Vanhin

We have a similar situation. I just try not to worry about it too much, and just let it be a mess. When I am home I take care of the job apparently everyone else in my house hates, the dishes... I try to keep it to myself, but I love doing the dishes, especially when the dishwasher is broke (which it is at the moment). It's just like playing in warm sudsy water, and I get to ponder the deep things of life while doing it. I love it when the counters and the floors are all clean and tidy, ready to be messed up again. Its too fun, but I try to look miserable when I'm doing it.

The commentary was his original work. There is no book that you can buy, but, thekabalist did have a desire to compile a manuscript on his commentary about the Book of Mormon using the stuff he was writing out here. A couple of us were enlisted to help him, and we got started. However, it doesn't appear that this will ever be finished since he's been gone for a while now. I think he has passed away, but I keep hoping that I am wrong. Maybe I should at least finish compiling what we do have out here. I miss Aharon. Vanhin

Paying tithing is so that God can bless you and others. In his great wisdom, God provides both a perfectly just and merciful way for us to receive blessings from him for our benefit. 20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— 21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. (D&C 130:20-21) When we are obedient to God's laws, it enables him to bless us in his great mercy. In the case of tithing, if you will act in faith, and make your tithes and offerings regardless of your circumstances, God will open the "windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." (Malachi 3:10). That's the promise, the rest is up to you. Regards, Vanhin

Good thoughts Vort. Hell is what one experiences as a result of separation from God and his influences. In very real ways, we experience varying degrees of hell already because of our sins here in mortality. In the scriptures it can be said that hell and spiritual death are synonymous, so I think the idea that you are talking about concerning the destruction of our own souls (in the case of sons of perdition) has validity. God's power to save his children is truly great. In fact, the scriptures give us the assurance that spiritual death, or hell, is limited and temporary for even the vilest of unrepentant sinners, who will suffer for their sins and still enter a degree of glory in Heaven. For those, who "deny the Son after the Father has revealed him", however, there will be no such redemption from spiritual death, and it will be a "second death" where they will be cut off from the presence of God forever. 43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. 44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment— 45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows; 46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof; (D&C 76:43-46) It is easy to see how the concept of Heaven and Hell is derived in traditional Christianity when you make perdition the breaking point. But it is actually more complex and comprehensive than that, yet simple at the same time. Exaltation aside, those in the Celestial glory will "dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever" (D&C 76:62). They enjoy no separation from God. In the Terrestrial glory, those who dwell there will not receive the fullness of the Father, but will receive "of the presence of the Son" (D&C 76:77). In the Telestial glory, those who dwell there will only enjoy the ministration of the Holy Spirit (D&C 76:86). I think it is interesting that D&C 76:84 says that those who dwell in the Telestial kingdom "are they who are thrust down to hell". Yet, we know it is still a kingdom of glory. So, just like there are varying degrees of glory in the kingdom of Heaven, it can also be extrapolated that there are then varying degrees of hell, representing varying degrees of separation from God and his influence. So, for me personally the threshold is much higher than the divide between some glory and no glory. The divide between heaven and hell for me is Exaltation and no exaltation. To be forever separated from the Father, and from the blessings of exaltation and eternal matrimony and family would be a "flame" that "ascendeth forever" to me. Regards, Vanhin

My thought on this is the following. There is a distinction when we make certain covenants in the temple between "time and all eternity". Time is in reference to our mortal lives, which is marked by the change and decay of our fallen state. That's what gives us the perception of time. It follows then that eternity is a state different than time, marked by the absence of the change and decay typical of mortality. However, obviously the many generations of time granted, that have come and gone in the worlds without number created by God, are all part of the whole of eternity as well... Excursions, albeit, but part of eternity nonetheless. Reminds me of the second verse in "Abide With Me". Swift to its close ebbs out life's little day; earth's joys grow dim; its glories pass away; change and decay in all around I see; O thou who changest not, abide with me. I'm grateful for the time God has given us to work out our salvation - to repent and prepare to return to His presence. Elder Christofferson's talk last year really struck home for me when he said: "Perhaps as much as praying for mercy, we should pray for time and opportunity to work and strive and overcome." (The Divine Gift of Repentance - Liahona Nov. 2011 - liahona) Regards, Vanhin

Well, I think it's a little bit of both. Like other passages in the Bible, our interpretation is a product of the teachings of modern prophets and revelation. Our belief in kingdoms or degrees of glory associated with the resurrection, and vicarious works for the dead (such as baptism for the dead) are concepts found in the Bible, but it's hard to arrive at our understanding based on those passages alone (see 1 Cor. 15:40-41, 1 Cor. 15:29). The Bible teaches that repentance and the remission of sin is made possible by the shedding of Christ's blood, and his suffering for the sins of the world (1 Jn. 1:7, 1 Pet. 3:18). Though crucifixion is indeed a gruesome way to die, and was the foretold method the Messiah would be slain, it is his suffering for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane and again on the cross, that is most significant. His pain was so great that he bled from every pore, as if he was sweating blood (Luke 22:39-44). He sufferent the burden of our sins, in a manner that only God can endure. Those who will not apply his atonement, by repenting of their sins, will suffer in a like manner. This is where our modern revelation gives us more information. For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink— Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men. (D&C 19:16-19) Regards, Vanhin

I know I am resurrecting a very old thread, but I just wanted to update rameumptom on this. :) Check this book out. Here's the description from Amazon. "Evidence gathered from physical anthropology, archeology, and comparative ethnology clearly indicates that the American Indians are of Asian origin. Since the discovery of America, now more than 500 years ago, various scholars have been searching for linguistic links between the Native American languages and the languages of Eurasia. In this work the author proposes a comprehensive linguistic relationship between the Central California Indian languages and the Uralic language family. The volume contains an essay concerning the discovery of California written for a well-informed public, a great amount of ethnographic material, an extensive comparative grammar and phonology, several vocabularies and a comparative linguistic analysis of a shamanistic text. The author introduces a new word 'Cal-Ugrian'. It stands for California Ugrian. It represents a new concept in comparative culture and linguistics. The author trusts that the reader, after carefully having studied the evidence, will agree that the languages of Native Central Californians are indeed closely related to the Uralic, Finno-Ugrian and specifically the Ugrian languages spoken in Northwest Siberia." Amazon.com: The Discovery of California: a Cal-Ugrian Comparative Study (ISTOR books) (9789630566308): Otto J. Von Sadovszky: Books Finnish is a Finno-Ugric language and apparently so are Central California Indian languages. Pretty interesting. Vanhin

I think I agree with Vort. Even most of the instances when the "Father" appears and speaks, it is actually God the Son, who is quite authorized to speak as the Father, and can be considered "Father" by virtue of His central role in the Plan of Salvation. Indeed, Christ is the Father in every significant way described in scripture, except he is not the Father of our spirits, or his own Father. This reality allowed Amulek to teach the following to Zeezrom: Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father? And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last; (Alma 11:38-39) The following is some really good reading concerning the topic: The Father and the Son - Ensign Apr. 2002 - ensign Regards, Vanhin

cobbettj, The spirits of man have no beginning and will have no end, they are eternal and immortal. "God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all" -Joseph Smith. Here is a nice compilation of ideas from Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith: In April 1844, the Prophet taught: “I have another subject to dwell upon, which is calculated to exalt man. … It is associated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead,—namely, the soul—the mind of man—the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation. I do not believe the doctrine; I know better. Hear it, all ye ends of the world; for God has told me so; and if you don’t believe me, it will not make the truth without effect. … “I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits. … “… I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man—the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house-tops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. “Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement. “The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.” Though it is difficult for us to understand such things in our current temporal state, it helps to bear in mind that birth into this world did not bring us into existence, since we existend before. Likewise, we existed already when we were "born again" at our baptism, as children of Christ. Our relationship with God, that allows us to advance, is a covenant relationship - whatever it means specifically to "bear the souls of men", is still unknown to us (see D&C 132:63). Regards, Vanhin

Angel333, The Spirit World for us is here on earth, all around us (see Chapter 41: The Postmortal Spirit World). Brigham Young taught that the spirits around us can see us but we cannot see them, unless "our eyes are opened" by God (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 279-280). So, it doesn't look like there is much of a choice as far as where we "go" after death. The distictions of "prison" and "paradise" in the Spirit World, are more conditions, or states of our being, rather than distict divisions - one being a state of misery and the other a state of happiness, until the resurrection when we are received into our permanent abode(Alma 40:11-21). Not unlike our conditions right now, the unrepentant experiencing a sample of the misery already, and the righteous experiencing peace and joy dispite their trials (Alma 34:34). Regards, Vanhin

"...and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue— And after they had done this thing, they did murder them in a most cruel manner, torturing their bodies even unto death;" (Moroni 9:9) Mormon is describing the sacred powers of procreation, and the chastity of women, as God sees it, not necessarily as your friends would currently see it. Of course in Moroni 9:9 very gruesome acts are depicted, which are perpetuated against unwilling individuals, but in the case of your friends, their virtue is important to God whether it is important to your friends or not. "For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts." (Jacob 2:28) Though God is pleased in the chastity of men as well, I think he is especially concerned with women who are often the recipients of abuse and exploitation. Regards, Vanhin

Hey Maygraceabound, Though latter-day saints consider the Scriptures, including the Bible, to be the word of God, and are bound to regard them as such, we do not worship the scriptures or any object. God's Word, according to the New Testament, is Jesus Christ, not any particular book (see John 1:1). We accept the revelations of Christ, as they were received in purity, as His words. Christ reveals his words to his servants, the prophets and apostles, and they in turn cause those words to be written down. This enables others to read and ponder the revelations for themselves, and in a process not that different from the prophets, gain a witness for themselves of the truthfulness of the message. Thus prophets and revelation are greater than scripture. If you were to gather up all the Bibles in the world, and pile them up and burn them, God can reveal them again in their entirety through his prophets, as He has always done. And the rest of us can find out the truth of the things we hear or read through the process of revelation, exactly as it has always been done. That's the program. I do have a couple of questions for you. How do you know "God is real" and that "He loves us"? Any book can claim to be the "word" of God. How are you certain that the Bible is in fact God's word? Thanks, Vanhin

Favorite LDS Doctrines: Agency, The Fall of Adam, the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and Exaltation Least-favorite non-LDS Doctrines: The Five Points of Calvinism (Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints)

I think I already answered that. I think if you look over my previous posts (quotes and scripture references) you will see that subject of sons of perdition is covered. They have committed the unpardonable sin... I don't think Laman and Lemuel were qualified to be sons of perdition. But Cain was the first son of perdition on this earth. He actually spoke with God and sinned against a greater knowledge. He was in a position to commit the unpardonable sin and did so by slaying his innocent brother Able. I sense that you are still under the impression that this doctrine means that a child of sealed parents will be exalted no matter what, even if they do not want it. Clearly this doctrine must be in harmony with the rest of the scriptures, and should be viewed from that stand point. In no way can it rob justice, nor can it violate the principles of agency. No doubt. I can't say for certain how it is accomplished, but I believe the doctrine, and I believe that if I am faithful to my covenants, that everyone of my children who want to be exalted will do so. If they don't care too much for exaltation, then they will inhabit a lesser degree of glory, and if they progress to a point of greater knowledge, and commit the unpardonable sin, then they will inhabit outer darkness. The tender mercies of God are truly marvelous. Regards, Vanhin

For LDS the reason for us laboring to bring souls unto Christ, has more to do with priesthood ordinances and covenants than righteous living alone. Even though persuading people to live righteously is an honorable objective, that righteousness alone does not result in Exaltation from an LDS perspective. The grace of God is made manifest in the blessings of gospel ordinances. We seek to bring people before the Lord, that He may covenant with them and their posterity. These covenants are entered into through gospel ordinances performed by duly authorized priesthood holders, who we believe hold the priesthood of Jesus Christ. The ordinances required for salvation include baptism, confirmation, priesthood (for men), and the temple ordinances and sealings. We are so motivated to preach the gospel to others mainly because we believe that this priesthood authority is only found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Without receiving these ordinances and covenants, and being true to them, the good and honorable people of the earth can only be received into one of the other kingdoms of glory (See D&C 76:75). Regards, Vanhin