ronism99403

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  1. George MacDonald once said that God's justice and mercy are the same. His justice is merciful and His mercy is just.
  2. Reading your post, I got all these warm fuzzy feelings remembering my own process of investigating the Church. Even though I am inactive and disfellowshipped, for now, I still feel like I am stepping into something that is very definitely not of this world when I step into a chapel for sacrament meeting. I still feel power and truth in the Book of Mormon when I read it. I still have a burning conviction that Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet. And I still feel the Spirit's anointing on the General Authorities when I hear them speak.
  3. I asked the question primarily so that I could sample the diverse answers I anticipated receiving. I admit that although I enjoy the LDS concept of a corporeal Heavenly Father ( which makes Him more personal than some nebulous, unknowable spirit), I never could accept the idea that there is someone or something greater than he. Call it a hold-over from my previous protestantism, if you like. Apparently there are Latter Day Saints who believe this as well. But for those who believe otherwise, their Christianity is as viable as the others. This is significant to me because it was not so in my previous Christian paradigm. Believing or not believing certain things scratched you off the list Christian. I enjoy asking these questions in this forum because there is much more tolerance here than elsewhere. I'm sorry, however, that for some my question caused contention.
  4. Being a convert, had the missionaries who gave the discussions to me merely dismissed my many, and sometimes difficult questions, had they tried to redirect me from some of the more odd statements made by a few 19th century apostles, I would have become suspicious. As it were, with one exception, they engaged me honestly, and when they did not know the answer to one of my questions or concerns, they directed me to someone who did. When all was said and done, those things that still troubled me about Mormonism, were not enough reason for me not to get baptized. Today, there are still things that puzzle me about Mormon belief, doctrine, history etc with which I still wrestle. Therefore I ask questions.
  5. Years ago, in a meeting with my pastor, I asked, "If God knows everything, the past, present, and future then Adam partaking of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was certainly no 'oops' moment for God, and since God is all-powerful didn't that mean that God intended for Adam to partake of the fruit?" My pastor's answer was that I endangered my eternal soul with such questions. Such an answer made me a little grumpy. Imagine my delight at having that very question satisfactorily answered by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I've also had some well-meaning folk, in the Church, when I asked a difficult question, ask me in return, "How does that affect your salvation?" Which to me is like receiving a stone when I asked for bread. I prefer an honest answer to an honest question, and am grateful when they come my way. I may not agree with an answer, but it is in asking the question and testing the answers that I grow and learn. So, in my mind, this question has a great deal to do with my eternal salvation.
  6. I asked the question to see how people would answer it. I was curious about what everyday Latter Day Saints may think about the topic. My question wasn't silly, nor do I believe that the honest attempts to answer the question are silly. I am learning something here.
  7. Perhaps I should rephrase the question. Did Heavenly Father become God or has he always been God?
  8. Was Heavenly Father first created a man like Adam by someone greater than himself, and did he need to go through a probationary period to obtain Godhood, or has he always been God with no other greater than he?
  9. The problem, I think, is that modern translations, no matter how well done, are, to some degree or another, interpretive. So, without the "gift of translation", something of the purity of the text would be lost. With that said, I think a modern translation of the BOM for use as a supplement to the original translation would be helpful for those who are not accustomed to a more King Jamesish flavor of English.
  10. "Love is an emotion, and emotions are tricksy and sometimes false. Sometimes relevant, sometimes irrelevant. Love is not a constant, whereas duty is. There's nothing to basic fallable error-prone emotional love that places it higher than anything else. Jails are full of bad guys with mommies who love them and would gladly do anything, legal or illegal, to get their poor helpless babies away from the bad jail people. Divorced people occasionally have bitter lists of the dumb things they chose to do for love." Loud Mouth_Mormon. The love I'm talking about is not emotion. Let's call it Charity (1 Cor 13) or altruism, or "doing it unto the least of these, my brethren." If love is not that important, then the Apostle Paul was wrong in saying of faith, hope, and love, that the first two would pass away, but love would remain. "If we do perfectly love, we will obey all the commandments!" I strongly accept this statement as true. What are we striving for, if not to learn to love perfectly? What did the Apostle Paul mean when he wrote "Perfect love casts out all fear?" And why write it if he didn't expect us to pursue the goal of loving perfectly? Finally, if I tithe only because I want to receive the blessings that come from tithing (in faith, mind you), then my tithe is only a clanging symbol. If I serve only to gain exaltation, then my service is dross.
  11. Thank you Obulus for your fine answer to my query. Your posts have been challenging and thought-provoking. I liked Travelers answer as well--succinct and true, as I see it. Thank you Hemidakota for your encouraging post. It feels like I'm investigating all over again, but this time I get to ask the questions I was too afraid to ask before, and to say what I really think on some issues. I look forward to more of these exchanges.
  12. Perhaps, I'm the one being self-righteous here.
  13. Good answer. As an investigator, the LDS emphasis on exaltation seemed to me,at first, to be different than Jesus' statement that the last shall be first. The missionary's example (his demeanor, the dismissive way he dealt with my questions and concerns) didn't help my misconception much. The answer I gave him to my posed question caught him by surprise because, for him, it was an afterthought, or so it seemed. He angrily claimed afterward that I was basically an anti-Mormon--even though my questions and concerns were brought up only because I truly wanted to know what Mormons believed--and yes, I was testing the spirit behind his faith. I wanted to know if altruism was the foundation for Mormon behavior rather than a desperate grabbing for an exalted state (the desire to rule, that is). After our encounter, I told him to leave my home. He called back later to apologize to me as I, in return, did so to him. But the longer I knew him, the more obvious it was that he could not receive correction from others regarding the things he said and believed. He believed he was much smarter than his companions. His first companion, however, was his opposite in every way, (very Christlike) and that, in part, was why I chose to be baptized. Since my baptism, I met many members who exemplified Jesus' statement that the last shall be first, and I saw, first hand, that many lived lives of service and love to others, apparently understanding that exaltation comes from giving, serving and loving others as Christ had and does. But, I wonder, doesn't the focus on being worthy enough to attain the Highest kingdom breed, in many, a sense of self-righteousness rather than the humility that would come from acknowledging that apart from Christ we can do nothing? That is where my answer comes in. I love Christ for making it possible for me to do good and for me to become good. So if I'm ever exalted, it would all be because of Him. And with that knowledge my paramount reason for doing good would be because I love Christ. Am I too far out in left field on this one?
  14. When I was investigating the Church, there was one missionary I did not like very much because I thought him haughty and arrogant. During one of our discussions, I asked him why he chose to do good. His answer was so that he might gain exaltation, which was the answer I expected from him. I then told him to ask me the same question, which he did, and to which I answered, "Because I love Jesus." This made him very angry with me and he let me have it with both barrels. My problem is that I still cringe when I hear Latter Day Saints talk about trying to gain exaltation. In my mind, it seems to be for selfish reasons that some LDS members follow the commandments rather than doing so because of their love for Christ. What am I getting wrong here? Sincerely, Ron