alexm8

Yes, but notice who the rich man calls out to... Abraham. Father Abraham has no power over death. Jesus, on the other hand, DOES have power over sin and death. Are you limiting His reach and power? Okay, makes sense about the two judgments, thank you. However, what of those that had no chance for accepting Jesus as the only payment for sin? Why does God judge them at death and send them to Hell for eternal torment when it was God's choice not to grant them the same opportunities you and I have in the first place? Make sense?

The principle reason for baptism is to wash away our sins so that we become clean. When we were baptized we promised to do basically four things: keep the 1) Law of Chastity, 2) Word of Wisdom, 3) Law of Tithing, 4) Sabbath Day Holy. These questions are asked by missionaries to new converts, and by Bishops during temple recommend interviews to see if we are keeping our Baptismal Covenant. Each week when we take the bread and water it is a renewal of our Baptismal Covenant. We recommit ourselves to obeying those four commandments, and in return our baptism is made effectual by washing away our sins again. Through faith and repentance, each week we have the opportunity to be as clean as when we stepped out of the waters of baptism. We are, in effect sinless at that moment (working through repentance). And we can feel the presence of Holy Ghost stronger as he dwells in a clean vessel, which is part of the sacrament blessing. However, this is why when we break these specifically these commandments we are asked to not take the sacrament. If we are not willing to keep our Baptismal Covenant, how can it be effectual by taking the sacrament?

As I've read through these posts I get the feeling that some people like to play Russian Roulette. Sure, you can click that gun a thousand times and not have the bullet go off, but, it only takes once. Sure, Tarot Cards, Ouija Boards, games, and other devices can seem innocuous, but it only takes ONE time for Satan to gain a foothold. Satan is very real and I personally have had experiences similar to Anne. He does have a real power and CAN influence cards, boards, charms, and even fortune cookies. I'm not saying that he DOES in all instances, but to say he cannot at all is rather naive. We are asked to simply avoid things like that can invite evil into our lives. It reminds me of the story of the wagon driver when asked how close he could drive to the edge of a cliff. As some bragged about how close they could, one maintained he tried to stay as far away from the edge as possible. Personally having driven too close to the edge too often, I'm now trying to stay as far away from it as I can...

Well, PC, I believe we agree that there are absolutes (I will refer to as truthes) that exist within the realm of God and religion. I think that we would agree that one MUST accept Christ as their savior for salvation. That is an absolute truth that we must accept. We do not become "ethical instructors" to God by rejecting this principle. We can identify other absolute truthes that exist by logic, reason, and revelation (personal as well as prophetic). One of those truthes that must exist is for God to be fair is to judge everyone based on the same grounds. It's just logical. If He were to arbitrarily judge people based on a lottery, how can you call that fair? Indeed, He already has judged us all, and all are found wanting. So, it only makes sense to grant all the same opportunity for redemption. If you agree that one MUST accept Christ for salvation, then by extension for God to be fair, ALL men MUST have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ. There can be no other way lest we make God a liar and a respecter of persons. In fact, the bible is replete with scripture to this effect. Romans 5:18, John 12:32, 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 4:10, John 5:23, James 1:5, Acts 17:30, John 1:7, and I could go on... I don't use MUST lightly, but I see no other way to match what we know in scripture with logic and reason.

I can understand that coming from a Protestant because it's a failing of the rest Christianity's soteriology to account for all the necessary conditions. Like I said, that is one of the big reasons I am LDS as I have studied all forms of Christianity extensively and is one of the gaping holes that exist there. We believe that all the conditions already exist, it is only for us as His creation to gain an understanding of what those conditions and circumstances are.

Anne, God absolutely cares what ALL of His creation thinks and He sorrows at the nonbeliever's disbelief and rebellion. The LDS version of the atonement is the most complete and most just of any other religion and is one of the big reasons I am LDS. Jesus needed to suffer greater than any other creature so that ALL creation would allow compassion and mercy. Even Satan himself will ultimately call God Just, knowing that Jesus was completely innocent but suffered the punishment of the soul He saves. And the adversary hates knowing that. If God did not need to appease the nonbelievers as well, even those who were saved would question their own salvation. They would ask why God would choose to save them over someone who may have been more righteous and holy, but didn't have the same opportunities they had... That is why all mankind MUST have the same FIRST opportunity to either accept or reject Christ's atonement.

Sure there's a Hell; it's just not a fiery, burning pit portrayed by the rest of Christianity. Hell in LDS theology in an unquenchable regret and guilt of conscience. Hell is an emotional pain of "what could have been" or an anguish of guilt incited by our causing of suffering to others. This emotional agony and torment can be far more hellish than bodily torment in a burning pit. Anything below the Celestial Kingdom is a Heaven/Hell mix that ends with an ultimate Hell called Outer Darkness. Those that cannot abide, or refuse to accept, any portion of the Holy Light will go there. In LDS theology, God is Just. Man will know a full accountability of the choices he/she make based on the opportunity they were given and are judged accordingly. You just put the onus back on MAN, not God. If it is MAN who chooses not to repent after having been given the opportunity to do so, then God can judge their choices fairly which makes Him good. If God chooses to condemn first, taking away Man's opportunity to repent, that makes it God's choice. Since he has the power, but not the will to save them, allowing them to suffer for eternity for something beyond their control, God is then accounted evil. Neither scripture says we have to accept Jesus before we die. But you bring up the point that we are "judged" after we die. Fair enough. There is an initial judgement after death that LDS believes will place a departed spirit in either Spirit Prison or Paradise. NOTE THAT THIS IS NOT THE FINAL JUDGEMENT as recorded in Rev 20:12-14. In the final judgement, the grave will yield up her dead, so it cannot be the same judgement as when we die. (I've wondered why Protestants think we need to go through the same judgement twice anyway. Why be judged, go to hell, get resurrected, be judged, go to hell? What's up with that?). There are several failings with the parable of the beggar. First, and foremost, the parable was given before the bridge of Christ's salvation was placed over the "great gulf" as Jesus' atonement gave him power over hell and the grave. Second, the parable was to the Jews and therefore did not say believe in Christ, but the works of Moses. Third, if those alive weren't willing to follow the law they did have (the opportunity), giving them a second chance wouldn't change anything. There are no second chances in LDS theology, only that everyone gets a FIRST chance.

The most common are Ephriam (European descent), Manassah (Native/Latin American and Polynesia), Judah (Jewish). There have been Patriarchs throughout the world who have testified they have given blessings to Dan, Ashur, Benjamin, Levi (source Joseph of Egypt, Mark E. Petersen's (1981). I've heard since my youth in the 80's that all tribes have been found.

We are gathering the lost tribes, it is a big part of LDS theology. The mistaken part is that we need to gather them to Missouri, not sure where you are getting that from. They live among the peoples of all nations are are being gathered to the Church. They are identified when they receive their Patriarchal Blessing and all 10 tribes have been represented for quite a while. It is not something that is advertised as PBs are rather sacred and meant for the individual, not the world.

Well, I maintain that scripture is not neutral. I'll defend that it is a good tree that bears (inspires) good fruit. You can always have evil point to the tree to convince others that the fruit is bad, but that does not make a good tree bad because they say so.Isaiah 5:20 The grace vs. works confusion comes from a general ignorance of what Salvation is to the other. LDS members have that moment when they "come to Christ", too, it is called "conversion". Mormons do what they do because they are converted to Jesus Christ and His teachings. Protestants do what they do because they are saved by Jesus Christ and His teachings. To Protestants salvation is a destination which is instantly arrived at. To Mormons it is a journey which salvation begins (and assured) at the first step but can be lost if strayed from the path. It's not far a stretch to say that by grace we are saved, and by our works we stay saved. So, in that I am glad we can agree on OSAS, but in your view do you know where the line is specifically drawn where one falls from grace? LDS theology generally agrees that anyone worthy of temple recommend is assured. Those who do not keep their baptismal covenants, that is the 1) Law of Chastity, 2) Word of Wisdom, 3) Law of Tithing, and 4) Keeping the Sabbath Holy, are uncertain of salvation. We have other counsel from Prophets that help us keep these four commandments, but that's it. That is the line drawn for us to avoid falling. It's easy. Our "good works" beyond that are nothing more than laying up our treasures in heaven for the rewards that await us there. Like I said, we are in actuality a LOT closer in theology than at first look. Edit: Wanted to add that I that I agree if we break God's commandments God will chase after us. Guilt and regret is a powerful motivator and He uses those as effectively as he does peace and comfort. I should know, I've had my share of it :-)

We are not awaiting the END of the world, but the CHANGE of the world. The world will change when Christ comes again, not end. The END of the world, as I understand it, will be after the Millenium, the last resurrection, Satan will be loosed for a season, battle of Gog and Magog, etc. etc... I don't think many of us will be around to worry about that much by then. As for change, everything changes. We just need to be ready and prepared for those changes. If ye are prepared, ye shall not fear. (D&C 38:30)

My contention, PC, and I stand by it is that true scripture does not INSPIRE evil. You can justify something evil with scripture, but it is not INSPIRED by it. I do not think that someone can read the Bible and say, "I'm going to start slavery because of what it says," or, "I'm going to be gay because it says here..." Yet, wicked men can use it to justify their already evil ways. I guess we will just have to disagree on this point. We (LDS and Protestant) are actually closer on salvation than many think. The Book of Mormon is full of assurance. "the Lord our God did visit us with assurances that he would deliver us; yea, insomuch that he did speak peace to our souls, and did grant unto us great faith, and did cause us that we should hope for our deliverance in him." (Alma 58:11) "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ" (Moroni 10:32) Where we will disagree is that uncertainty comes from falling away through sin. St. Augustine quoted Paul specifically in 1 Cor. 3:17 and says "Take heed then what thou doest, take heed that thou offend not the Indweller of the temple, lest He forsake thee, and thou fall into ruins. (Sermon 32 on the NT) Protestants have created this Once Saved, Always Saved because they do know know or understand what can cause the Indweller to forsake someone, thus "destroying" their salvation. It is the "rules" (works) that LDS members keep that allows them to KEEP their salvation. And yet it is these works that we are ridiculed for.

Then you have a problem with the infallible Bible contradicting itself, because clearly Cornelius was not a believer in the "true God" having no knowledge of Jesus (John 17:3). He was not even a Jewish Proselyte, being a Roman centurion and not circumcised. He was not saved as he did not have the Holy Spirit yet (not until vs. 44). Yet he feared the God he knew and God accepted him, sending him an angel as evidence of His love. To explain my last paragraph further, for Traveler, too... If we cannot be good without God's guidance then it's God's choice whom He will save, not ours. If it is His choice, the HE alone is accountable for that choice. If God chooses to NOT save someone, when it is within His choice and power to do so, and consign them to eternal Hell, that is an evil God. How can a good God allow someone to suffer eternal torment when, a) it is within his power to save them, and b) when that individual didn't have the choice in the first place? I will agree with you on, "Our conscience doesn't save us if we don't come to the cross of the true God." Were we will disagree is the timeframe that one can come to accept God. No where in the Bible does it state that you must accept him only in this life. This is one of the big reasons I am LDS; it is the belief that everyone will have a FIRST chance to accept Jesus either in this or the next life.

There are many neutral tools, like money for example that can be used for good or evil. However, I cannot accept true scripture to be neutral. Evil can reject the tool (through ridicule, pride, etc) to inspire evil, but I don't believe that scripture itself can inspire evil works. (Lest words of Christ be made specious in Matt 7:17-18.) It is one of the things in my mind that separates The Book of Mormon and Bible from the Koran which can, and does, inspire evil. Same would go for true religion. Following true religion can only inspire greatness. Note that I believe true religion can be found in all religions, even Islam, by following the eternal principles that God writes in all of our hearts (called a conscience). Thus actualizing the scripture that "in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:35) We cannot accept Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace based on this fact. If we cannot be good without God's guidance, then it places the burden of salvation and guilt on His shoulders, not our own. If God so chooses us or not, it's His choice and thus His accountability. So, one has to ask if God chooses against good by allowing someone to be damned for something beyond their choice, how that a can be "good" God?

It sounds like you are mistaking humility for unquestioning devotion. You have, in my honest opinion, given me nothing to test and that is not the way the Holy Spirit works. I already believe the scriptures you posted through the Holy Spirit. Your unreasoned interpretations of them are what is lacking.