DB37

That is refreshing to see! However, one doesn't really need to be a great thinker to realize the fallacy of the trinity. As I read the scriptures, I find probably ten scriptures that support the idea of the Godhead for each one scripture that could be interpreted as a Trinity.

What we have to note here is the distinction between Mormon culture and Mormon doctrine. Mormon culture can be the most wonderful thing. But all too often, it can be a horrible, testimony-challenging, patience-trying, completely unpleasant task of perseverance. It is not very often that I feel edified or uplifted by people in my ward. In fact, I'm not sure it's ever happened, in the entire 13 months I've been here. And that is purely because of people latching onto the culture and preaching it as doctrine. For me, personal scripture study and institute are what build my testimony. I know I'll probably get blasted for saying this, but personal study and institute are more faith-promoting for me than General Conference. It's because my mind works in a way where I can't just be told things and be expected to grow from them. I have to study them for myself, and grow in that way. For me, religion is such an internal thing, so I've always struggled with the necessary external part of it required in the LDS church. Such is my burden to bear, I suppose.

So is the Stake President telling your husband not to take what could be a very good opportunity for your family because he is needed as Bishop? There will always be good men and women to fill the callings of the Church. Just as I don't believe there is any one person for someone to marry, I don't believe that there is any one person for a calling. The Lord will find a perfectly suitable replacement, and I don't believe he expects your husband to forfeit his (or your!) family happiness. On one hand, you could look at it and think of it as a mission of sorts, and once the release comes you can move closer to family. On the other hand, given the current economic situation and the fact that this could be "once-in-a-lifetime" or at least hard to come by later, I think that needs to be taken into consideration. Personally, I'm with you in this situation. I agree with the person who said that not being around extended family is negatively impacting the immediate family. I'm in much the same boat--my wife and I are currently living in Florida, while my family is in California and my wife's family is in Utah. I sympathize with you completely with vacations--we are unable to go places for fun if we want to see our family. And if we choose to do something else, we don't see our families. The only thing that keeps me from despairing sometimes is knowing that when my wife finishes her PhD (~2 years?), we MAY move closer to them (depending on where she can get a job as a professor). Now, if he really likes what he is doing right now and likes the area, you DO need to take that into consideration. Your kids (to a lesser extent, as they won't always know what is best for them, but usually only what is COMFORTABLE) should also come into consideration. Families are eternal, after all, so you want to make sure the rest of your family isn't going to resent you for eternity, and also consider the fact that you will be with your extended family in the [very] long run. It is a trial, I know from personal experience. But it will only last a little season. I would not hesitate to make this move because of the calling to Bishop. To me, the real issue is whether or not it's what your husband and children (and extended family) really want. Don't put your happiness before their happiness, but by the same ticket, don't sacrifice your happiness just because they're a little more comfortable with no change. I think your whole family needs to have a serious conversation that takes into consideration all of the issues here. Perhaps the Stake President should be filled in, as well. Once you have studied it out in your individual and collective minds, and come to what you all think is a fitting conclusion, THEN pray and ask if you have come to the right conclusion. I'm always troubled by the people that say you should pray about it without taking the necessary steps. Of course, pray for the presence of mind and strength to come to a good conclusion, but don't put the matter to the Lord until you're all agreed on what you think is the right conclusion.

But to expand on my previous post, I think doctrine is important. How can we do the will of the Savior if we don't know what that will is? However, I think that groups get to hung up on the differences in doctrine and don't concentrate enough on the similarities. The differences ARE important, but the similarities are even more important, in my opinion.

I have found myself feeling largely the same. It seems like so many religious groups these days just want to attack and tear down the others. To me, this extends beyond "Christian" groups, as well. Most religions, as far as I know, indicate some level of personal or divine accountability and showing love for other people. Despite the obvious hypocritical actions of many of these groups who attack other religious folks (not just Christian anti-Mormons, but how about the ongoing conflict between Jews and Muslims, Muslims and Hindus, etc.). To me, I feel like all religious groups need to band together, because the world is quickly being filled with militant atheists who don't believe in anything. If religious groups fight against each other, it only gives atheists, agnostics, etc. more fodder to attack religious groups. ("Religion is just an excuse for conflict..."). I think you're completely right that differences in doctrine are not as important as furthering the similar goals that so many of these groups share. To be completely cliche: can't we all just get along?

Read the New Testament first. Like someone else said the BoM is "Another Testament of Jesus Christ." Learn about Christ's mortal ministry first, then read the other stuff. At the very least, read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and THEN read the BoM.

You're describing the situation my wife and I went through perfectly. I was ready to get married very soon into our relationship. It took her six months to receive her confirmation that it was the right thing. During this time I suffered, I lamented, and I didn't know what to do. The inner turmoil was horrible. I felt exactly like you did--if the answer was going to be "no," then just get on with it so I can pick up the pieces and move on with my life. Then she finally received a "yes," and we just celebrated our first anniversary a few weeks ago. And the great thing is that all of her concerns melted, and now it seems that she--although don't let this be an indication that I am unhappy in any way--enjoys our marriage even more than I do. Give her time, and try not to stress about it too much (I KNOW that it's very hard not to). Be sweet and treat her in a way that would make her want to be married to you--although it sounds like you're already doing that. The six months I had to wait seemed like an eternity at the time, but in retrospect, it was just a little season of trial. Stay strong.

Not at all offended by anything here, except for the person who said her hesitance would be a "shiny red flag." That bothered both of us a little bit. I mean, we're already married. We're waaaaay past the point of looking for red flags.

Wow. This has turned into a marvelous discussion. I'm so grateful to see so many different sides debating this issue with so much civility and respect. The funny thing is that I think some people involved here are getting more vehement about the issue than either myself or my wife have. Some things worth noting: We do currently have the Proclamation and the Living Christ both hanging above our Gospel bookshelf--which is in our room. While we haven't made a final decision yet, things have cooled down significantly (and never really got heated in the first place, for that matter). At this point, we're considering hanging the Proclamation in the front room (it's not a matter of not liking the decor) and her taking it down when her friend comes over. While I disapprove of this--I do view it as giving in to intimidation from this guy--I will respect my wife's wishes if she wants to temporarily remove it and not treat her any differently because of it. Neither let it be said that my wife is spiritually weak. She holds her torch for all to see and doesn't hide her religion. In this case, she feels that by hiding the Proclamation from her friend, she is being a missionary: while this guy will probably never be willing to convert to any form of Christianity, she wants him to have at least one memory of a Christian--and at that, a Mormon--who did not judge him because of her religious beliefs. (Given that most college students are fairly liberal, she is also worried about the other people in the class being offended, particularly one who is a very close friend of the guy in question). My feeling is that she IS judging him by assuming that he will be offended by something like this. I also very much appreciate the person whose wife said that it would probably be more insulting to him if he found out we were hiding something from him for fear of offending him. I do recognize that my wife knows the situation with this individual better than I do, and I will defer to her on whether or not she wants to remove the Proclamation from the wall. Again, I won't approve or understand (at least in an empathetic sense), but I won't let it drive a wedge between us or treat her any differently because of it. The inadvertent reaction that I've had in this situation is that while it has caused a brief conflict between my wife and me, most of my annoyance is directed at her friend. I know him only marginally, but used to think he was a nice guy that I would like to get to know better. Now, I'm not so sure that I want to get to know him. Not only did he unknowingly cause our first fight, but I feel like he's already judged me--even though the conflict/event/whatever-you-want-to-call-it in question has not even taken place! This is what strikes me as so strange about our disagreement--my wife doesn't want her friend to feel like we're judging him, yet I feel that by taking it down we are judging him, as well as trying to avoid his judgment. [On a side note that is only marginally related, this is similar to the way my feelings have evolved about the gay marriage issue. I am from California, but have moved and changed residency and so did not have the opportunity to vote in Prop 8. At the time it was on the ballot, I probably would have voted in favor of gay (civil, of course) marriage. But the gay community's reaction towards and scapegoating of the LDS Church has changed my mind. If it came up today, I would probably vote against gay marriage, or at the very least decline to vote on the issue. How ironic that their protests and slander have not changed one person's mind who was already opposed to gay marriage, yet have turned a number of people who were for gay marriage against it? I know I'm not the only one. At the same time, they brought much publicity to the Church--much negative, to be sure, but the old saying goes "There's no such thing as bad publicity." This is an example of the way things can backfire when groups of people react to things emotionally--they hurt their own cause and help that of their opponent. It also shows that the work will go forward despite persecutions raging, mobs assembling, armies assembling, and calumny defaming.] Thanks again for all your wonderful commentary. I'd love to see this discussion continue. It is brilliant stuff. Just so you know, while my original intention was to simply consider the advice here and not mention this thread to my wife, I thought the conversation going was too valuable to not share with her. So she's followed at least a portion of what has been said here.

I bought a new set of scriptures earlier this year and have found my scripture study greatly enhanced by color-coding. Over a year and a half, I read all of the standard works from cover to cover . But when I just want to finish the scriptures, I don't get as much out of it. So now I'm doing topical studies and color-coding as I choose the topics I want to study. These are the topics I've chosen so far: -Temple scriptures: not ones that just mention the temple, but ones that talk specifically about what goes on--for example, Paul's questioning of why baptisms for the dead are done. Also, direct quotes from the temple definitely get highlighted. -Prophecies: for these, I use three different shades of orange. In the lightest, I highlight prophecies yet to be fulfilled. With the middle, prophecies being fulfilled. And with the darkest, prophecies already fulfilled (I mark the scriptures where these happen if their fulfillment is in the scriptures). By doing light to dark like this, if these states of prophetic fulfillment change, I can adapt. -Atonement scriptures: these are really hard to decide. Do scriptures that mention baptism but not the atonement count? What about repentance and the resurrection? I started with overt ones about the atonement, and maybe as I continue my study others will seem to fit the bill. -Trials, tribulations, adversity, etc. - I highlight all the scriptures I can find about how God will help us overcome trials and adversity. These are all I have done so far, but I'm sure more will come! I'm thinking about doing healings and miracles next.

My wife and I have been married for just over a year, and in the last couple of days we have had our first real fight. I know--we're really lucky. Unfortunately, this fight is about the Family Proclamation, the last thing I thought we'd ever fight about. Anyway, for Christmas my sister sent us two matching, very nice frames with a Family Proclamation in one and a picture from our wedding in the other. Now, it should be said that my wife is the real spiritual fortress in our home. She has been faithful all her life, is a returned missionary, and is just generally a better person than me. I, on the other hand, was inactive for six or seven years, breaking commandments left and right, didn't serve a mission, and still struggle with following some commandments. I try hard and I want to do the right things, but I haven't had the strong spiritual manifestations that my wife has had. I am most definitely in the class of people who are mentioned in D&C (42:7? I'm too lazy to look it up), those who are "given to believe on their words," meaning the ones who know for themselves. Back to the issue at hand: I want to hang up this photo and Family Proc, but my wife is opposed to hanging the Family Proc prominently in our home. She is in a PhD program, and she is taking a film class this semester. Only 6 people are in the class, so in order to make the class more enjoyable/comfortable, they have decided to rotate among classmember's homes to watch the films. One of the members of the class is gay, and my wife has had many conversations about his feelings towards Christians. He feels that Christians are judgmental towards his lifestyle and consequently, he has a very negative view of Christianity. My wife has tried to send the message that Mormons are not like other Christians (which we're not) and that we don't hate gay people (which we don't). So the bottom line is that she doesn't want to hang up the Family Proc in the front room because she feels like it has very anti-gay undercurrents and that it will offend her friend and possibly other people in the class. My feeling is that she is worrying too much about the issue: First of all, we have a right to believe what we believe and hang what we want in our home. Second of all, the Family Proclamation is not an anti-gay or even an overtly political statement. It is a beautiful document about the Spiritual aspects of the family. Third of all, the way she treats people is what is going to send the message about what we believe, and her friend may not even read the document (although she's sure he will). Fourth of all, I'm not sure I want someone in my home who would judge me or my wife for stating our beliefs and not backing down because of intimidation from someone with an opposing viewpoint. Where we left the issue last night is that we can hang it, but when these people come to our home she will simply take it down for a few hours. This honestly bothers me more than not hanging it at all. I was reading the scriptures last night before bed, and I came across this one: Matthew 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. I feel like my darling wife is hiding her candlestick. Should I give in one way or another (hang it and take it down, or simply not hang it at all) or should I stand firm, as the eternal family and the sanctity of the family are the most beautiful part of the Gospel for me. It is what drew me back to the Church, and what ultimately encourages me more than anything else to strive to follow the commandments: I don't want to lose my wife and our future kids. Advice?