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Baptism ???


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#1 Heckya

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 12:44 AM

If you are baptised as a child, but have no understanding of the baptism or of Christ does it count?
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#2 inthearmsofsleep

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 01:00 AM

HECK YA!
Actually, no. Here's a segment from mormon.org:

Jesus Christ taught by example that everyone must be baptized of water and of the Spirit (the Holy Ghost) for the remission, or forgiveness, of sins. Through baptism by one who holds priesthood authority and through receiving the Holy Ghost, you can be spiritually reborn.
When you have repented, and are baptized and confirmed by one with the priesthood authority given by God, you receive a remission of your sins ( Acts 2:38). You make a covenant, or promise, with God to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, to follow Him, and to keep His commandments. In return, He promises to forgive your sins and let you return to live with Him, provided you keep your covenants. You are briefly immersed in water, as Jesus Christ was baptized. Baptism by immersion is a sacred symbol of the death, burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, and it represents the end of your old life and the beginning of a new life as a disciple of Jesus Christ.

Little children do not need to be baptized until they reach the age of accountability, which is eight years of age, as they are redeemed through the mercy of Jesus Christ ( Moroni 8:4–24; Doctrine and Covenants 68:27).

So basically, children are innocent because they have no knowledge of right and wrong until they reach a certain age. This makes it impossible for them to sin, therefore needing no repentance and no baptism until a certain age when they are more aware of the consequences of the decisions they make.

#3 Heckya

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 01:08 AM

So if I was baptised when I was 8 (baptised lds), but didn't understand it, then it doesn't count? I want to be clear....I'm still confused. I was baptised because my mother wanted me to be, but I don't recall learning much about baptism or what it meant. I'm sure I learned some things, but the day of baptism I was just scared and confused. I don't recall ever really understanding much about Christ or the church until high school and I'm really still just learning the basics.
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#4 inthearmsofsleep

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 01:14 AM

So if I was baptised when I was 8 (baptised lds), but didn't understand it, then it doesn't count? I want to be clear....I'm still confused. I was baptised because my mother wanted me to be, but I don't recall learning much about baptism or what it meant. I'm sure I learned some things, but the day of baptism I was just scared and confused. I don't recall ever really understanding much about Christ or the church until high school and I'm really still just learning the basics.

Oh, I see what you mean. I was baptized at age 8 as well, and I didn't feel like I knew much about Christ or this gospel, but I did it anyway. Since then I've grown to know so much more and more about the purpose of baptism. Since it was done under proper authority and I understood what I could for the age I was, it wasn't done in vain. Every week we renew our baptismal covenants when we take the sacrament, so even if we didn't understand it as well as we should have when we were first baptized, we have the chance to be sort of "re-baptized" and renew those same promises.... to always remember Christ and keep his commandments.

#5 Heckya

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 01:21 AM

Thanks for the answer. I've never really felt like it meant anything. I have wanted to do it again so it was done for the right reasons and because I had understanding of it...I remember asking my mom the morning I was baptised why I had to do it. Her answer was because your grandparents want it done and I'd feel wierd if you weren't.
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#6 inthearmsofsleep

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 01:24 AM

Thanks for the answer. I've never really felt like it meant anything. I have wanted to do it again so it was done for the right reasons and because I had understanding of it...I remember asking my mom the morning I was baptised why I had to do it. Her answer was because your grandparents want it done and I'd feel wierd if you weren't.

All you'd have to do is take the sacrament with faith and knowing what it means to you ;)

#7 Heckya

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 01:25 AM

I understand that. It just doesnt' seem like enough. I'm sure it will in time. Thanks for the answers.
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#8 rameumptom

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 09:31 AM

Baptism at 8 years of age is done because that is when a child BEGINS to understand right from wrong and begins to be accountable. There is no magic door one enters that suddenly makes us responsible for all knowledge and understanding. Baptism at 8 is supposed to occur when the child has been taught the basic principles of the gospel. Often it is done without enough teaching, IMO. I'm a strong believer that we should not baptize people of any age into inactivity.
Still, the baptism done at 8 actually becomes active when the person is ready to live the covenants made in baptism. We renew our covenants in the Sacrament, and when we become ready and worthy of the Lord's blessings, whether at 8 or 80, the promises made to us by God are fulfilled. He promises to send us the Gift of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion, when we are worthy to have His companionship. That can just as easily occur now as then. While rebaptism may not be in the cards for you, you can seek and enjoy the fruits of righteous living: the companionship of the Holy Ghost, at any time.

#9 inthearmsofsleep

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 10:05 AM

Baptism at 8 years of age is done because that is when a child BEGINS to understand right from wrong and begins to be accountable. There is no magic door one enters that suddenly makes us responsible for all knowledge and understanding. Baptism at 8 is supposed to occur when the child has been taught the basic principles of the gospel. Often it is done without enough teaching, IMO. I'm a strong believer that we should not baptize people of any age into inactivity.
Still, the baptism done at 8 actually becomes active when the person is ready to live the covenants made in baptism. We renew our covenants in the Sacrament, and when we become ready and worthy of the Lord's blessings, whether at 8 or 80, the promises made to us by God are fulfilled. He promises to send us the Gift of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion, when we are worthy to have His companionship. That can just as easily occur now as then. While rebaptism may not be in the cards for you, you can seek and enjoy the fruits of righteous living: the companionship of the Holy Ghost, at any time.

Well-put.

#10 NeuroTypical

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 10:14 AM

Heckya sounds a lot like me. I got baptized, as well as made a Deacon, then Teacher, then Priest, then Elder - all before I had anything close to a testimony. I went through the motions and didn't want to embarass myself.

At the end of the day, being baptized doesn't mean much unless you're willing to accept the covenants that go with it. And those covenants don't mean much, if you do not have faith in Christ.

Here's the order it should go:
1. Have Faith in Christ
2. Repent of our sins
3. Baptism
4. Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Some people like me (and maybe heckya) kind of do it out of order. So heckya, I'd urge you to take the time to learn for yourself if God exists, Jesus is His son, Joseph Smith was a prophet, and if the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be.

And don't feel bad because you aren't all the way there yet. You're sure not alone.

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#11 NateHowe

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 11:26 AM

The phrase in confirmation, "Receive the Holy Ghost," is a command as well as a bestowal. When a person who has been baptized and confirmed by the proper authority lives in harmony with the teachings of Christ and seeks for the Holy Ghost to be with him or her constantly, the gift is activated, the command is fulfilled, and the baptism is fully effective.

As a worthy member of the Church, an additional way you can renew and reenact your baptismal covenant is to perform baptism by proxy in the Temple. The Sacrament is the true weekly renewal of covenant, but Temple baptisms are a wonderful, physical reminder of the covenant.

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#12 LdsNana

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 12:16 PM

Let me share a few of my thoughts regarding the first four principles and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ -

These are they, which bring us to Baptism; and of course - the ordinance of Baptism is what is referred to here... (ultimately the Baptism of Fire)

It is the work of the Mormon Church, to teach nothing else but these things.

I have pondered deeply upon these things and firmly believe that all doctrine and principles that are taught... are literally founded and continue on these four.

A verse in scripture I have come to view as a guiding star is in the D&C -

47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.

Herein, lies the power of these FOUR -

To RECEIVE the Holy Ghost as one's constant companion is literally EXALTATION!

Once an individual chooses, by the process of coming unto Baptism; they are rewarded, by God -- to walk toward Him directly -- a mentor for life eternal...

Bottom line: Anyone, who receives the Gift of the Holy Ghost (not talking simply having the ordinance performed) and truly RECEIVES Him; the Spirit of God, will then bring them into all truth for their salvation and Exaltation...

Therefore, it is the mandate of a disciple of Christ to walk this walk themselves and bring others unto the path.

The above scripture reference is confirmation that once a person has been given the Holy Ghost AND receives it; the ultimate and assured destination is EXALTATION.

Does that mean all we need is the FIRST FOUR? Heavens NO. That is false doctrine being taught today.

But - WE are required to follow a path that has been laid before us and WALK ourselves to the House of the Lord....

Baptism gives us 'right' of citizenship in the Kingdom of God; but we must keep the laws of the land in order to have residence therein.

Every knee will bow, every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ.

To accept or receive Jesus Christ is done by faith unto Baptism. Thus the great work of the Millennium.

Don't confuse the doctrine of 'The Kingdom of God' and 'The Kingdom of Heaven'. They are different.

Anyone, who receives an inheritance into any of the Kingdoms, must acquire membership;

be it telestial, terrestrial or CELESTIAL.

Thus, the true doctrine of 'baptism is the gate'

THE POWER OF FOUR!
  • FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST
  • REPENTANCE
  • BAPTISM BY IMMERSION FOR REMISSION OF SINS
  • LAYING OF OF HANDS - ORDINANCE FOR THE RECEIVING OF 'THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST'
47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.

HERE AGAIN... is the greatest IF and THEN contract ANYONE can enter into and it is FREE!


4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

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#13 Elphaba

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 12:36 PM

He promises to send us the Gift of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion, when we are worthy to have His companionship.

So are you saying an 8-year-old might not be worthy of this?

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#14 MissouriBoiler

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 01:03 PM

My immediate family and I wee tracted out by the Missionaries when I was 12. We went to church every week but didn't immediately get baptized. Every member of my family got baptized on different days. :) Kind of funny when I look back on it.

I was the last. I was fourteen and thought I had felt better in my year or so of attending the LDS faith than I ever had before. I didn't want to do it just because my family had. I wanted to know.

I prayed very directly about it on my bedside, got very clear response to my prayer(Not sure I had really had a clear answer to my prayer before that) I was baptized.

I wouldn't say I was truly converted to follow heavenly father though until a year later when I was in a testimony meeting on a boy scout encampment where the spirit was so strong amongst us Young men. From that point on I knew what I was going to do and felt converted.

I felt like I was making a covenant with Heavenly Father at Baptism because it is what I needed to do but I didn't feel truly converted to give my life to his work till a later point.

#15 Guest_AutumnBreez_*

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 01:46 PM

Does an average eight year old know the difference between right and wrong, good and bad choices that come across in their 8th year of life? Yes!
ie, Obey mother and father, its not right to steal, lie, kill, they know this by eight. They should be accountable for their actions, good and bad. They in turn should make goal/promise not to do evil works but that of good and service others. Train them up.

Topical Guide: Teaching, Teach, Taught Many scriptures in bible not just BOM.
A child from infancy needs guidance, firm and consistant rules, and an education. Kindergarten aged child should not be expected to know algebra anymore than a teen to know algebra if you did not teach basic math (1+1=2) along the way. Teach them about God's love and his commandments as early as possible is just as fitting. True?
Let the world teach them along the way....mixed messages will be the result. If it doesn't hurt anyone else kind of attitude and result.

#16 Guest_AutumnBreez_*

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 01:57 PM

Converts being converts it takes a bit of time for things to sink in, especially if they have not been taught along the way.
Point out also:Free agency is still there even if you train them up in the Lord.
They can still go their own way in adulthood.
You are not going to deny them primary and secondary school, because they may later not want to use it. You start school at age 5 on average.

#17 LdsNana

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 03:53 PM

So are you saying an 8-year-old might not be worthy of this?

Elphaba


Depends.. on a rare occassion, perhaps so. I personally have NEVER heard of such a thing. But, when thinking upon it... I have know a few 8 year olds, who definitely need to repent of things in preparation for a baptism. Baptism even for 8 is not a pass... they too, must be interviewed for worthiness, etc...

So yes, this would be possible. Although, hard to imagine things could not be taken care of very quickly at this tender age of learning...

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#18 Heckya

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 06:58 PM

I don't recall being interviewed for baptism, but if it's what happens, I must have been. I remember being interviewed every year when I was a teenager...well until I 15, then I really stopped going to church. Anyhow, I seriously can't believe the bishop approved my baptism. I really don't recall knowing who Jesus was other than that was why we celebrated Christmas. I must have answered his questions just right. My guess is that I looked like a dear in headlights through the whole thing, but I don't remember the interview at all. Maybe he thought if he didn't approve it, it wouldn't ever happen? That wouldn't surprise me. I didn't know him ever well until he wasn't bishop anymore...when I was a teen we toilet papered his house quite regularly (my best friend dated his son). He was always a good sport about it.

Anyhow, the sad thing is that I've never felt like a real member of the church because my baptism was done for such poor reasons. Taking sacrament just doesn't feel like enough to remedy the feelings. I wish my baptism would have been under my terms. The only reason why my baptism has meaning to me is because my grandpa baptised me. In fact, he was the only reason I didn't run screaming from the room...otherwise I would have. I remember trying not to cry because I was so scared. In fact, I remember the whole day vividly.
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#19 Brother Dorsey

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 08:18 PM

The problem lies with the parents of the child being baptized. If they rush to get the kid dunked and then don't follow through with the childs spiritual education the child will never develop a testimony, never learn the Gospel and never have the blessings.
My 6 year old is looking forward to the day he will be baptized because he knows why he will be doing it...not to please mom and dad, but because the Lord wants him to.
Far too many parents don't prepare their children or even teach them the Gospel. Far too many parents call in the missionaries a few months before the childs 8th birthday and expect them to teach their kids. WRONG! As parents WE are responsible for teaching our children the righteous doctrines of the Gospel, not the missionaries, not primary teachers, not even grandparents....WE are responsible....it's on our heads. To answer the OP's question...absolutely you are responsible for your baptism...you may have not understood the covenants or the reason but you can learn the covenants and reason and then live up to them if you choose to. Good luck and lets all TEACH our children the Gospel!!! Ho-Rah!
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#20 jadams_4040

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 08:41 PM

So if I was baptised when I was 8 (baptised lds), but didn't understand it, then it doesn't count? I want to be clear....I'm still confused. I was baptised because my mother wanted me to be, but I don't recall learning much about baptism or what it meant. I'm sure I learned some things, but the day of baptism I was just scared and confused. I don't recall ever really understanding much about Christ or the church until high school and I'm really still just learning the basics.

And at 8 years old we are just old enough to understand the differance between right and wrong, not all the principles of the church, And if someone might beleive this is a way to "get" young people into the church without knowing what they are really doing, I suggest all that the other posters have allready replyed and add myself that just because someone was baptised does not make them an l.d.s, its the confirmation after baptism that confirms them an l.d.s and gives one the Gift of the Holy Ghost. and this is not a lifetime punishment, if someone grows older and doesnt beleive in this church they can always quit, Baptism at 8 years old is not a sentence of punishment or mandatory condemnation to hell as some would suggest. But it is a definate positive introduction into the Truest Church on the face on the earth does When followed gospel principles offer and give us many blessings that are not received any other way, I can understand other people questioning baptism and confirmation at the age of 8 , But nobody can deny the blessings derived thereof.:)




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