No charge for Pulse victims


pam
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I think think this is totally awesome what these hospitals  are doing.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/pulse-orlando-nightclub-shooting/os-orlando-health-wont-bill-pulse-victims-20160824-story.html

 

Orlando Health and Florida Hospital will not bill survivors of the Pulse nightclub massacre for out-of-pocket medical expenses, officials announced Wednesday.

Instead, the hospitals will write off an estimated $5.5 million or more in care.

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13 hours ago, pam said:

I think think this is totally awesome what these hospitals  are doing.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/pulse-orlando-nightclub-shooting/os-orlando-health-wont-bill-pulse-victims-20160824-story.html

 

Orlando Health and Florida Hospital will not bill survivors of the Pulse nightclub massacre for out-of-pocket medical expenses, officials announced Wednesday.

Instead, the hospitals will write off an estimated $5.5 million or more in care.

So $5.5 million is out-of-pocket medical expenses? No wonder health care cost are out of control.  The pockets of medical providers are way to deep.

 

The Traveler

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8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

So $5.5 million is out-of-pocket medical expenses? No wonder health care cost are out of control.  The pockets of medical providers are way to deep.

 

The Traveler

I'm not so sure that this is an outrageous amount of money for what happened.  44 people taken to the hospitals.  Some of them just barely hanging onto life.  

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54 minutes ago, pam said:

I'm not so sure that this is an outrageous amount of money for what happened.  44 people taken to the hospitals.  Some of them just barely hanging onto life.  

 

Pam – as much as I think you are a wonderful, kind and good person – you portray exactly what I hate most about the health care system in this country.  Please let me illustrate – a young family takes a child to the doctor’s office with a broken arm for which they learn that the x-rays, bone setting and treatments will cost in excess of $15,000.  The father realizes that some 25 years ago he broke his arm in a similar manner and it cost less than $500?  He expresses concern over what the treatment costs.   The response, in essence, is – how much is your child worth to you?  Wouldn’t you be willing to pay 10 times the cost for your child being restored to full health?  And besides – you have insurance –isn’t this preciously what insurance is for?  All you have to pay is the $20 copay.

 

The Traveler

 

PS. Recently a friend of mine was transported to the hospital emergency with sever road rash and a broken collar bone from a bicycle accident – he lost control from derby in the road during a decent while traveling in excess of 45 mph.  The broken collar bone required surgery (screws and stuff) but he was able to walk away from the hospital within 24 hours – total cost for that day at the hospital? $75,000.  BTW – a year later he still has gravel imbedded under his skin on his right shoulder and the right side of his head.

Edited by Traveler
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4 hours ago, pam said:

I'm not so sure that this is an outrageous amount of money for what happened.  44 people taken to the hospitals.  Some of them just barely hanging onto life.  

Some, but how many of those 44 had relatively minor injuries?  $125,000 average is still way too high considering several were likely on their way home with a bandage and a script for antibiotics and painkillers after a <5 minute talk with the doc.

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9 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

Pam – as much as I think you are a wonderful, kind and good person – you portray exactly what I hate most about the health care system in this country.  Please let me illustrate – a young family takes a child to the doctor’s office with a broken arm for which they learn that the x-rays, bone setting and treatments will cost in excess of $15,000.  The father realizes that some 25 years ago he broke his arm in a similar manner and it cost less than $500?  He expresses concern over what the treatment costs.   The response, in essence, is – how much is your child worth to you?  Wouldn’t you be willing to pay 10 times the cost for your child being restored to full health?  And besides – you have insurance –isn’t this preciously what insurance is for?  All you have to pay is the $20 copay.

 

The Traveler

 

PS. Recently a friend of mine was transported to the hospital emergency with sever road rash and a broken collar bone from a bicycle accident – he lost control from derby in the road during a decent while traveling in excess of 45 mph.  The broken collar bone required surgery (screws and stuff) but he was able to walk away from the hospital within 24 hours – total cost for that day at the hospital? $75,000.  BTW – a year later he still has gravel imbedded under his skin on his right shoulder and the right side of his head.

Perhaps I should have made myself a little clearer.  I was basing my comment on what the current costs of healthcare are.  I am not disagreeing at all that the costs are horrendous.  I know from experience as well.  I have to do 2 self injections a month at home.  Each of them cost $3000 a piece.  At least that is what they charge my medical insurance carrier.  Do I think they are too much?  You bet I do.

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16 hours ago, pam said:

Perhaps I should have made myself a little clearer.  I was basing my comment on what the current costs of healthcare are.  I am not disagreeing at all that the costs are horrendous.  I know from experience as well.  I have to do 2 self injections a month at home.  Each of them cost $3000 a piece.  At least that is what they charge my medical insurance carrier.  Do I think they are too much?  You bet I do.

 

Thanks for your input – I do respect your views and insight.  At the same time – I have a prejudice concerning the health care industry.  Hospitals are run as a business not a charity.  Every Hospital I deal with and know about cannot exist without a profit for their services.  This means that someone must pay for every service they provide and that the payment is paid by someone.  When they do not charge someone – someone else pays.  Since hospitals are a business they charge and make a profit. 

The term hospital came from the crusades and is connected to the term hospitality – which actually is rooted in service not merchant or trade for profit.  It is my personal belief that every one that seeks health care (emergency) should pay what-ever they are able and that society as a charity and service should pick up the rest and everyone should receive the same treatment.  Perhaps I am a socialist – but I do not think so.  I have basically the same view of salvation and the mercy of G-d.

 

The Traveler

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On 8/26/2016 at 4:13 PM, Traveler said:

 

Thanks for your input – I do respect your views and insight.  At the same time – I have a prejudice concerning the health care industry.  Hospitals are run as a business not a charity.  Every Hospital I deal with and know about cannot exist without a profit for their services.  This means that someone must pay for every service they provide and that the payment is paid by someone.  When they do not charge someone – someone else pays.  Since hospitals are a business they charge and make a profit. 

The term hospital came from the crusades and is connected to the term hospitality – which actually is rooted in service not merchant or trade for profit.  It is my personal belief that every one that seeks health care (emergency) should pay what-ever they are able and that society as a charity and service should pick up the rest and everyone should receive the same treatment.  Perhaps I am a socialist – but I do not think so.  I have basically the same view of salvation and the mercy of G-d.

 

The Traveler

The flaw in this thinking is the idea that because something is done for a charity and service that it doesn't incur a cost.  SOMEONE has to pay.  Now, the American socialist idea is that someone ELSE has to pay besides me because someone makes more money than me.  That's why socialism fails everywhere it is tried.  And that is why a hospital run as a business is a better model.  Capitalism guarantees that costs are controlled and price is checked.  Same way that your food is not socialist - it's capitalist.  And if there's nothing else one can say about America, it is that America has an abundance of cheap food.

But then, American hospitals are not run on a Capitalistic paradigm anymore due to government over-reach.  And that's why you have big problems.  It may have cost you $20 bucks to set a bone in 1960 whereas it cost you $20,000 today... hospitals didn't have to pay a 20 million-dollar lawsuit for causing pain when setting a bone back in 1960 either.

 

Edited by anatess2
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On August 29, 2016 at 10:08 AM, anatess2 said:

But then, American hospitals are not run on a Capitalistic paradigm anymore due to government over-reach.  And that's why you have big problems.  It may have cost you $20 bucks to set a bone in 1960 whereas it cost you $20,000 today... hospitals didn't have to pay a 20 million-dollar lawsuit for causing pain when setting a bone back in 1960 either.

I'm not sure I completely agree with Traveler, but I will say that capitalism based on supply and demand does not work well when we are talking about someone dying if they do not receive treatment. 

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On 9/4/2016 at 4:38 PM, james12 said:

I'm not sure I completely agree with Traveler, but I will say that capitalism based on supply and demand does not work well when we are talking about someone dying if they do not receive treatment. 

You mean anatess, right?

Capitalism, of course, works for this same paradigm.  Think about it - if you don't eat you die.  Yet, capitalism works with food stuff.

It is interesting how Americans spend gazillions on their houses, cars, video games and budgets barely anything on their education and healthcare. 

Edited by anatess2
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On 9/4/2016 at 3:38 PM, james12 said:

I'm not sure I completely agree with Traveler, but I will say that capitalism based on supply and demand does not work well when we are talking about someone dying if they do not receive treatment. 

One common misconception about capitalism is that one is somehow "forbidden" from doing something from an altruistic motivation.  Not true.  Anyone is allowed.  And in our own history, many have.  Even during the Laissez-Faire era of the 1800s charitable giving and personal time and efforts were quite common and even encouraged.  The only thing was that it was voluntary and not because government forced you to.

The irony is that in today's environment of government over-reach, charitable efforts such as giving free food to the homeless at Central Park is being shut down because "government must make sure that the food is healthy".

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6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

One common misconception about capitalism is that one is somehow "forbidden" from doing something from an altruistic motivation.  Not true.  Anyone is allowed.  And in our own history, many have.  Even during the Laissez-Faire era of the 1800s charitable giving and personal time and efforts were quite common and even encouraged.  The only thing was that it was voluntary and not because government forced you to.

The irony is that in today's environment of government over-reach, charitable efforts such as giving free food to the homeless at Central Park is being shut down because "government must make sure that the food is healthy".

Did you hear about those girls that left a plate of cookies on their neighbor's front porch?  They got sued and the judge ordered them to pay $900...

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10 hours ago, anatess2 said:

You mean anatess, right?

Capitalism, of course, works for this same paradigm.  Think about it - if you don't eat you die.  Yet, capitalism works with food stuff.

It is interesting how Americans spend gazillions on their houses, cars, video games and budgets barely anything on their education and healthcare. 

What? Americans spend barely anything on healthcare? I beg to differ. American's spend more per capita on healthcare than almost any other country in the world (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.PCAP?locations=US&name_desc=true). This amounts to about $9,400 per person per year. That's more than an average car payment and more than almost anyone spends on video games.  

I'll think about the food vs healthcare comment.

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12 hours ago, james12 said:

What? Americans spend barely anything on healthcare? I beg to differ. American's spend more per capita on healthcare than almost any other country in the world (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.PCAP?locations=US&name_desc=true). This amounts to about $9,400 per person per year. That's more than an average car payment and more than almost anyone spends on video games.  

I'll think about the food vs healthcare comment.

No... Health Insurance pays for Healthcare, a majority of which is paid for by either the Government or Employers.  Look at your paycheck.  How much are YOU paying for your healthcare?

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I have the joy of being an anal retentive bean counter.  Been using MSMoney for over a decade.  I know what my family of 4 pays out of pocket for healthcare.  Here - look at this cool chart I made.  This includes every check I wrote, every bill I paid, every prescription, every insurance premium I paid.  It also includes any and all refunds I've received.  It's truly a correct out of pocket amount, totally independent of whatever money my insurance pays providers.

dlme.png

I have excellent insurance through my employer.  We just have a lot of medical bills and hit the out of pocket cap every year.

[Edit - that massive spike in '13 did result in some tax write-offs, which are not reflected here.  But offhand, I doubt the writeoff amounted to more than $1k or so in tax burden savings.]

Edited by NeuroTypical
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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have the joy of being an anal retentive bean counter.  Been using MSMoney for over a decade.  I know what my family of 4 pays out of pocket for healthcare.  Here - look at this cool chart I made.  This includes every check I wrote, every bill I paid, every prescription, every insurance premium I paid.  It also includes any and all refunds I've received.  It's truly a correct out of pocket amount, totally independent of whatever money my insurance pays providers.

dlme.png

I have excellent insurance through my employer.  We just have a lot of medical bills and hit the out of pocket cap every year.

[Edit - that massive spike in '13 did result in some tax write-offs, which are not reflected here.  But offhand, I doubt the writeoff amounted to more than $1k or so in tax burden savings.]

You're a rare breed.

I didn't have regular insurance until Obamacare forced me to have one.  I put ~$400 to a Health Savings account and ~$100 per month to self-insure for Hospital and Surgical only.  The HSA I can give to the kids/grandkids/anybody if we end up not using it.  Right now, my HSA (that we quit paying into when Obamacare started 2 years ago), has more in it than what my dad paid for his entire lung cancer treatment.

My parents did not have insurance either.  My dad put money aside for healthcare, lived a healthy, holistic lifestyle with regular doctor check-ups paid out of pocket.  But my dad still ended up with lung cancer.  He tried to pay for his entire cancer treatment out of his own pocket but us, kids, wanted him to keep his money to leave for my mother.  We enrolled him in a clinical trial for Avastin so his meds and doctors were free.  We paid for the rest - about $2,000/month we divided among us kids.  He insisted on leaving the trial because he wanted to go home.  We continued his chemo outside of the trial at $10,000 per month just for the meds.  He gave us the money to pay for the meds.  When he died, my brother took over his bank account.  We realized he has saved up enough money for his health and retirement to make him a multi-millionaire even after shelling out ~$10,000/month for over a year.  We are not worried about my mother's retirement and healthcare costs but we, the kids, are still paying for her daily meds and her living expenses to keep dad's money for heavy rainy days.

My dad's brother had prostate cancer.  His sister had breast cancer, his other sister ovarian cancer.  All of them do not have health insurance and they all live in the Philippines - no government programs to take advantage of.  The prostate cancer guy lived for over 20 years before finally succumbing to it.  The family paid for his healthcare out of their own pockets.  The breast cancer and the ovarian cancer gals flew to the US to get treatment.  They paid for their stuff out of their own pockets as well.  They are both in remission for over a decade now.

What is common between these siblings besides the cancer... they all lived modest lives and saved up money all throughout their lives for healthcare costs.  My dad refused to buy me Converse shoes when Converse was a big thing back in the 80's.  I was 14 years old and went to work so I can buy Converse.  I used to wonder where his money goes... now we know.  If my mom passes peacefully leaving dad's money intact, the money will just stay there for any of the kids and grandkids to use if we end up with major medical costs.

Capitalism - when not interfered for by government - will make it so that our savings can actually AFFORD healthcare costs instead of having to pay $20 for one band-aid at the ER.  As it stands, being multi-national helps us as we get our regular healthcare stuff in the Philippines where things are cheaper and doctors still know how to diagnose (they don't spend money on lab work when it is not necessary just so they can protect themselves from being sued!).  We use American healthcare for the things America is super good at - the latest medical advancements in things like cancer treatment, biomedical engineering (especially in prostheses work), etc.

Okay, here's something that just happened last February - my son has been complaining of back pain.  We go to a holistic pediatrician and she referred us to this orthopaedic specialist.  The ortho guy was useless - he simply followed the protocol that the insurance covered even after we told him we are willing to pay out of pocket - he seemed like he didn't even know any other method except for what the insurance protocol is.  He took x-rays and sent my son to the Physical Therapist. 

The pain was not getting any better so I called my brother (neurologist) on the phone (he's in the Philippines) and he asked questions and reviewed the x-rays and bloodwork that the lab took.  He said to go get an MRI.  We go back to the ortho guy and told him we need an MRI.  The ortho guy said no, the insurance won't pay for it.  I said, we'll pay for it out of pocket.  He didn't want to do it... he wanted us to do this electro-something first (which the insurance covers).  The lab won't give us an MRI without doctor's referral.  So, we went ahead and did the electro and that produced nothing so the doctor gave my son a cortizone shot.  The cortizone didn't even ease the pain at all!  So the ortho finally got the MRI.  The ortho looked at the MRI results and said there's nothing wrong.  So, he gave us perscription pain meds for 30 days.  I didn't get the meds.  Instead, I took the MRI and sent it to my brother.  My brother said, the MRI they used was old tech but from what he DOESN'T see between the xray, the MRI, and his bloodwork, he told us we need to go to a chiropractor and tell the chiro to specifically do thoracic manipulation for mobility.  The chiro did an evaluation and told us he needs to do x,y,z we told him, if you can just do the thoracic thing we'll try that first and if that doesn't work, we'll do something else.  The chiro was pretty easy going so he did it.  That very first visit my son's pain was GONE.  GONE.  The cost of the chiropractor was less than the prescription pain meds if we would have paid it out of pocket.  As it stands, the insurance paid for all of it so it costs us nothing.  Somebody else is paying for all that extra cost for the useless procedures.  My brother diagnosed the problem by phone call and file sharing and it's not even neuro-related.  Now, if this would have happened in the Philippines, my brother (who is the family doctor - even performs circumcision even as a neurologist) would not have needed the MRI, he would most likely do the x-ray and bloodwork and do some diagnosis by feel and then send the kid to the chiro.  Costs a whole lot less than what the ortho here did so it would have been a cost we could cover.  That extra money would have saved some other guy from dying.  Oh, we don't pay my brother because he's family.  But, at the same time, he does a lot of live-saving neuro work for people in our hometown and they show up in his office with a bunch of chickens or bananas for payment...

The thing is... when you are young and vibrant but you know that you are responsible for your own healthcare, you tend to think twice about chugging that 64 ounce theater soda.  Healthcare costs, in general, becomes cheaper as people take more responsibility for their own lifestyles.  The really bad cases - being born with degenerative diseases, etc., can then be covered with the help of charitable people - like the Family, people like my brother, St. Jude's and such.  The government can step in for safety-net purposes and not as a standard source of care.  Costs stay down as the preservation of CHOICE in a regulated-but-not-too-much capitalistic market makes sure it stays down.

 

Edited by anatess2
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Pondering:    What about the thousands of other people every single day that come to the hospital and are severely traumatized by what has happened to them?  Don't they also deserve 'free' care then?  What about other similar situations?  Theater, school, bank or dance club shootings?  Is that the new standard then?  Everyone who is hurt due to a shooter is 'traumatized' so they get free medical care.  Now we can argue that being traumatized is a personal reaction.  What traumatizes one to the point of mentally checking out may not effect another and they go on with life with a different attitude.  It was a nice thing to for the hospital - and a big part is simply for the free news coverage they get from it - but now it's arguable that others are just as deserving or even more deserving of the same. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, james12 said:

Anatess, My father had a heart attack and consequently a sextuple bypass and a valve burst. I believe the bill was about 2.5 million dollars. Are you suggesting it would be best to save up to pay for this out of pocket? Sorry but there are some advantages to health insurance. 

Of course there's advantages to health insurance.  I have one.  Hospital and Surgical only until Obamacare nixed that.  My dad didn't.  He had lung cancer for 4 years.  Would have cost us a lot more than your dad's bypass if we didn't get that clinical trial.   That said, you don't need insurance for a standard fever or well checks or cough meds or even an MRI, or birth control pills... or any other thing Obamacare requires out of very single health insurer.  And there's no reason why I can't buy health insurance from Montana if I live in Florida.  And there's no reason why I have to have my employer pay for the thing.

Health Insurance can still be capitalist!

Edited by anatess2
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The idea that I should get a bill or have to directly pay for any treatment resulting from a trip to a hospital emergency department is completely ludicrous! The idea that the quality of care or the kind of procedure that I receive should in any way be influenced by considerations of cost is equally bizarre. Hospitals and many other health services in Australia are funded in full or in part by a 1.5% surcharge on everybody's income. 

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