anan

Members
  • Posts

    17
  • Joined

  • Last visited

anan's Achievements

  1. It's very easy to make arguments regarding specific roles when the other 50% don't even get a oppertunity to speak for themselves, or have power over those making the decisions. "As long as I'm up here and you're down there, what are you complaining about?"
  2. I understand the quotation "never hesitate to follow", but if disagreements about leadership are pointed out that isn't paganism, that is simply people exercising their free agency. This just my opinion.
  3. I never thought of it that way. I just stayed angry at those who offended me, because secretly I wanted karma to pay them back. I even prayed to god to take vengeance on them. I never thought that by not forgiving I was also denying the thing I was supposed to value most. ....Interesring.
  4. Brother or sister, it really doesn't get much more complicated then that. Contrary to popular belief, there aren't that many rungs in the LDS Church. Most ladders seem to be internalized rather then external--however long or complicated is up to the individual.
  5. I was referring to the historical Mormon.
  6. Most LDS will confess they aren’t ‘Mormon’; but rather, they will emphasize that Mormon was a commander, prophet (?), and historian who helped abridge their sacred text. At least that’s what I was taught in priesthood classes years ago. I am a convert. I joined the church at age 8. My parents were mostly inactive. I spent most of my life popping in-and-out of church—attending for a few weeks out of a year (the actives will know what I’m talking about)—until I finally grew drained. I converted because I was told to. After several meeting with the missionaries coming to my parent’s house, I was told to go to the upstairs room and pray. I still distinctly remember the experience with the lights being turned off and the cold, hard wood floor making my knees ache. Nothing happened…but fearing punishment I reported I should join.
  7. If these thoughts make you feel good, or if you have goods feeling after praying about them, then I think you should do it--pending you are in a stable relationship / environment. On another thought, I never see you put anyone else down, or have an compulsive need to correct those that might not agree with you. Or maybe I just haven't caught you yet. You seem soooo...happy. I envy you. You should do what the Lord tells you. I wish you all the happiness in the world.
  8. I would write out the revelation. I have a special notebook that I use from time to time for personal revelations. I also try to jot down other information such as time of day, where I was, and what the circumstances were. I then reexamine the information at least once a day if it's bugging me, and--very rarely--I pray over them so I may understand it better. If anymore information came to me I would write that down as well.
  9. I’m not angry with the responses I’ve received. On the contrary, I’m grateful for what I’ve been given. It’s often hard to walk out of a relationship on good terms, and as such, it’s equally hard to leave any congregation if there are still lingering emotions filled with positive attachment. I thought it was interesting—and also a large mistake on my part—for me to try to convey an event as it happened to me, and then hear back that I was possibly making it up? In a way it almost proves to me that the Holy Ghost doesn’t talk to people, else one would believe. But then someone smart would come along and say that because the Holy Ghost does talk to people they know I’m making it all up. Ugh. I grow tired of wagging the dog on this. My wife wanted to make an account and reply to some of this—to which I said no again. Even if she did chime in someone would say it was actually me. I feel certain that one of the moderators would check the IP, see the messages came from the same address, and I find myself in a paradox. And I even spent a few moments contemplating sending my spouses number to one of the doubters. That person could call her, ask her to recite the events, and verify it to everyone else. Then I thought, “What’s the worst that could happen?” Another pause. “Nope. Sure as hell not doing that.” I don’t need my wife nagging me “it’s time to get ready for church” while I’m trying to Tivo the game. And then there will be tithing, temple trips, sitting in cramped classes with members playing “pass the manual”, service I hate volunteering for, and scripture study…again. And that’s not even half of it. I didn’t even get into throwing out half my movie collection, and while I’m feeding DVD’s into the shredder I might as well give my computer a clean install. Half of my music collection will get deleted. Then when it’s all said and done I’m back to the point where I started. I will be sitting on the couch in my white shirt and black tie wondering why the church makes me hate myself for being human. I understand this is selfish, and I will never deny it. I apologize for the whining, that is another pesky emotion humans sometimes exhibit when they don’t get what they want. If there is an afterlife I expect I will see a lot of complaining. I did attempting to contact my bishop about a year ago and resolve this. What ended up happening was I contacted his secretary who is also the bishop’s little brother. I felt rather humiliated knowing my heart felt messages were being sent to the wrong person, but that isn’t the first time I embarrassed myself nor would it be the last. I was given an appointment that turned into a bargaining session for me to not leave. I’m not very good at making decisions under pressure, and I understand this to be no one’s fault but my own. So I found myself agreeing to stay in the church though in my heart I really wanted to leave. I felt like I was talked into keeping a car though I was still in my 30 day period—some places still do that. I’ve spent the past, oh I’d say year and a half or so, wanting to find a way out. I apologize for asking here, but it was either here or other places. And those sites also recommended me asking an attorney. No, my spouse isn’t sitting in a closet somewhere crying her eyes out. That is very, very untrue. In the end I find myself blaming the church itself. I don’t like the fact that some details, like how to leave the LDS faith, are not open to the public. I wish the church would post the instructions on their homepage—and I did look—so lost members won’t have to petition the public for it. This would also be a good PR moment for the church, and they could so something like a short survey (or an in-depth survey if that person so chooses). I could also imagine this to be a moment for the church to list all of their free services like the gospel app or an addiction recovery page. If I could print off a PDF, mail it in, and get an interview, I wouldn’t have asked here. For some reason I didn’t think of writing my stake president—that was good lookin out. End thought… My wife really did pray to God, and she sincerely believes he really did answer her back. I asked her again to tell me what he said, and she told me he said she “would receive many blessings.” So in part I did lie, in that I didn’t correctly give out all the information. I apologize. Funny though, “blessings” sounds more biblical then “happy” and I don’t know what to do with that. I’m accustomed to people not believing what I say. I do not talk most of the time. I just spend my days doing my job and hating my life for doing it. If I get caught in a lie I think, “Oh well.” Then the one time I tell the truth…like I really told the truth…and no one believes me…why does that make me feel confused? Interesting. I will think on this. I got the information I was looking for, and I’m going to leave it at that. If anyone else wants to debate they will be doing it with each other or alone. I submit. I apologize again for any disturbances I may have caused.
  10. I wanted to thank you, because I need the sarcasm right now. I need those heated emotions to push me in the right direction. It's right on the tip of my tongue, and I almost left the number to my former ward. Even if the residing bishop there confirmed everything I said what would I gain?--probably about the same as if I stayed, which is not much. But if you want to PayPal the 3 bucks I'll take it. I went to the ward clerk's office today. Two older gentleman sitting in there seemed kind of nervous and very disoriented when I asked for the Stake President's address. They kept asking me what I needed the address for, and I replied that I wanted to send an exit letter. I laid one letter on the bishop's desk, but I was too late. The good doctor found his way into surgery for an elderly woman who broke her hip. I grabbed a tithing envelope off the wall next to the old trophy case for correspondence sake and left. Now it seems I'll be sending three letters: one to the bishop, one to the stake president, and one to member records. I'm not sure why but that "authentic" thing keeps bugging me. I wonder why? If I'm lying I stand absolutely nothing to gain; I'll be pushed aside just like everyone else. If I'm telling the truth...well then I still get nothing. I wonder what is the greater of two evils: me making up a tale for people I don't know who could care less, or me blocking someone close to me that thought they had a genuine spiritual experience from Heavenly Father, and I flattened it like I hit it with a 5 pound sledge?... Tell you what, I want to do just that. I want to call me a liar. I want you to say the whole story is a lie. I want you to mock me, and I want to you tell shout out, in bold letters, how bizarre and stupid it is for someone to merely think God would talk to them, least of all, some poor girl making minimum wage. I want you to show how God doesn't talk to anyone, give them messages, tell them things they aren't supposed to know, and the thought of "sealing" is crazy. And when she comes home tomorrow I'm going to turn on the computer and show her what nice people say about her crazy, demented, hallucinations. Please, what ever conscience you're feeling right now, don't let it stop you.
  11. Okay...sweet...answers. So lets see... MarginOfError I mailed my letter to the physical church not knowing where I was really supposed to send it. At that moment I simply looked up the address from Mormon.org, slapped a stamp on the envelope, and dropped it in the post. I was disappointed when it came back a week later with no forwarding address. I have since found the address for the member records in Salt Lake, but nothing has happened yet. I’m seriously considering dropping by tomorrow and hand delivering. On a side not I appreciate your courtesy and honest answer. Too bad we couldn’t have met before all this happened. Oh well... Skippy740 I’m done with questions. When I found out some of the really horrible stuff...my head was just spinning. I thought I was going to vomit. Really, I just can’t. Perhaps I misinterpreted what they meant, but I thought apostasy was to be dealt with by excommunication. I even asked for church court, and I promise you I was going to say what ever it took to make them throw me out. Anyway… Loudmouth_Mormon Lawsuit? Yeah. Funny. But I appreciate it. (Reality time). I did talk to an attorney who said he would send a letter, just a letter, on my behalf asking that they remove my name. However, to his knowledge there were no suits involving the church in my state. Then he proceeded to write down a bunch of zeros on a yellow memo pad, and I passed. I guess I lie to other members because I live in a dump and drive a Nissan pos, limited addition. I had forgotten how much gossip goes on there. Soulsearcher I couldn’t bear sitting on the fence anymore. I tried being a cultural member, but it was killing me inside. I can’t do both. I felt like if I was going to not be a member, then I was going to Not Be A Member. For some reason I could see the strings extending from the church and all the way to my brain. When I missed church I’d feel guilty. When I missed conference I felt guilty. When my wife bought me a coffee maker on Black Friday (she was benign on this) I used it, and I felt guilty. tubaloth No Eowyn To quote, “What if you do get your name removed? What if we send that information to Salt Lake, and they cancel your baptism, and suddenly the world ends tomorrow, and somehow you do meet God...and what if you’re wrong?” The rest of the conversation I’m not going to repeat. Yes, there truly is more, but I do not want to repeat it. MsMagnolia During my active years I watched as spouses sat in empty pews without their husbands, praying year after year that he would change his mind. Lord knows I did not want to put my wife through that. “All I saw in your post was I I I…” You’re right. I am being selfish. She wanted to join, go to the temple, and have more children. I just cannot allow that. There was this story she came home with. You can take this for what ever it’s worth, or say this is a lie too if you want. Anyway...she calls it the “taco story,” because she worked overnights at a grocery store for a while. The isle she was working on was stocking ethnic foods. She’s not a very religious person, but for some reason she decides she’s going to pray while she filling the space for the El Paso crunchy shells above the Pace Picante sauce. So she prays to God asking how she could be happy. Then (from what she says) a voice enters her head saying, “If you want to be happy you have to be sealed to your husband.” But not just any voice, it was like someone was standing right next to her. My alarm clock goes off. I wake up, and get ready for work. I hear the car pull up in the drive, and because we’re horrible broke we have to share it. I’m still half asleep and shoveling a bowel of corn flakes. The door flings open and there she is, all excited like she just won a million dollars but no idea how to spend it. I asked her what happened at work and she repeats the whole incident verbatim. Pause…”What?!” “God talked to me, and he said I have to be sealed.” “No.” “Yes.” “Remember last week when you said a box fell off the isle…” “It hit me on the shoulder.” “Was there someone on the other isle?” To which she replied with, “That was the first place I looked.” I’m thinking to myself, omg ygtbfkm. In all the years I’ve gone that has never happened to me. Not even remotely. “What do you think it means?” “Probably nothing.” I lied. I knew what she was talking about. “Maybe you should go to bed.” And forget the whole thing ever happened. I went to work and threw boxes for the next ten hours because I didn’t go to college. When I arrived home, sore and exhausted, I told her what I thought her experience meant and who to talk to. The only problem is that dreams, and hallucinations, mean different things to different people. I should have realized this at the start. We visited the sisters later that week. To my surprise they rewarded her with tears and hugs for an illusion I wished to god would just go away. The rest of the story you already know. I’m out. And now that I’m armed with knew knowledge, I’m really out. Printing third letter...right...now….
  12. I have been thinking about this for a long time. During this time I have talked to other people about my situation and what I should do, but I have received very few answers. I am at the point to where I am petitioning this question to the net so maybe I could get more ideas. *This is long. I apologize.* This all started in July of last year. My spouse was at work and somehow go this idea that if she truly wanted to be happy she needed to be sealed to her husband—but she had no idea what this meant. I’ve been counted as a member most of my life; however, I haven’t attended church for most of the years I have been a member. It would be safe to assume that I know very little regarding LDS doctrine. So I erroneously thought that my spouse was referring to the church I was a member of—at least on paper. We went to sacrament the following weekend and found the sister missionaries sitting the back row...where I usually try to hide. After a short chat I asked them for their number and left after the service without participating in any of the other classes. Later that day we called the missionaries, and scheduled a meeting with them at the church. Our house is very old and we didn’t want to have company over. In fact, I haven’t invited any friends over since I’ve bought this place. The talks continued for about a month, and each week my wife asked me questions I didn’t have the answers to. On Sunday we would be sitting in the pews listening to the talks and when the speaker said something she didn’t agree with my wife would give me this look like that person was totally crazy. I responded by shrugging my shoulders and opening the gospel application in my iPhone. During those weeks I also began checking church doctrine on the internet, and to my disappointment I found many things that were very surprising. In this strange twist of events my wife was learning about how to get into the church while I was finding reasons to leave. Anyway, the time came and my spouse accepted the invitation on a Saturday to be baptized. When I drove to the parking lot I noticed a lot of cars, and I thought that perhaps some of the members were participating in another event. To my surprise they were all there for the baptism. They created a service out of a single event and no one even bothered to call us ahead of time! We went inside, my wife changed clothes, and then she was asked to sit in the chapel while the congregation sang songs and gave a prayer. Mind you I’m stewing in the pew thinking why didn’t anyone have the decency to call ahead and say, “We thought you’d like to know a few hundred of our closest friends.” When I was baptized I watched the people walk away before I could step out of the pool. It isn’t that I was envious, it’s just that I thought these people were being very...I don’t know...imposing. After the prayer my spouse was escorted to the font, and from nowhere some middle-aged woman began asking me a dozen questions like I was in a job interview. I was asked, “Where do you live?” “In town,” I replied tersely. “How long have you lived there?” “A few years.” “Where do you work?” “In town.” “Where does your wife work?” “She also works in town.” “Do you have any children?” “No.” I lied, but it was none of her business. “Are you a member?” “Yes.” “Oh, for how long?” Quick answer. “I’m new.” “When did were you baptized?” Now I need another lie. “Last year.” “Where at?” “I don’t remember.” “Well welcome to our ward.” The woman attempted to shake my hand, and I walk away. It was in that conversation that I realized that I really wasn’t a member of the church. I have been bottling feelings of hatred and resentment until it’s tarry enough to use on my roof. And I had been doing this for years. I have no idea why I went along with the missionary talks, but I wish I didn't. God how I wish I didn’t. We were in the chapel—again—as I sat sleepy-eyed through more testimonies. At this point I very much didn’t want to be there. The service was over. Finally. I grabbed my spouse and marched down the hall at a frantic pace. One of the sister missionaries stopped us and asked us if we wanted peach cobbler, which I refused flatly. We got into the car, rolled down the window for my claustrophobia, and sped out of the parking lot with the tires squealing. The rest of the ride was very somber. I told my wife that I didn’t believe in the church anymore and most of what they taught wasn’t entire accurate with biblical scripture—or at least that’s how I interpret it. Every person is allowed to have their own opinion on what they feel the church does or does not do for them. We arrived home. I turned on the computer and verified all the information I had been spilling for the past 20 minutes. My spouse then called the sister missionaries and told them to not send her records. I could hear the person on the other end of the phone shouting, “What changed?!” I wanted to reply, “I changed. That’s what changed. It was me.” I spend the rest of the night composing a letter to my bishop regarding my resignation. Several sites were filled with exit letter templates, but I chose to form my own. I received a call a few days later—probably because we failed to show up for the conformation—and was asked to attend an interview. I sat in the bishops office going over the issues I had only to be met with, “I’ll do what you want, but I want you to understand the consequences of your actions.” God...Fine...You win. You people always win. I mean, as long as you're making veiled threats why don’t you include my life, my money, and my family while you're at it. “Sure.” I finally replied after a long pause. “I don’t see what good it will do.” During that interview I also made several promises I never intended on keeping like attending elders quorum and reading my scriptures. I went to sacrament twice out of guilt, and I haven’t so much as cracked my scriptures. Time went on and now I’m contemplating leaving again. This time, however, a new bishop has taken over, and I know from personal experience that he’s a little hard nosed. I sent out another letter, but it was returned with no forwarding address. I don’t want to talk to this guy, and I’m not going to make another mistake like talking to the missionaries. I just want this to be over. I haven’t been an active member since 2006, and even then the only major accomplishment I did was baptism for the dead. How lame is that? I could only do what the twelve year olds are expected to do. Most of my weekends are occupied with so many other things I don’t have time to go anymore. I have moved on spiritually in an entirely different direction. So my question is how do I persuade my bishop to hurry with my excommunication? I’ve asked for this several times, and I feel like I’m met with resistance. I know I did have one opportunity to leave and I totally blew it. How can I find out of the church made my spouse into a member? The last bishop I talked to said she wasn’t a member because she wasn’t confirmed. However, I know how the secretary can be and I feel certain that a record of her baptism is sitting in Salt Lake somewhere among millions of other members who are currently not going. If my spouse isn’t a member, how can we get the baptism removed or at least canceled. And how do I find this information? During the interview I my bishop said he wanted to have my spouse confirmed. I said that I didn’t mind, but did he want her exit letter now or mailed?— to which he suddenly changed the subject and ignored me. I do apologize for this being so long. I do not consider myself as anti-LDS, and I'm just trying to find where I belong. That being said, I would appreciate any suggestions from other members who have handled this process and know their way around the system.
  13. I don't believe it is relevant in this lifetime for members to know such information. Even while reading this 26-page melodrama I had to keep 2 liter of diet coke next to me to keep myself awake. Believe me this was no page-turner. I understood the question perfectly; I just hate answering this one among nonmembers. The problem here is the lack of accountability. I don't know who are active, sincere, full time members, who are new members, who are inactive members, and the folks who aren't interested at all or are apologists from other sites that misinterpret, construe, pull apart, and basically just want to put the church down. I liked this thread as it did cause me to reread the gospels in a hurry. Over all this has been a good experience. I can't answer for the group as a whole. I do know that the Lords marriage at this point is not considered "doctrine." For me, and me alone, I do not like talking about this among nonmembers because I feel it's distracting from the overall message from the Church. In the short time searching for what I hoped was a conclusive answer, I found this. I Have a Question - Ensign June 1997 - ensign (I apologize for not knowing how to make all the neat html tags.) The part I'd like to quote is, ""God has revealed everything necessary for our salvation,” said Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. “We should teach and dwell on the things that have been revealed and avoid delving into so-called mysteries."" For me, speaking for myself again, I feel uncomfortable answering a question that an apostle hasn't answered. I know there are other refuting answers, someone can find where an apostle said Jesus was married, then we can say, "Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine", we add more gasoline to the fire, and the whole argument starts again. I would implore to our brethren that if they have such knowledge to please treat it with respect and dignity as God has blessed them for seeking it out. To those wanting to know I will say, "The Church has no official declaration on the matter." I believe there are so many, many other important things to learn from our Lord and Savior that contemplating on whether or not He was married is like hammering that extra nail into a board, it only makes the wood weaker. I would rather see pages and pages of members spreading testimony, service, what they did on family home evening, or how they home taught someone who really needed to hear the truth. But to answer your question, to those not ready for the information might view it as anthropomorphizing the Savior, give him flaws, or give rational to someone wanting to sin. It may also imply that God has faults and therefore sins. Both ideas are reprehensible and I agree. The Father and the Son are blameless. Also, if God was ready to impart with such knowledge among mankind then He would do so, and the statement would be made clear without ambiguity. Lastly, in the History of the Church 3:30, the Prophet said, "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it." So from the Prophets point of view it is more important that the Lord lived, died, was buried, rose again on the third day, and ascended into heaven. If the Lord was married it is an appendage, and to most it is meat before milk. The Saints are not instructed to spread this unconfirmed revelation. The revelation thereof was omitted by the Father, and not accidently. This is only my opinion; others may choose to believe as they wish.
  14. Modern revelation is one thing, and making up doctrine is something else. My point from a different angle could be, "If Jesus was married while here on earth where can we reference it from?" If the answer is "no where" then I believe the answer is Jesus was not married. I could also say Jesus rode around the country side on a 56 panhead, because that's not mentioned in the bible either. Could our Lord be married after his Resurrection?--Maybe. I dont' see why not. But the question of was he married while on earth leads into other compromising situations that might be even more uncomfortable such as was he a polygamists, why didn't he ever mention his wife/ wives, and did he also practice polyandry? I personally don't think that Jesus wasn't married because that wasn't his mission here on Earth. Jesus is perfect, he is our Savior, and he is the only reason why anyone can inherit the kingdom. I also tend to believe somehow it would be yet another charge (I'm not implying I would know how) added to him during his trial. To add the OP's question I can think of another category which is,3. It isn't validated yet by somone with the proper priesthood authority. so let us leave it at that....