism behind everything. 

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Reese,  perhaps you are not aware of all that the church does to serve the living.  Have you seen this site - https://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/humanitarian-services.html

or this one https://www.ldscharities.org  You can also learn more here http://www.pbs.org/mormons/themes/humanitarian.html.

This article is a good summary http://utahvalley360.com/2014/12/16/6-great-programs-lds-humanitarian-aid-supports/

 

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On 24/06/2016 at 1:38 AM, Reece said:

I don't intend this to be a church criticism post. Let me be clear: I have a testimony of the gospel. However, there are some things I've always wondered, and have never found an answer that feels exactly right. I'd just like some other perspectives. 

I grew up with inactive LDS parents who are not sealed in the temple.  As a child this really bothered me...with all the talk of forever families I wondered what that meant for mine. The only answers I can get are: "It will all work out in the heavens" or "Its about sealing everyone back to Christ; not who you're gonna be with in heaven" or something close to these explanations.  So, what I wonder is; well....if it's not about who we will be with, why does it matter? Why the push for a "forever family"?  If it's all gonna be worked out in heaven (I won't be denied blessings because my parents aren't sealed) why is it so important?  I have absolute faith that it WILL all be fine because I believe in a loving God, but when there is such a HUGE focus on this, why aren't there more clear answers? I can't believe that a righteous, loving family just won't be together in the after life because they didn't go through a ceremony in a specific building.  What about those couples who have circumstances we can't put into our neat little boxes? Such as; a couple who are sealed, but the man dies early and the woman remarries someone who can't be sealed to her because she's already sealed but they have children and live 60 years together? Or my grandmother who out-lived all 3 husbands and loved each of them the same. (And there are dozens of other scenarios).  Perhaps this is what the mellenium is for, so I keep my faith that God has a plan I just can't understand in my mortal state.  But it seems our idea of what SHOULD be is very idealistic and limited.  

I often also wonder...what could be done with all the time, effort and money that goes into the temples themselves and then the hours spent working and attending them? Could we not do more good by serving those ALIVE? Even if the symbolic ceremonies need to be done on earth, could we not have less extravagant places to do it? 

 

 

The Lord means the families to be forever. It is a crucial part of His plan of hapíness for us. Free agency is also an important aspect of the plan, so we need to consider what the LORD wants and what WE want in this matter. If you feel bothered that your parents aren't sealed, it's a just feeling and worth considering. Their agency at the moment of not being sealed can't and shouldn't influence YOUR agency of having your own sealed famaly, though. For instance, my parents are sealed but not active. I feel bad about it, but it's their choice at the moment. I love them and always tell them how great our Heavenly Father's love for us all is and encourage them to become active in the gospel. All in all, it's their choice, their agency. Me? I have been working on having my family sealing made sure. My wife and I work every single day on our celestial marriage and the spiritual welfare of our children. I'm using my agency to work this out and although I kinda suffer with my parents's absence, I'm happy to be on the way to Heaven. 

About the temples, they are the Lord's house. They belong to Him and that is what matters to me. The pattern for the temples since ancient times has always been this: the house of the Lord must be the best place on earth. You may think temples are extravagant, but what they really are is a piece of Heaven on Earth. Please, think about that.

Love you 

Edited by Edspringer
grammar
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3 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Reese,  perhaps you are not aware of all that the church does to serve the living.  Have you seen this site - https://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/humanitarian-services.html

or this one https://www.ldscharities.org  You can also learn more here http://www.pbs.org/mormons/themes/humanitarian.html.

This article is a good summary http://utahvalley360.com/2014/12/16/6-great-programs-lds-humanitarian-aid-supports/

 

Thanks for the input. I am well aware. I just think SO much more could be done with the time, and $ dedicated to temple work. 

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1 hour ago, Edspringer said:

The Lord means the families to be forever. It is a crucial part of His plan of hapíness for us. Free agency is also an important aspect of the plan, so we need to consider what the LORD wants and what WE want in this matter. If you feel bothered that your parents aren't sealed, it's a just feeling and worth considering. Their agency at the moment of not being sealed can't and shouldn't influence YOUR agency of having your own sealed famaly, though. For instance, my parents are sealed but not active. I feel bad about it, but it's their choice at the moment. I love them and always tell them how great is our Heavenly Father for us all and encourage them to become active in the gospel. All in all, it's their choice, their agency. Me? I have been working on having my family sealing made sure. My wife and I work every single day on our celestial marriage and the spiritual welfare of our children. I'm using my agency to work this out and although I kinda suffer with my parents's absence, I'm happy to be on the way to Heaven. 

About the temples, they are the Lord's house. They belong to Him and that is what matters to me. The pattern for the temples since ancient times has always been this: the house of the Lord must be the best place on earth. You may think temples are extravagant, but what they really are is a piece of Heaven on Earth. Please, think about that.

Love you 

That's just it....we all "suffer" or are blessed because of loved ones decisions. Why would something SO important for OUR eternal happiness and salvation be determined by another's decisions? We are doing our best as well. This doesn't change what my parents do. They are now divorced and will never be sealed. My husband and I have both previously been sealed and now our kids are not sealed to me because my sealing had to be nullified to be sealed to him...or are they? Have they been essentially punished for their parents mistakes? It's these unanswered things that I wonder about. 

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3 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Dear Reece,  I suggest that you go to the temple and pray in the celestial room.

Oh, I have...and I do. Like I said, I have faith things will work out. But still, no one has concrete answers for families who have less than ideal stories. Divorces, remarriage, kids and parents who don't believe, etc.   You either fit into the happily forever after scenario or you don't.  

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5 minutes ago, Reece said:

Thanks for the input. I am well aware. I just think SO much more could be done with the time, and $ dedicated to temple work. 

So you priorities the living over the dead?   While I understand that mindset I think it is because you don't understand the magnitude of the numbers and the suffering that exists beyond death.

How many hundreds of millions have died without the ordinances of the gospel?  How many of those numbers have been taught the gospel since the Lord opened up the spirit world to missionary work two thousand years ago?  How many are stuck knowing the truth of the gospel but being unable to progress because their ordinance work has to be done vicariously by the living and that has only been going on in limited numbers for two hundred years?

There is a huge back log of human suffering that only the temple can fix... and you want less time and effort put toward it?  That show a limited vision of what the Lord is doing.

 

 

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Reece said:

Mostly I want answers for the living so the importance of it for the dead is understood more. 

Your questions are related to Sealing...  Sealing are one ordinance performed...  There are other ordinances

 

Lets start with the basics...

Do you understand the importance of baptism?

Can you understand why it is important to the living.... if so can you understand the importance for all.

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Reece said:

Thanks for the input. I am well aware. I just think SO much more could be done with the time, and $ dedicated to temple work. 

Well, in that case, no offense but you need to remember this is the Lord's work not yours. He knows better than we do what is needful.

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You've asked a lot of good questions here Reece, I'll try to address them all--

* Your parent's sealing-- your parent's sealing will be done, whether it by them in this life or vicariously afterwards.  Yes, I see that you posted they are currently divorced: in the highly probable event they don't get back together in this life, the sealing will still be done vicariously.   Does this mean that they have to honor it and get back together?  Of course not!  But they have the option if they choose it (our God is a God of having choices and not of forcing).  Will maybe your dad be sealed to your step-mom?  Maybe, if that is his choice.  

* Now, whether or not your parents choose to accept and honor the sealing ordinance is the next question.  Let's say that they do: yeah!  If they don't: then that is their choice and God will force no one to accept His gifts.  When will we know if they did/didn't accept?  Judgement day-- which is the answer for your parents, me, and everyone else in this world (men can never Judge another).

* "But what if they don't? Am I going to punished because they didn't?"   No, you will not be punished if your parent's don't accept their sealing.  Will you miss them if, or be sad about their choices?  Quite probably.  Will you be overall happy?  Beyond your wildest dreams--- the Lord takes care of His.  

 

Did I manage to hit your main questions?

Edited by Jane_Doe
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Reece,

to add my two cents:

You could say that in Mormon theology that really everything comes down to being about the temple. The ultimate aim of this life is to be baptized, and be married for eternity. So that's a big reason why the church focuses on temple so much.

I disagree that the temples themselves are extravagantly costly. Not compared to many Catholic cathedrals, by comparison. Temples are made to the standard of a nice typical US living room. Now, if you think we are building too many temples, then you have a point about the expense, because that adds up. But as I said, the temples are central to our religion, so I don't think the church is building too many. They build as many as church members will utilize, and no more.

The time spent in temples is apparently one of the most important things that goes on in this world. Everyone must have their temple ordinances done, whether in person or vicariously. This point is clear from the teachings of the prophets. People who do temple work are doing a great, Christian service. It is one of the best things you can do with your time - its is a blessing for eternity.

About the ideal family - yes, the church teaches the ideal, which is the traditional family with a father, mother, and kids. They must teach the ideal. If you think church members are sometimes insensitive to families that don't fit the ideal, then I think you are right.

However, the thing is, as you said, it will all work out. Sorry to repeat that, but it's true.

Going to the temple to be "sealed" isn't actually the goal - it's going to the temple to be sealed, AND THEN having that ordinance sealed by the Holy Spirit, which is not automatic, and depends entirely on your faithfulness to your covenants and living the gospel. We call it "being sealed in the temple," but the actual real sealing comes later, and is something God decides to grant you.

The important thing is to live the gospel in whatever circumstance you find yourself, and work toward the ideal goal, whether that happens sooner or later. Faithfulness is the key to it "all working out."

 

 

Edited by tesuji
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So... the Temples in the Philippines (there's 2 of them) are magnificent buildings and costed a lot of money.  Not even 10 miles away from both temples is extreme poverty.  So, when the temples were getting built, a lot of Filipino Mormons felt uneasy because they have first-hand experience on the hardships of the people around them and all the work the EQ and RS do to help these people on a shoestring Bishop's budget.  So then, Filipino Mormons wonder... why did the Church build such a magnificent structure that cost so much.  Why didn't they just put the temple in a modest house of worship like the ward buildings and put that money saved on the Bishop's budget to help the poor?

But then they progressed farther into the gospel and learned that they need temple ordinances to make more covenants.  And tons of Filipino Mormons got their temple recommends but can't do anything about it because they don't have the means to go out of the country.  Even after the temple in Manila was completed, people from Central and Southern Philippines still found it difficult to go to the temple and so a lot of them held their temple recommends in their pockets, cherished them, remained faithful to them, and prayed that a temple will be built closer to them.

Well, the First Presidency don't just build temples anywhere.  One of the requirements for a temple to be built in an area is if there is a lot of members that are temple worthy (includes tithes) in the area that will necessitate the building of the temple.  So, all these Filipino Mormons in Central and Southern Philippines put a priority on missionary work as well as temple preparation.  They worked soooo hard!  And finally... the temple in Cebu got built.  The joy of these Mormons when the temple finally opened was palpable.  All of a sudden, the cost and expense of building such a House of the Lord seemed all worth it now.  They understood that the work inside these temples are worthy of ANY cost.

Now, imagine the people who have died.  They know they need temple ordinances to progress.  The difference between them and us is... they are completely dependent on the living to do their temple work.  They can't do missionary work, they can't pay tithes, they can't do much to get somebody living to perform their work.  I imagine that out there in the Spirit World, the spirits know that a temple is worthy of ALL of Cesar's money.

Just my 2 cents.

 

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8 hours ago, Reece said:

Thanks for the input. I am well aware. I just think SO much more could be done with the time, and $ dedicated to temple work. 

5 hours ago, tesuji said:

You could say that in Mormon theology that really everything comes down to being about the temple. The ultimate aim of this life is to be baptized, and be married for eternity. So that's a big reason why the church focuses on temple so much.

Malachi 3:4~5 is the only passage I know of that is found (usually with minor or even significant modifications) in each of the five standard works. It's in the Old Testament (obviously). Gabriel refers to it in Luke 1:

Quote

17  And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of [Elijah], to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Here's Moroni in the Pearl of Great Price (JS-H)

Quote

38 And again, he quoted the fifth verse thus: Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. 39 He also quoted the next verse differently: And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers. If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.

Christ gave this to the Nephites in Bountiful:

Quote

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord; And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

In the Doctrine and Covenants, section 2:

Quote

Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.

It's there five more times, as well.

Except for Malachi, each of these was at the very beginning of a new dispensation. In Malachi, it was the last thing before the apostasy of Judah left them without prophets.

Temples are, indeed, the center of the Plan of Salvation: we cannot attain the glories God would give us without them. Whatever money they cost, how much we spend on Family History research and participating in the ceremonies there, these costs are trivial compared to the blessings we receive. We, and our ancestors. We and those others we work for.

The sacrifices of the Saints to build Temples, from Adam to Thomas S. Monson don't begin to out weigh the value of the blessings we receive in them.

I'll quote one more passage, Doc&Cov 120:

Quote

Verily, thus saith the Lord, the time is now come, that [the tithe] shall be disposed of by a council, composed of the First Presidency of my Church, and of the bishop and his council, and by my high council; and by mine own voice unto them, saith the Lord. Even so. Amen.

My name isn't there. I'd be surprised if any of ours is in this passage. If the Lord wants to spend my* money building Temples, I will not only fail to object, but support Him fully.
* It stops being "my money" the instant I hand the envelope to the bishop.

Lehi
 

Edited by LeSellers
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8 hours ago, changed said:

so your real concern is having confidence in seeing where you personally fit into the big picture?  We're all imperfect - I think we've all been down that 'there is no way that I will make it to the celestial kingdom' road - but those bad feelings do not come from your Heavenly family - they come from that little red guy sitting on your shoulder... don't listen to that negative voice!!  It's not about having faith in yourself and how good you can be - it's about having faith in God and in what He can make out of you!

Do some temple work for your own family members and you will start feeling connected to it all.

I do temple work for my ancestors. I feel I am doing my part. I have complete faith that God knows my heart and my abilities and it's not about me feeling like I can't make it. It's about me feeling like...the church teaches (or has no answers for) the people like me and my children who have divorced parents, are sealed to someone they didn't end up living with, etc. I guess the answer is...no one knows. Maybe it's just something we can't fit into our limited belief system or perception in this mortal life. 

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30 minutes ago, Reece said:

I do temple work for my ancestors. I feel I am doing my part. I have complete faith that God knows my heart and my abilities and it's not about me feeling like I can't make it. It's about me feeling like...the church teaches (or has no answers for) the people like me and my children who have divorced parents, are sealed to someone they didn't end up living with, etc. I guess the answer is...no one knows. Maybe it's just something we can't fit into our limited belief system or perception in this mortal life. 

Or maybe God set it up that way as a test of Faith.

Because if you truly have faith in Christ you wouldn't need to understand anything more then his promise that no blessing would be denied those that humbly and faithfully follow him.

There are many that claim that they have faith... but then want the path they are to fully illuminated and given to their understanding before they act...  While understandable that is not faith... that is logic and reason

True faith is when we jump out into the darkness because God told us to...  trusting in his promises as our only assurance.

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8 hours ago, changed said:

so your real concern is having confidence in seeing where you personally fit into the big picture?  We're all imperfect - I think we've all been down that 'there is no way that I will make it to the celestial kingdom' road - but those bad feelings do not come from your Heavenly family - they come from that little red guy sitting on your shoulder... don't listen to that negative voice!!  It's not about having faith in yourself and how good you can be - it's about having faith in God and in what He can make out of you!

Do some temple work for your own family members and you will start feeling connected to it all.

I do temple work for my ancestors. I feel I am doing my part. I have complete faith that God knows my heart and my abilities and it's not about me feeling like I can't make it. It's about me feeling like...the church teaches (or has no answers for) the people like me and my children who have divorced parents, are sealed to someone they didn't end up living with, etc. I guess the answer is...no one knows. Maybe it's just something we can't fit into our limited belief system or perception in this mortal life. 

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13 hours ago, Reece said:

That's just it....we all "suffer" or are blessed because of loved ones decisions. Why would something SO important for OUR eternal happiness and salvation be determined by another's decisions? We are doing our best as well. This doesn't change what my parents do. They are now divorced and will never be sealed. My husband and I have both previously been sealed and now our kids are not sealed to me because my sealing had to be nullified to be sealed to him...or are they? Have they been essentially punished for their parents mistakes? It's these unanswered things that I wonder about. 

Consequences are part of our existence. That being said, the only things that have a lasting effect on your own salvation, are your own choices. And no, they arent being punished. I dont see anything that would prevent them from being resealed later should they so desire it and are worthy. As for nullification i dont know exactly but if they didnt specify your kids I would not assume that they are included in the nullification.

 

13 hours ago, Reece said:

Thanks for the input. I am well aware. I just think SO much more could be done with the time, and $ dedicated to temple work. 

 

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Continued.

Its an easy trap to get sucked into; to notice something of value that is easy to see and think of some purpose tha seems nobler to us that the worth thereof would be better applied to.... When in reality we totaally miss all the the effort and material that goes unseen into those efforts we wish upon. Usually compounded by the fact that we ignore our lack of effort and sacrfice for such causes while criticising others of it.

In regards to the temple we regard people on both sides of veil as of being of great worth, and our leaders are constantly urging us to do more, both in templework and towards our fellowmen who are with us in mortality. And most of us could do more in both cases.

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