KingDavid

Submitting ourselves to others must involve a delicate balance. Nobody, not even children, like to be in submission to another or others if they feel they lose control of themselves, and/or essentially feel like they are giving up their agency. The other night, my wife and youngest child of nine just saw a marvelous LDS movie at a movie theatre called, "Ephraim's Rescue". It was a much abbreviated story of Ephraim Hanks. In one series of scenes, Ephraim is at a dance at the Social Hall. President Brigham Young is in attendance. Many men, including young men, sported beards (as even President Young did in the movie). Brigham motions Ephraim to come over to him, which he does. BY tells him to go home and shave his beard. Which Hanks does. But, he doesn't shave his mustache. After returning to the dance, BY motions Ephraim Hanks over again. Tells him to go home and finish the job (meaning to shave off the mustache too). Now this was a century before the clean shaven look became considered to be somewhat mandatory among male members of the Church. However, Hanks complies. When he returns the 2nd time, BY tells those men by him that he (Ephraim Hanks) is one who will obey willingly and completely. Last night, we were trying to put a movie on using our computer. My youngest child, a daughter, was doing it. I told her to do something one way, and she didn't do it. So, she ended up with screen messages that were there before, that seemed to present an impasse. I then instructed her again to do what I had previously told her to do (the tone was not condemnatory, but merely and simply instructive). This time she did. And, following my directions, she successfully got the movie going. I THEN asked her if what I told her to do worked. "Yes", she acknowledging replied. "You see," I taught her, "I knew what I was talking about." I am, unlike God, NOT omniscient. I don't know everything. And I readily (and often) admit it. However, even if I am not 100% certain something will forcibly always work, I am right by far most of the time. But, I often find, my wife, who is several years my junior, though we've been married for a third of a century now, more often that not, will not "hearken unto" me, in following what I suggest or recommend she do, in such matters. And, more often than not, she has to go back and do it the way I told her to initially. Pride, even stiffneckedness, can get in the way of much progress. In a number of matters regarding our children, unfortunately, my wife often supposes she knows better, and ignores my advice, even my wishes. I do not force her to follow me. But there is a flip side to the subject of not "hearkening" (part of, if you will, "submitting" that we really hardly ever discuss (we discuss abuse of those "in authority", but not so much, on the flip side, what is oft called in the scriptures "rebellion". You see, one need not totally ignore or fail to follow what another tells or asks a person in authority to "rebel". Sometimes, it need be only one time in one thing. (Consider, to be sure, a somewhat extreme example, "Lot's wife"). However, when we read of those example that are given to us of absolute obedience, and the absolute faith it portrayed and conveyed, we read of the "...sons of Helaman" who followed every word (in battle, and probably out of battle, too) "...with exactness...". And none of them perished, because of their incredible faith, as manifested by their incredible obedience to fallible leaders. I don't think this was any one-time happenstance thing. I believe that they followed their appointed military leaders out of habit. And they developed this habit at home. And, I would bet "dollars to donuts" that they followed the example of mothers hearkening to the voices of their fathers (also) with exactness. Our current bishop, who was previously our bishop around two decades ago, back then, would say that it doesn't really matter how the tithing funds we give (willingly) to the Church are spent. He said, they could be (ultimately) "be thrown in the Great Salt Lake", if such were done. Still, he reminded us, the Lord would bless us for being obedient both to him and the the recommendation of our appointed leaders in keeping this principle. Yes, those in authority should not force their will on those who should submit themselves willingly to them. But, what happens when those who are commended to— And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things; being diligent in keeping the commandments of God at all times... (Book of Mormon | Alma 7:23) When they don't, there are consequences. Not necessarily at all from the person who asked, and should have been hearkened to. But to everyone, in a way. Especially those in a relationship, and familial relationships are perhaps paramount— 20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— 21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 130:20 - 21) This pertains as much to this as it does to anything.

PastorBob, The quote I gave is from the Book of Mormon. Are you calling that book of scripture a "ritual", or are you referring to something else?

Apparently not much goes on here. Nothing added since April 2009! Pastor Bob, the "spirituallizing" of the Bible (i.e., converting much or all of what was meant to be understood literally) is as old as the house of Israel. Jacob (younger brother of Nephi) pointed this out— 13 Behold, my brethren, he that prophesieth, let him prophesy to the understanding of men; for the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be; wherefore, these things are manifested unto us plainly, for the salvation of our souls. But behold, we are not witnesses alone in these things; for God also spake them unto prophets of old. 14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by LOOKING BEYOND THE MARK, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble. 15 And now I, Jacob, am led on by the Spirit unto prophesying; for I perceive by the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that by the stumbling of the Jews they will reject the stone upon which they might build and have safe foundation. (Book of Mormon | Jacob 4:13 - 15) Jesus, himself, also pointed out how "the Jews" (i.e., the house of Israel) had (as you do) disbelieved the scriptures (supposing them to be either less than they are or something different from what they are)— Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken (New Testament | Luke 24:25)

ztodd, I said (or meant) that, IF all she said was true, and there were no other mitigating circumstances or unstated pertinent facts, it appeared that that (excommunication) would be appropriate. That judgement is always left to priesthood leaders (biship's courts or high council courts). I've known cases where spouses sinned, and there was no apparent remorse for their sin. I have seen other cases where there was apparent remorse. If someone has sinned grevously (adultery is grievous) and feels or acts as if they feel no compunction for their sin, divorce seems, to me, as the only way (if there is any way) to "wake" such an individual up to reality. Their "forgiving" is a different matter from necessarily putting up with a spouse's cheating. I don't mean to offend you, but you sound as if this is a personal matter of your own. I hope not. But I couldn't stand by and see someone I cared about especially, almost act indifferent to such wrong behavior by a spouse. You talk of forgiveness so glibly and easily as if one just "does it" and its over. And that spousal cheating just comes with being married. That's the kind of "winking" at behavior that is tied to many in Catholicism and also to the Victorian age in many respects. It's the kind of "boys will be boys" laid-back attitude where infidelity isn't only minimized, it is even expected and full anticipated. In regards to the adulteress that the men wanted to stone, I believe that Jesus knew that she was sorry for what she did and wanted to repent. I can't believe that Jesus would "wink" at a person who was more of a harlot in attitude (ready to "do it" again), but one, rather, who not only to preserve her life, but to change it, was sorry. If my wife cheated on me, I wouldn't take it in any sort of a "ho-hum", shrug the shoulders way. If it went the other way (and I cheated on her), I would not expect her to take it mildly or matter-of-factly. Your recommended response, however, to me, appears to call for just such a response. I've seen what infidelity has done to friends and relatives. I've seen people be emotionally crushed by it. And one reads, often enough, where one or the other resort to murder or suicide due to it. I've seen many of these same friends and relatives who did forgive. A few appeared to have truly repented. The vast majority, sooner or later, went back to their wayward ways. If a spouse is remorseful and willing to repent, I would recommend working with them and trying to forgive them. But if the sinner is unrepentant, though I may forgive them later, that does not mean one is obligated, nor even that it would be prudent, to remain married to them. You say "He knows he needs to fully repent..." - Are you her spouse? Nothing in what she said even hints at your assumption. Ultimately, it is the Lord's job. But, haven't you read where the Savior pointed out that the saints will (even) judge angels? They will, ultimately, judge all the people of the earth. "Passing judgement" is something that must be done in life. Priesthood leaders are responsible for what they do (or don't do) in "passing judgement" on church members in regards to their standing in the Church. In matters regarding remaining married in the case of infidelity, one must "pass judgement" on one's spouse. This is NOT merely spilled milk. Nor is it just "water under the bridge". Nor just a "check that one off the experience" type of a thing. We're talking about the most fundamental and important relationships, and how one should handle them. If it were my daughter, or my niece, or my sister, I would give the same advice I've given. If you gave such advice as you are advocating here, I would be surprised and perhaps even ashamed were you my brother telling family members what you appear to be saying. I hope I am merely misunderstanding what you are advocating. But I fear that I am not. We are all ABLE to change. That is not the issue. It is whether or not this woman's husband is WILLING (even WANTING) to change. I too try to give all others the "benefit of the doubt". But, lets not be naive and stupid. There are many cases where sinners in these situations are and remain totally unrepentant. They are more sorry for being caught doing wrong than for doing wrong.

(Continued) But if I was 20-something again, and looking for a wife, I would not avoid a woman pursuing a college or advanced degree, per se. But she better be one to show me that she's willing and ready to drop all of that at a moment's notice to do something that is VASTLY FAR, FAR MORE IMPORTANT!!! And that is to start a truly ETERNAL FAMILY. Godhood and Kolob don't begin when we die. It starts in the House of the Lord at the altar. Of course, preparations to get two individuals ready for that begin before birth! But if I expect to receive the blessings that Abraham received, I better be ready to do the works of Abraham. And again, I think that there is some equivalent between having one baby at age 90 and 100 (Sarah & Abraham respectively), and having 9 children (or as many as the Lord will bless a couple with) at 20, 30 & 40-something. If you are smart, and want to learn, even want to do work. Great! But I sure hope that if you want to be my daughter-in-law, you can and will want to do that work mostly at home, with my grandchildren in your home, your arms, and in your heart! I'll have my grandchildren over, even watch them for their parents now and then. But neither I, nor their grandmother, nor someone else should raise my grandchildren for my children and their spouses. They MUST do that themselves. And THAT work, dear young sister, is FAR more important than ANYTHING you could or would do or want to do outside of the home. Cassandra, you appear to be a beautiful and bright future bride for some fortunate and faithful fellow. Gee, I'd even like to line you up with my 27-year old son, if you'd let me. But I'd hope that home is where YOUR heart is—for I have found that, truly, where your heart is, there is your treasure also. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think that bright girls scare guys away as much as girls who are disinterested in having children, staying home with them, and raising them to be as smart and as faithful as their fathers and mothers are! My mother was brilliant, but also humble. And while my father got a 4-year degree in Mining Engineering, my mother never stepped in a college classroom. And yet, this son, who "modestly" claims and feigns to be the brightest of his parents eight children, was taught priceless and precious things by a mother who was an avaricious reader. And much of what she taught was not just what she learned by reading, but what she learned and knew by observing, pondering and praying. All of what President Hinckley would tell us about "get all the education you can" needs to be viewed in the context of God's commandments. God knows better than even President Hinckley what will make us happy. And the eternal cycle of getting married and having children is key to ALL that we discuss in the gospel. We will receive according to our desires, either to our eternal exaltation, or to a devilish damnation. Money and honors one cannot take with them. Knowledge, we can. But also, when men are learned, they think they are wise, and they hearken not to the counsels of God, supposing that they know of themselves. But to be learned is good, if one hearkens to the counsels of God!

When I married at age 26 (which then I thought was "old", but wasn't, necessarily), I knew I had done my homework. I had dated as much as time and opportunity permitted. I was no Cassanova. But I got out and tried to find the woman of my dreams. And, while I was looking for her, I dated a number of girls who told me they wanted to go on missions. The woman I married told me she wanted to do that too (her mother did). But I could tell that, given the right opportunity, she might be persuaded otherwise. Again, I go back to what I said about being rewarded according to our desires. One of my nephews married a couple of years ago at age 29 or 30. He got his bachelor's in Mechanical Engineering at the "U". Then got his Master's in Mechanical Engineering and MBA at the "Y". He dated some during the many years after his mission through all of that university work. He's a nice, fun-loving man, who is smart, considerate, and thoughtful. He dated some girls he was quite interested in. But he sooner or later gave up on them, because they were "career girls". They wanted to be a business executive, or nurse, or whatever, more than they wanted to be a plain jane ordinary vanilla "mom". And, besides going for a "sexy wildcat", like I got in my wife, I too was looking for a girl who wanted to have children. Not just a couple. But, Lord willing, perhaps even up to a dozen or so. (We got to 9, and that seems pretty good). And, it wasn't just "volume" I was going for. Numbers are easy to come up with. Actually doing it, is the hard part. But, like I told the judge, its "no contest"! But, I valued parents and great-grandparents who went the "distance" for me. And, I figured, we'd become better parents with more practice (which, if one truly tries, is true). And, part of the "valiant in the testimony of Jesus" I/we figured came with keeping the commandments—including the first, which is to multiply and replenish (fill) the earth. It also expresses in lifestyle and service the commandment to "love thy neighbor as thyself". With around an estimated 50,000,000 early terminations of pregnancies in the U.S. since Roe v Wade in 1974, "thy neighbor" might be nearer than most people suppose. And, we figured, kicking them out prematurely after they are conceived isn't the only "un-neighborly" behavior the God who prefers to be called a father sees. Not "suffering the little children to come unto (us)" is one of the sins I think we practice almost as much in the Church as those do outside of it. Whether its the pill, the patch, or the procedure (take your pick-- tubal ligation or vasectomy), the ill-will, and selfish centeredness, and the "wisdom of the world" will sooner or later be shown to be foolishness. And, whether its keeping the career one has been trained for, or being a part-time parent, as we pay off student loans we acquired while "get(ting) all the school (we) can get" necessitates it, the final effect and result are so often the same. "What do you want to be when you 'grow up'?" is a question asked often of every school girl. I've taught my seven daughters to think, and truly want, and to say, "I want to be a mother in Zion, thank you!" And to pursue that first, foremost, and forever! Satan likes to make the whole thing an either/or proposition. That is why 'Survivor' and all of the so-called "reality" shows are so popular. They convey the Corihor/Shiz scenario. If I win, you lose. If you win, I lose. But that is NOT "reality", in an eternal sense–only if you subscribe to demonic decision-making. Pharaoh figured it was "us" or "them" when he commanded the children of Israel to be killed. That Satan-inspired idea was given to the King of Egypt to try to rid the world of a baby—Moses. In the Book of Jasher, an apocryphal work, it tells how signs appeared in the heavens on the night of Abram's (later to be Abraham) birht. The astrologers knew what they meant. They knew that it portended well for Terah's son. They told King Nimrod. And Nimrod, inspired by the same spirit Pharoah would be centuries later, tried to get Abram killed. Terah brought him the child of a maid servant to make him (Nimrod) think he had killed his own son. The book of Abraham tells us that Terah later did indeed conspire with a pagan priest to try to take Abram's life again. The Lord's angel forestalled that sacrifice. Herod, the 'not so' Great, was also inspired from below, rather than from above, when he killed the hundreds or thousands trying to "get" Jesus. Flight into Egypt eluded that evil design on an important baby's life. But which baby ISN'T important? Which baby ISN'T wanted? Anything Satan can do to reduce or eliminate babies fits into his plan most fiendishly. If he can get women, even and especially "good" LDS ones to pursue a career more than a husband, and hence a family, he will. While these good sisters meet Maslow's hierarchy of needs, they sacrifice forever families for telestial treasures. And they accomplish the same end result that Satan seeks, without him having to turn to tyrants or terrors. If he can get couples to marry later rather than sooner (in their later 20's, 30's or 40's) rather than (generally) in their early 20's, they'll likely have fewer children. If he can get them to stop earlier than they need to, so as to not be burdened with children too much into their forties, great (for Satan and self-'Saints')! Subcontract the "train up a child in the way he should go" part to daycares and preschools, as well as leaving children at home, alone, after school, because both parents are serving mammon rather than raising the heritage of the Lord (which children are), and many will get lost to drink, drugs, immorality and even worse. In the last few years, I've witnessed close friends and neighbors where the mother worked outside of the home most of the years they had children in the home, where two of their four children were lost to suicide. I remember the mother saying years ago, "I can't wait until they are out of the home." She viewed them and they felt and knew it, as more of a bother than a blessing. More as a hindrance than a help. Such losses are so difficult to retrieve! Life is hard enough, with trying to persuade a potential spouse what is, and what is not important. If its a career and cash and kudos she seems to be after, I'm after someone else. And, true as you said, it is or can be something that scares or chases boys away. I can't have babies. Only women can. If they can have babies AND provide for themselves, what do they need me for? As a sperm donor? That's how some women now view it. Are you preparing for IF you get divorced or WHEN you get divorced, by all the schooling and all the career preparation? If you self-actualize, then how can two be one? If you are self-sufficient, I won't go toward you, because then you are implying that I'm deficient. I've seen and felt and known male bashing since the early seventies (and before)! And I see even more subtle forms of diminishing the role of fathers in families. Do I make a difference in my family as more than just a sperm donor? Do I do more than merely put food on the table and a roof overhead? You bet. I teach and prepare my children best I can for life after leaving home. I teach them the scriptures, and from the scriptures, and we read the scriptures as a family every Sunday evening. It took us 4-1/2 years, but we got through the Bible on December 20, 2007. We reading the Pearl of Great Price, and are going through the wonderful Book of Abraham now. Once we finish that, we reading the Book of Mormon again (it will be close to five years since we did so AS A WHOLE FAMILY). Some of us have read it otherwise since then. Any and all of my children know the scriptures and understand them better than most anyone I know. (see next post for the rest)

Moi non plus! Mais je l'aime quand meme!

I didn't say that you were. And where choices of spouses, especially good, active, testimony having/keeping/building Church members, on-line stuff can be a boon. However, you have to understand that I see a lot of people doing or trying to do stuff on-line that can be done both more effectively and more efficiently in many, if not most, cases, in person. I object to attempts of finding love on-line when opportunities for doing so in person are more available. Trust me, I've heard how hard it is to do things now as they were done for me in the 1970's as a teenager and young adult. But trust me, again, I know a lot of what the differences between now and then are, and they are not that significant. I've come to appreciate that the difference between things in my parents' generation and mine are no where near as great as they are in my imagination. In reality, they weren't that different, per se. Likewise between my generation and my grandparents'. With much more media, that causes more "noise". E-mail and chat rooms can offer more opportunities, as well as texting, messenger programs, etc. However, the one or few dimensions of media connections between individuals and in-person interaction are HUGE! So much more CAN happen in closer physical proximity, in communicating many things that don't work as well in what words in print can convey. That said, I certainly appreciate the written word. I've done a lot in the past decade on-line. My writing or expressions skills have increased immensely. And I can do better in many ways in print than I can in person. I can often revise before I send. Writing is a most wondrous thing. Again, that said, doing things with others in person has tremendous advantages in so many respects, it could take me a book to explain them. There are a thousand nuances that you can ascertain in-person that are impossible on-line. These nuances offer clues to all parties about all other parties as to the "what" of each other. And the "whats" add up to the "who" we choose to marry, eventually. I am not "dissing" on-line stuff in the least. But, if you knew what I have seen, where a son has spent so much of the time since his mission on line, in front of either a cathode ray tube or an lcd screen, instead of being in front of others, to see them, for them to see him, for both to interact in real time AND IN REAL SPACE! The last is something online interactions will really NEVER allow. On-line interactions HAVE THEIR PLACE. But they, ultimately, canNOT and should NOT take the place of face-to-face, you're here and I'm here type of getting to know one another. Its much like reading the scriptures. They're great. They're terrific! But, to "gaze into heaven for five minutes", one can learn so much in a "face-to-face" with God or angels, as to make decades reading scriptures insignificant. So it is with checking others out, and having them check you out, AND DEVELOPING the ability to interact IN REAL TIME and in REAL SPACE with others of the opposite sex. MUCH OF THAT FOR MANY is MUCH NEEDED!!!

Agreed. But as one who was addicted to TV as a child, sometimes one needs intervention. Life intervened for me, by-and-large. Necessity is sometimes the mother of self-discipline. As I understand Bill Marriott has pointed out, one can't really set goals for results or dictate results. We can only manage activities. But activities (and/or the lack of them) lead (or don't) to certain results. I'm happy that Elgama met an apparently perfect match for her in a spouse on-line. I think, though, most of us need to develop relationships in-person. And, NateHowe, I haven't said that computers or video games or TV themselves are evil. But, if I wanted to get young men and women to do what they should, I would find a way to incapacitate them (computers, TVs, video games, & yes, also, cell phones). That leads me to what I think may be a prophecy regarding an EMP caused by a nuclear attack. That will not only get young men & women off-line, it will get them searching for food (if not love) together (I suppose). The fulfillment could happen anytime. But I kinduv think within the next five to ten years is most likely.

Am I suppose that you two met on-line? My son just returned yesterday from dating a girl at BYU-Idaho he met on YouTube. It didn't work out as he wanted! C'est la vie, parfois! I am not suggesting one necessarily leave their computer completely! Just enough to socialize in real life with real people. Our life on computers is more vicarious. There can be many obstacles (scriptures would call them 'stumblingblocks') to finding the right person and then marrying them. Satan would have us substitute most any thing in lieu of what we should at a given age or stage in life. I feel that it is important to socialize and date "as early" as one can (outsie of my wife, my best friend married after his mission, but when his bride was but 15--which is a bit young). They didn't have children at all until she was in her twenties. However, socially, mentally, emotionally, she is somewhat still a 15-year old in many respects. Six children later, to be sure, she has grown in many respects, but in other respects, she will never completely 'grow up'! I was 26 and my wife 19 when we married. Emotionally we were about the same 'age' at that time. Two or three periods in our marriage, I have felt the difference much more accutely than at other times. But, by-and-large, in so many respects, we are both "on the same page" currently. I will confess that my children have raised me as much (if not more) than I "raised" them. Also, my father's death four years ago made me (finally) an "orphan". It has helped me to mature further, not having the previous generation to fall back on. But, even at age 54, in so many ways, I am still trying to "grow up". Don't know if I'll arrive completely before I die. Hope to. Working to. From Proverbs we have..."To every season, there is a time for every purpose under heaven." One's youth is, as much as one can influence it, the time to mix, mingle, socialize, date, and hopefully, find one with whom one can feel appropriately "matched" We feel both pressure from others, as well as applying to ourselves by ourselves. As much as possible, while doing all one can and should do to get married in the years when one is in their twenties, hopefully, in their 'early 20's', if one can somehow, somewhat succeed at being cheerfully slightly detached, and patient with themself, others and the process, while "gaming" it wisely best they can to their advantage or to personal success in meeting and marrying the "right person", I would encourage those in that time period, and approaching it, or even 'after it', if they have not yet married, to try to be as 'hopefully and cheerfully optimistic' ('full of faith') regarding themself and others, they can, I believe, greatly increase and enhance their chances of 'personal success' in meeting and marrying the 'right person' for eternity. I have seen and or known some who settled for less. Girls, both those who served missions, and others who didn't, and guys too, who 'gave up hope', and settle for something far less than they should have or 'had to' (in my opinion, at least), and either 'married' a non-member, an apostate, or got themselves into homosexual relationships, that it caused me, and I'm sure, their family and friends, (and ultimately themselves) great sorrow, pain, and disappointment. One of the things about 'enduring to the end' includes 'NOT being 'Overcome' by the world'. The Lord, in the scriptures, repeatedly encourages us to 'overcome the world' and not to be 'overcome' by it. When one loses hope, of finding a worthy spouse, too many, too often, settle for 'second best', or far worse, even. And some 'get there' (seem to have a good, even a 'very good' spouse), and then "blow it". We have a sister in our ward who, apparently, for a second time (at least), seems to have cheated on her husband, and is in the process of divorce, and going for a guy who is best described as a 'pirate' type. Wow! I've seen so many "trade down" (way down) in the spouse (or 'significant other') they go for! That is why it is so important to do all in your power to try to find the best possible mate for yourself, and to marry them properly! (In the Temple, of course). But doing ALL of the things leading to that in personal preparation is most important. Becoming the kind of person you can and should be, is every bit (if not much more) important than finding 'Mr or Miss 'RIGHT''! And, by this, I do not mean a 'dry, disapproving and dour and sour', overly demanding and overly critical sourpuss!' The world has far too many of those already. And, for those who are 'more intelligent' than average, it can be especially hard, to reconcile their expectations with their ability to keep an even keel in their minds, emotions, and life! But, I believe, just as we have to persuade, entice, encourage, and help along others to get them to go and do what we want them to do, we have to do this ALSO with ourSELVES! Getting and keeping 'down' on ourselves is a problem most people have, to some extent or another, in their life. I've often and sometimes for a VERY LONG time had that problem with myself. We need to both expect a lot of ourselves AND be forgiving and to even 'encourage' ourself and find ways to 'entice' one's self to do that which is right. Self-incrimination, and recrimination, going over and over and over not only the mistakes we have made, but make DAILY, does little if any good in helping ourselves! Making the best choices one can, getting up and 'doing' that which we should 'best we can', and mentally 'rewarding' ourselves in our own minds, giving ourselves at least some kudos for where we improve, even if ever so gradually, is important. Finding and being with others who help to bring out the best in us, if one can find them, is most helpful. By working at finding and bringing out the best in others, and recognizing the best in others, while doing all one can and should to keep the commandments of God, especially regarding chastity and language, can help us find others who will bring the best out from and in us.

Argentina84, Tu parles le francais? Dis donc! C'est marron, ca!

Argentina84, As a father of seven daughters, and two sons, I can very much appreciate your sentiments. I have watched and tried to help my children do what they can and should so that they might taste of the happiness of marriage and having one's own family. My son, 27, is returning from Idaho this morning, as he went to date a girl he met on-line. I have a daughter, age 21, who seems to have a hard time getting boys to ask her on a date. I am not saying don't pursue professional or other paths, per se. But I have seen how "careerism" has become, even and especially among so many Latter-Day Saint youths and 'not-so-youngs' as an alternative to getting married and having a family. My youngest sister became a mining engineer, and then acquired an MBA. She is 41, and still unmarried. I think the 'careerism' pushed away possible marriage prospects. But I understand how being single with no apparent prospects has its great and difficult problems. I didn't marry myself until age 26. I felt old then, but realize now I was still quite young. Several sisters did not marry until 23 to 25 years of age. Do what you can to encourage good LDS young men to date you. That's much easier said than done. Sometimes, when the "good LDS young men" never or seldom ask girls out, one wonders how many or few there are of that genre. Doing what you can to be positive, optimistic, and enjoyable to be around is good. My brother has three girls, two who may never marry, in part to the "sour grapes" one use to often hear them spewing (from my sister-in-law, their mother) about young men and how they never got asked. One needs to try to figure a way of prompting and positioning prospects to succeed with you in a relationship. Again, I know, far easier said than done. Even when I was "in the driver's seat", as one supposes young men to be, how hard it was to meet and get young women who one would want to marry to go on dates with you. If the issue wasn't alcohol, I could see how a bunch of LDS bars might help young singles. Institute and young adult wards, etc, seem to be the best places to possibly meet other young singles who might qualify for and merit your attention and interest. My mother chewed me out two major times when I was a young adult for "being too picky" in whom I dated, and for not asking someone to marry me. She told me that I was "avoiding responsibility" and she reminded me how many children my father had by the time he was the age I was at then (grandchildren, per se, weren't a problem. I had five older siblings who were all married and had children. However, I was the only son to have any male offspring. Hence, the only one who could provide someone to carry on the family name). My bride was 19 (and I 26) when we married. Nine children and a mortgage paid off later, I beat my parents in both number of children (they had eight) and the time I had them in (I had eight children at a younger age overall than my Dad did)!! Not that it's a contest (like I told the judge, "No contest!") But, it helps assuage one's conscience to know that I was not a slackard in that regard. Finding the right person and marrying them the right way in the House of the Lord should still be your quest, hopefully. There are lot's of young men out there. They need to be persuaded to leave their computers and video games. I'm doing all I can to get my son off of his computer (I recently imposed a twice a week night (Tuesdays and Fridays) when he cannot get on his computer after 6:00pm. It seems to be helping a little! May God bless you and help you in finding a worthy mate to marry! —King David

ztod, Both scripturally and in personal experience, I've seen the truth that "mercy cannot rob justice" nor "justice rob mercy", each and all have their appropriate claim. Based upon what the starter of this thread gave, and only that, it appeared that her husband was totally unrepentant. If the man had shown true remorse for his sin, then I would probably advise her to possibly reconsider. I have seen neighbors, relatives, and others who have gone through these types of things. Do I have my sins? Absolutely. Am I sorry for them and working to repent of them? Indeed I am. Do I yearn for mercy for myself, more than justice? Yes. But if most in a Church or a nation are unfaithful, and want others to wink at their indiscretions RATHER THAN REPENT, that is what I am gathering many posters here seem to be suggesting, I am adamantly opposed at concealing sins by either the offending or offended party, and leaving unrepented sins unrepented of (poor grammar, but you get the point). I am for repentance. But I am for true repentance, not just feigned (pretended). And if there is no sorrow for sin, there is no repentance. What do you think Isaiah meant, speaking for the Lord, when he wrote this— "...thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass"? —Isaiah 48:4 You know, don't you, that that scripture is addressing MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH!?! And, from the description he gives, the people he is referring to aren't only "cool cucumbers", they are COLD individuals. They don't turn their head, they don't raise an eyebrow, implying "It's not that big a thing. Lots of people (even other members of the Church do it). Why all the fuss? Look at me, I'm unruffled by this!" The problem was prevalent in the time of Jeremiah (Lehi). Jeremiah wrote for the Lord— 7 How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, .... when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses. 8 They were as fed horses in the morning: every one neighed after his neighbour's wife. 9 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: and shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this? —Jeremiah 5:7 - 9 And why did the Lord say this of our day? And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. —Matthew 24:12 Hardened. The individual committing the sin hardens themselves. They don't repent, and thereby harden themselves even further. The love they had of a spouse, previously, hardens. Just like a woman in our ward (who still attends church) whose teenage daughter will not speak to her, because she has abandoned her husband for a lover (and so many don't even trade "up", the fools mostly all trade "down" big time)! So, yes, the affection of even children is hardened, as they try to protect their tender hearts from further disappointment and jarring. I have long been against divorce, and largely remain so. But since my early years, I have seen so many, many of the Saints who have been unfaithful to each other in their marriages. Nephi's younger brother, Jacob, pointed out this Nephite sin in just the 2nd generation in their new promised land. And, he pointed out, too, the faithful hearts of their sworn enemies, the Lamanites, in regards to their wives and children. I do not doubt that this is one of the big reasons why the Nephites were ultimately destroyed (among others). Forgiveness is not automatic. And, I believe that a spouse can forgive their spouse something at times, and not have to necessarily remain married to them. I do not advocate it per se. But I have seen people forgive ex-spouses, but not stay with them or remarry them. Yes, to some extent or another, all of us are hypocrites. But that fact does not justify other things. Too many spouses who cheat do it again. I would recommend forgiving them and staying with them if they are sorrowful about their sin, and work to repent. But if they are totally or mostly unrepentant, I see no obligation whatsoever, nor wisdom, for a spouse to continue to abide with that kind of a situation. Do you?

NateHowe, Again, I do not disagree with you, per se. I believe this scripture, "Inasmuch as men do good they shall in no wise lose their reward." Also, I have found that things that reinforce, though they do no supply nor supplant, my testimony that God is the one directing us, when I find some of the reasons or benefits of obedience, my conviction is steeled more, and my resolve is increased. My mother taught me, and repeated often what we learn elsewhere. About Adam obeying God's commandment to offer sacrifices, not knowing why. But just because God had commanded. I just had a discussion with two of my daughters tonight about a "commandment" I gave them a month ago, with a corresponding blessing and cursing. The blessing was that if they made their beds and cleaned their rooms each day, they would have a neat, orderly room. The cursing I promised was that I would charge each and everyone of my children living at home (ranging from a 27-year old to a 7-year old), they would be charged a daily rent according to their ability to pay (ranges from 25¢ for the 7-year old to $10.00 to the 27-year old. I assessed two teenage daughters their rent this morning, when, once again, I found their room not cleaned, with ample reminders before I did this. They were both upset, the older of the two especially. She said that I had approached things the wrong way with them. She said she felt I was angry and contentious. I was indeed upset. If being firm and upset is contentious, then charge me (along with God) as being contentious. After the older one stormed downstairs after paying the "rent", I called her back up again and sat her and her 14-year old sister down. I explained to them in various ways why, again, I was charging the rent. It was not for me to get money from them. I demanded, however, they pay me the money (some was previously assessed), because I knew if I did not demand it sternly, they would avoid and evade, and try to get out of paying it until I forgot or forgave. Again, the paltry amount I had them pay, is relatively "nothing" to me. But I knew it would be painful to them. I have affixed a penalty to not keeping their room clean so that they will hopefully develop (finally) a habit of cleaning up after themselves on a daily basis. I believe that God likewise penalizes us, not that he wants to see us be pained, but because he wants us to learn. I pointed out to them where in both life and in the scriptures God allows bad things to happen to us both to teach us, and even when punishing us, to teach us, and hopefully get us to repent and turn to him. I am sure that many a parent will see my efforts here as being barbaric or too harsh. I think not. My daughters were reconciled to me and to my "punishment" when I fully explained it to them. They came over to my side, it appeared. I believe they will do much better now. I hope so. I hate being the "bad cop". But I feel that "tough love" like this is more important than keeping a warm fuzzy relationship based mostly on indulging children and spoiling them into undisciplined individuals. God is love. God also punishes his children when they won't repent. And, sometimes, even after they do, he teaches them that obedience is better than disobedience then repentance (Alma the Elder & his people before the reunification with the main body of Nephites, and the people of Limhi, are two prime examples of people subjected to a "lesson" even after they had repented). My wife and I have nine children. Two are married, each with one child, and another on the way. Two others are away from home also. Five are still at home. So far, they've all been and remained true to the faith. Working, teaching and praying that they will remain so, and that they will have and build families that are also so. I have diligently strived to teach my family by both precept and example to do what is right. I have found that if I can persuade someone to exercise a behavior (obey a principle), that they often gain a testimony from being obedient, regardless of their reason for obeying to begin with. They will often develop purer motives for obedience, because many examples show us that individuals and groups are more likely to justify their behaviors and develop or adapt their beliefs around their behaviors, than they are to necessarily always get their behaviors to rise to their ideals. —KingDavid

NateHowe, Intent is certainly ultimately important in what we do. However, one must note that the "law irrevocably decreed" part from the D&C makes it clear that one is blessed when one obeys. And, it does not say that one is blessed either because or not because of the reason/s they obeyed. As someone who is now 54, I find it interesting that my Catholic friend who is in his mid/to-late 40's told me just last week that he gave up caffeine drinks last spring. He was a big Pepsi drinker for many years. He says that he's not quite as sharp or quick now as he was when he drank. He hasn't told me otherwise, but I suspect there were drawbacks to his disobdience of this commandment, even though he has never technically covenanted to keep this commandment. If I don't jump off a cliff for one reason or another, the benefits are the same. Same may be true in regards to the Word of Wisdom. One could argue, NateHowe, as many have and do in the Church, that the Word of Wisdom only covers "hot drinks" (i.e., coffee and tea). However, should one consume products with comparable or even higher amounts of caffeine, etc, the detrimental consequences would be the same. Therefore, I keep the Word of Wisdom both because it was given of God (and was not made a "commandment" per se, until early during the presidency of Heber J. Grant) AND because it is healthy to do. It points me in the direction of doing things that will blesh this tabernacle of flesh and bone we each dwell in. —KingDavid