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Rise in hate crimes against Mormons


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#1 Guest_jwild_*

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 11:25 AM

Have you noticed an increase in hate crimes against Mormons here in the United States. It is small, but two incidents in this month alone make me wonder if there are more to come? I think a lot of this is due to the amount of attention the FLDS have been getting.



There on the LDS.net news page

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#2 JohnBirchSociety

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 11:34 AM

There is not such thing as a "hate" crime. In fact the idea of trying to prosecute "hate" crime is evil. You cannot know the mind of an individual, and a person should never be punished for what they think. Example: If I were to murder a gay man, would it be a "hate" crime? How would you be able to tell? In this PC world of ours, the last thing we need it "hate" crime legislation. Personally, if I were on a jury and such a charge was made, I'd say "not guilty" because there is no means to determine a persons thoughts.
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#3 JcDean78

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 11:49 AM

Yes as of late there has been a lot more discussion of our faith but thats not a bad thing. Attacks against others be them LDS, Muslim, Gay, or anything else people are afraid of will always happen. John though is correct that Hate Crime laws are immoral. Killing is already against the law (unless its your baby then apparently thats ok). We need to focus on the evidence and not the feelings... but thats the eternal struggle between liberals and conservatives. Feelings vs facts.

#4 prisonchaplain

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 12:20 PM

There is not such thing as a "hate" crime. In fact the idea of trying to prosecute "hate" crime is evil. You cannot know the mind of an individual, and a person should never be punished for what they think.

Example:

If I were to murder a gay man, would it be a "hate" crime? How would you be able to tell?

In this PC world of ours, the last thing we need it "hate" crime legislation.

Personally, if I were on a jury and such a charge was made, I'd say "not guilty" because there is no means to determine a persons thoughts.


Actually many "hate crimes" are obvious in motivation. Additionally, many murder trials hinge on prove motive. It is possible to prove motivation beyond a reasonable doubt.

So, if someone were to vandalize an LDS building, and scroll "Die polygamous Mormon devils!" it would not be too difficult to prosecute it as a hate crime.

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#5 WillowTheWhisp

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 12:32 PM

Have you noticed an increase the increase in hate crimes against Mormons here in the United States. It is small, but two incidents in this month alone make me wonder if there are more to come? I think a lot of this is due to the amount of attention the FLDS have been getting.



There on the LDS.net news page

LDS Mormon Network


I'm sorry I didn't see any articles about hate crimes when I clicked on that link.

I must admit I haven't noticed anything of that nature over here. There are and always have been people who think the polygamist groups are part of our church but I haven't noticed anything 'anti' because of recent events.

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#6 NeuroTypical

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 01:01 PM

There is not such thing as a "hate" crime. In fact the idea of trying to prosecute "hate" crime is evil. You cannot know the mind of an individual, and a person should never be punished for what they think.

Well, I'm no particular fan of the pc agenda behind hate crimes, but I disagree with you here on several levels.

* Hate crimes are not about punishing people for what they think, but the crimes they commit.
* Intent and motive, to the best of our ability to discern, has always been part of figuring out what someone's guilty and not guilty of. That ain't evil - it's an attempt to give appropriate justice. Imperfect, yes. Evil, no. It's the heart we can't judge - that's God's territory.
* Sometimes an individual does indeed give you insight into their mind.

If I were to murder a gay man, would it be a "hate" crime? How would you be able to tell?

If you spray painted 'die you gay ****' on his body, that might give us a hint don't you think?

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#7 Guest_jwild_*

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 01:19 PM

Calling it a hate crime goes to show motive. It describes the persons reason for committing the crime. Creating legislation that punishes one motive over another is a totally different subject.

The fact is that both of these crimes were committed this month, against Mormons, out of hate. Hate was the motive in both cases. I hope we don't see anymore of these.


WillowTheWhisp

The articles (or rather links) are on the second page.

here are some direct links
Anti-Mormon Graffiti Sprayed On LDS Family's Home

azcentral.com | Phoenix Arizona News - Arizona Local News

and here is a report of the Church's response. It Doesn't say much but I would imagine there will be a few new mission rules. Like not answering the door at 4 a.m.


Mormon Church Reacts To Report Of Beaten Missionary

#8 JohnBirchSociety

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 01:47 PM

Well, I'm no particular fan of the pc agenda behind hate crimes, but I disagree with you here on several levels.

* Hate crimes are not about punishing people for what they think, but the crimes they commit.
* Intent and motive, to the best of our ability to discern, has always been part of figuring out what someone's guilty and not guilty of. That ain't evil - it's an attempt to give appropriate justice. Imperfect, yes. Evil, no. It's the heart we can't judge - that's God's territory.
* Sometimes an individual does indeed give you insight into their mind.

If you spray painted 'die you gay ****' on his body, that might give us a hint don't you think?

LM


If I murder a gay man, and don't spray paint 'em, or do anything else other than kill 'em, how can that be a hate crime?

It's just murder.

If I steal a car from a person of color, aren't I just stealing a car?

Motive may be used to show that a person had a reason to do something, but the motive itself isn't the crime.

It's almost as if society is say, go ahead and commit crime, as long as it is against a plain old person...
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#9 JohnBirchSociety

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 01:49 PM

Calling it a hate crime goes to show motive. It describes the persons reason for committing the crime. Creating legislation that punishes one motive over another is a totally different subject.

The fact is that both of these crimes were committed this month, against Mormons, out of hate. Hate was the motive in both cases. I hope we don't see anymore of these.


WillowTheWhisp

The articles (or rather links) are on the second page.

here are some direct links
Anti-Mormon Graffiti Sprayed On LDS Family's Home

azcentral.com | Phoenix Arizona News - Arizona Local News

and here is a report of the Church's response. It Doesn't say much but I would imagine there will be a few new mission rules. Like not answering the door at 4 a.m.


Mormon Church Reacts To Report Of Beaten Missionary


To attempt to punish "motive" as an additional element of crime is like trying to punish thought...

I think even the Book of Mormon teaches against the punishment of thought...
"Outside of a Dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a Dog it's too dark to read." -Anonymous

#10 Guest_jwild_*

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 02:13 PM

I take it that you have issues with the legal system? If a bunch of kids spray paint a house with stupid stuff like the name of their favorite rock band and another group spray paints die Mormon! Watch your back! (which is what happened) then I think it is pretty clear that there is a difference. The one is juvenile mischief the other is an intentional act thats sole intent is to terrorize the indented victim. Bullying and other wise degrading people is different than juvenile mischief. Anyway... call it what you want. If you don't like the term "hate crime" then call it something else. Either way you look at it violence against Mormons has become an issues this month, and that both surprises me and worries me. And I do think it has a lot to do with the media not clearly stating the difference between LDS an FLDS.

#11 NeuroTypical

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 02:40 PM

If I murder a gay man, and don't spray paint 'em, or do anything else other than kill 'em, how can that be a hate crime?

From what I can tell, there needs to be evidence of hatred in order to be a hate crime. So in the case you present, where someone randomly kills someone else who just happens to be gay, no hate crime.

Motive may be used to show that a person had a reason to do something, but the motive itself isn't the crime.

Right - it's an aggrivating circumstance. That's my main beef against 'hate crime' legislation. Someone was particularly viscious and hateful? Just add it as a mitigating factor to sentencing deliberations and have done with it. That way, you're not a slave to someone's legislated political agenda. I'm with you there.

LM
If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack, to sit in the synagogue and pray.
And maybe have a seat by the Eastern wall.
And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men, several hours every day.
That would be the sweetest thing of all.

Ohhh....
If I were a rich man...

#12 boloki

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 03:46 PM

Remember the missionary in Brazil who was killed. That was a hit-and-run. I consider that a hate crime.

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#13 JcDean78

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 04:47 PM

If they spray paint "Die Mormon" then that is a threat and totally different. It does not matter if it says "Die Joe you ugly person" or "Die you cause I dont like you", its all the same. A motive has its place in estblishing a with murder if it was intended or not. The factors of motive already come into play now and we do not need any more laws to try and look into peoples minds and protect one "group" of people over another group. So if a KKK member kills a person of color then is that worse than if they killed a fellow clansman? Murder is murder, assault is assault. If you commit a crime against another person... its a crime already!

#14 DHK

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:20 PM

Maybe THAT'S why my license plate was stolen last week!
"But make no mistake about it, brothers and sisters; in the months and years ahead, events will require of each member that he or she decide whether or not he or she will follow the First Presidency. Members will find it more difficult to halt longer between two opinions (see 1 Kings 18:21). President Marion G. Romney said, many years ago, that he had "never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, or political life" (CR, April 1941, p. 123). This is a hard doctrine, but it is a particularly vital doctrine in a society which is becoming more wicked. In short, brothers and sisters, not being ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ includes not being ashamed of the prophets of Jesus Christ." - Neal A. Maxwell, October 10th, 1978.

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#15 Jenamarie

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:28 PM

Maybe THAT'S why my license plate was stolen last week!


Was it in one of those "RULDS2" frames? :lol:

#16 sixpacktr

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 08:30 PM

Hate crimes are just an attempt to legislate thought. It is as ridiculous as the latest thing about how a criminal doesn't say that they are sorry after being convicted. The outcry from that is worse than the original crime. (So, they raped and killed your 9 year old daughter? Did he say he was sorry? No?! Why, that dirty rotton so-and-so!). The crime, whatever it is, should be enough. Heaven knows we have enough laws in this country. But if you pick on the gays, or the blacks, or women, or Mexicans, somehow it is 'worse' because you obviously hate them. What does that have to do with the crime? It is my God-given right to hate whomever I want. If I don't do anything to them, why is it anyone's business? If I do do something to them, then I should be prosecuted on my actions, not my thoughts or feelings towards that group of individuals. But, of course, that doesn't fit into the agenda of thought control that is being (more rapidly) infused into the gov't schools and the drive by media...

That would not be difficult to express. I found most helpful to me was going to my knees thanking my HF for life, for experience, for my family, and then directly asking him to go before my face, to be on my right hand, to be on my left hand, and his spirit in my heart, and his angels round about me to bear me up. --Thomas S. Monson, Feb 4 2008 News conference upon becoming President of the LDS church.

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#17 Guest_jwild_*

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 09:33 PM

It is my God-given right to hate whomever I want.


Boy there sure are a lot of angry white males here! :)


Your missing the point! The main stream media has failed to distinguish the LDS church from the FLDS Church despite our leaders asking them to. So what do we wind up with? Acts of violence perpetrated against LDS members.


So call it what you want!

a hate crime
a war crime
a white collar crime
a crime of passion
or just plain old crime.

anyway you look at it violence is violence, and this time the violence is aimed at us!




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